• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Tavistock Re-opening: how should the line be served and could the line be extended beyond Tavistock?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Matey

Member
Joined
18 Oct 2021
Messages
113
Location
Okehampton
Moderator note: Split from
I wonder what a totally independent loading and structural condition survey of Meldon viaduct would reveal.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
2,132
I wonder what a totally independent loading and structual condition survey of Meldon viaduct would reveal.
Echoes of Ribblehead? (or Iraq WMD Dossier??) First decide the 'required' answer?
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
I wonder what a totally independent loading and structual condition survey of Meldon viaduct would reveal.

Now why would you wonder that ?.......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Echoes of Ribblehead? (or Iraq WMD Dossier??) First decide the 'required' answer?

Given it's been out of railway use for over half a century, I'd bet significantly worse than Ribblehead.
 

Sir Felix Pole

Established Member
Joined
21 Oct 2012
Messages
2,189
Location
Wilmslow
It is a mystery what the 'signalling alterations' at Bere Alston are - there isn't any - only a crew worked GF. Presumably some telecomm work - GSM-R or something? There has been work to upgrade the two level xings between Calstock and Gunnislake but no impact on Tavistock.
 

DDB

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
727
I wonder what a totally independent loading and structual condition survey of Meldon viaduct would reveal.
It would say it isn't relevant to reopening Tavistock to Plymouth! Get that open first as it should be both cheaper and provide lots of benefit. See how that goes and how much the good people of Tavistock use the service before thinking of extending any further.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,692
Location
Nottingham
It is a mystery what the 'signalling alterations' at Bere Alston are - there isