Tavistock Re-opening News

[yorksrob]

I’m not disagreeing. But there’s 4 buses an hour now, which stop at lots of places, so it’s not like an express coach there isn’t possible.

As I mentioned earlier on, buses in my experience take around twice as long as the equivalent train service. Yes, some of that's stopping a lot but a lot's to do with traffic, road layout etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would the number of trains per hour be proposed on this aspirational project?

 

[Bald Rick]

As I mentioned earlier on, buses in my experience take around twice as long as the equivalent train service.

Yes, in your experience, and of course that is usually true. The point is that, in this very specific example, an express coach wouldn’t take twice as long as the train, in fact it wouldn’t be far off the same time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2023 ==

What would the number of trains per hour be proposed on this aspirational project?

one

 

[Xavi]

I’m not disagreeing. But there’s 4 buses an hour now, which stop at lots of places, so it’s not like an express coach there isn’t possible.

A regular bus every 15 minutes (which there is already) is more attractive to most users than an hourly express coach once an hour whatever the journey time saving. Therefore, likely that a coach service commencing at Christmas, ends by Easter.

 

[heathrowrail]

I wonder what will happen first the line to Tavistock ever seeing a train or Plymouth City Airport reopening.

 

[341o2]

Wasn't Portished supposed to reopen in '98 or '99. I was following that quite closely at the time...anyway, any day now

just like Totton to Marchwood

 

[RPI]

I’m not disagreeing. But there’s 4 buses an hour now, which stop at lots of places, so it’s not like an express coach there isn’t possible.

It is possible, but people as rule won't leave their cars at home for a bus/coach, but they will for a train.

 

[The exile]

It is possible, but people as rule won't leave their cars at home for a bus/coach, but they will for a train.

…or tram (not that it’s relevant in this case).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is possible, but people as rule won't leave their cars at home for a bus/coach, but they will for a train.

Does this thought still hold good when the train service is only hourly?

 

[nw1]

Does this thought still hold good when the train service is only hourly?

Would somewhere like Tavistock, or any other similar-sized town, justify more than an hourly service though?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2023 ==

Lots, nationwide.

And that is the point. A half hourly non stop coach from central Tavistock to Plymouth station (perhaps with a call on the Tavistock Rd at Derriford for the hospital), that is linked to the national fares system (buy online or at a machine before you travel) is entirely possible.

This is what we don't do in the UK very well for some reason - properly integrated, "railway-like" fast bus/coach services, operated by the railway itself, run from the station, and with limited stops.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

 Okehampton is smaller than Tavistock has a fast dual carriageway to Exeter suitable for an 'express coach' and the city is bus lane central. Yet the railway was deemed suitable for reopening - yes the track was intact but required complete relaying (£40m) plus the undisclosed purchase price of the assets. I regard it as a good use of taxpayers' money given its success. All the evidence points to folk ditching their cars for a train (or tram) but rarely for a bus or coach. It has also given Okehampton a welcome boost with new visitors.

Tavistock meanwhile has to contend with the heavily congested and tortuous A386 - the only realistic route into Plymouth. The only bus lanes are a 1/2 mile section between Derriford and Crownhill - and are pretty useless because there are too many conflicting movements across them. The bus schedules (down to 3 a hour now) have been progressively lengthened over the years to cope with congestion. I would love to have one of these magical express coaches that can do the journey in 40mins in the peak ( I see the estimate has been upped from 25mins in the previous outing of this topic). Declaration of interest - I have a house in Tavistock!

 

[Xavi]

Does this thought still hold good when the train service is only hourly?

Judging by Okehampton, yes.

 

[uglymonkey]

if you know the hourly times and plan for it ( get to station/ dropped off 10 minutes before departure, it's fine. Problem is if you miss it by 5 minutes, ( or worse its cancelled) you've got 55 minutes to wait for the next one!!

 

[nw1]

A simpler solution might be to implement a split at Bere Alston with or without signalling protection of the junction (although this then introduces a further traincrew productivity cost). Whether GWR could find the additional fleet to cater for the increased traffic would also have to be addressed.

This would be a perfect use of a 2x153 formation, at a guess - though not sure if GWR have any of those anymore.

 

[Nodding Cat Ch]

Spotted at Okehampton Station.... Those were the days

 

[A0]

 Okehampton is smaller than Tavistock has a fast dual carriageway to Exeter suitable for an 'express coach' and the city is bus lane central. Yet the railway was deemed suitable for reopening - yes the track was intact but required complete relaying (£40m) plus the undisclosed purchase price of the assets. I regard it as a good use of taxpayers' money given its success. All the evidence points to folk ditching their cars for a train (or tram) but rarely for a bus or coach. It has also given Okehampton a welcome boost with new visitors.

Tavistock meanwhile has to contend with the heavily congested and tortuous A386 - the only realistic route into Plymouth. The only bus lanes are a 1/2 mile section between Derriford and Crownhill - and are pretty useless because there are too many conflicting movements across them. The bus schedules (down to 3 a hour now) have been progressively lengthened over the years to cope with congestion. I would love to have one of these magical express coaches that can do the journey in 40mins in the peak ( I see the estimate has been upped from 25mins in the previous outing of this topic). Declaration of interest - I have a house in Tavistock!

I'll restate the point I made upthread:

There are some pretty big differences between those two, starting with Tavistock's nearest station is only 5 miles away at Gunnislake, whereas for Okehampton you were looking at Crediton or Exeter itself, both ~ 20 miles away.

You can drive from Tavistock to Gunnislake station in 15 minutes, which is what many towns up and down the country have to their nearest station. Okehampton to Crediton is double that.

 

[edwin_m]

View attachment 140631

Spotted at Okehampton Station.... Those were the days

Noting various postings above, the routes shown as double thin lines would appear to be advertised rail-bus connections.

 

[westv]

Noting various postings above, the routes shown as double thin lines would appear to be advertised rail-bus connections.

How strange. I just had a notification that you were quoting a post I made - even though I hadn't made any in this thread.

 

[edwin_m]

How strange. I just had a notification that you were quoting a post I made - even though I hadn't made any in this thread.

I hit "Quote+" to quote you in another thread, then didn't because the point I intended to make was made in a later post. Then when I quoted someone else in this thread, your quote appeared too, until I deleted it immediately after posting.

 

[westv]

I hit "Quote+" to quote you in another thread, then didn't because the point I intended to make was made in a later post. Then when I quoted someone else in this thread, your quote appeared too, until I deleted it immediately after posting.

Aha! That explains it. Thanks.

 

[deltic08]

 Okehampton is smaller than Tavistock has a fast dual carriageway to Exeter suitable for an 'express coach' and the city is bus lane central. Yet the railway was deemed suitable for reopening - yes the track was intact but required complete relaying (£40m) plus the undisclosed purchase price of the assets. I regard it as a good use of taxpayers' money given its success. All the evidence points to folk ditching their cars for a train (or tram) but rarely for a bus or coach. It has also given Okehampton a welcome boost with new visitors.

£40m is a snip these days and the Government should be doing more to connect communities by rail instead of land take road/capacity improvements costing millions. After all, the Government waste £40m every week housing illegal immigrants.
By the time the Government get around to laying track to Tavistock, inflation will have killed it even though the case for reinstatement is still relevant.

 

[uglymonkey]

I first read a proposal to reopen in Rail magazine! So it's long time coming!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2023 ==

In about 1991 I should have said!

 

[Brush 4]

Creative inertia in Sir Humphrey speak.....

 

[DDB]

I did wonder about that about a new commuter from Tavistock to Plymouth, would feel each morning for a quick diversion to Gunnislake on the way to work and back! Not exactly the recipe to encourage commuting!

I wouldn't send the Tavistock via Gunnislake. I would send the Gunnislake via Tavistock. This wouldn't please the Gunnislake comuter but it is a smaller place and if the frequency is increased to hourly it might be better overall for them.

 

[30907]

There are some pretty big differences between those two, starting with Tavistock's nearest station is only 5 miles away at Gunnislake, whereas for Okehampton you were looking at Crediton or Exeter itself, both ~ 20 miles away.

You can drive from Tavistock to Gunnislake station in 15 minutes, which is what many towns up and down the country have to their nearest station. Okehampton to Crediton is double that.

Nobody would consider driving (or bussing) from Tavistock to Gunnislake to head for Plymouth. They might conceivably go for Bere Alston which is 5min further but halves the train journey.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

£40m is a snip these days and the Government should be doing more to connect communities by rail instead of land take road/capacity improvements costing millions.

That is the problem when people become inured to many millions of pounds as being some sort of norm. You can be sure that the Treasury will do all that it can to rein in any what is seen as profligate spending.

 

[Topological]

That is the problem when people become inured to many millions of pounds as being some sort of norm. You can be sure that the Treasury will do all that it can to rein in any what is seen as profligate spending.

Rather depends on the scale of what is being talked about though.

£40m for a holiday is doable, but I doubt that most people will ever go for such a trip. Likewise, gold plating your car would be a profligate use of £40m

However, for the government where the revenues are also typically measured in billions, £0.04 billion becomes a bit more of a rounding question rather than profligacy.

I suspect when we say £40m is good value it likely is, but it does not mean any of us would think lightly of spending £40k never mind £40m.

 

[zwk500]

I suspect when we say £40m is good value it likely is, but it does not mean any of us would think lightly of spending £40k never mind £40m.

£40m is only good value if the return on the investment gives a return. the DfT defines a 'High' value for money rating as a BCR of 2 to 4, so Tavistock would need to generate £80-160m over the assessment life to be seen as good value for £40m.

 

[Bald Rick]

Okehampton is smaller than Tavistock has a fast dual carriageway to Exeter suitable for an 'express coach' and the city is bus lane central. Yet the railway was deemed suitable for reopening - yes the track was intact but required complete relaying (£40m) plus the undisclosed purchase price of the assets.

It’s a fair challenge. Whilst the distance is greater, the rail journey Plymouth - Tavistock would be roughly the same time as Exeter St David’s - Okehampton, whilst the Tavistock road journey would be longer. However it’s not the benefits side of the equation that is the issue, it’s the other side….

The three main differences are:

1) Okehampton was an existing and ‘active’ railway, and therefore needed no primary consent to reopen. Tavistock is not, which costs time (lots of it), and time=money.

2) Okehampton was around £40m (+ £1). Tavistock would be 3-4 times that, with similar forecast passenger numbers.

3) Okehampton fell very fortunately into a spot where there was industry political imperative to show it could do something quickly, and political political imperative to show delivery of policy. Because of (1) above it had the opportunity to deliver quickly, and was therefore chosen. Tavistock does not have that opportunity.

 

[Xavi]

It’s a fair challenge. Whilst the distance is greater, the rail journey Plymouth - Tavistock would be roughly the same time as Exeter St David’s - Okehampton, whilst the Tavistock road journey would be longer. However it’s not the benefits side of the equation that is the issue, it’s the other side….

The three main differences are:

1) Okehampton was an existing and ‘active’ railway, and therefore needed no primary consent to reopen. Tavistock is not, which costs time (lots of it), and time=money.

2) Okehampton was around £40m (+ £1). Tavistock would be 3-4 times that, with similar forecast passenger numbers.

3) Okehampton fell very fortunately into a spot where there was industry political imperative to show it could do something quickly, and political political imperative to show delivery of policy. Because of (1) above it had the opportunity to deliver quickly, and was therefore chosen. Tavistock does not have that opportunity.

1 and 3 are very true and have been mentioned previously. The logic that says Tavistock (or other UK infrastructure projects) is too expensive needs challenging.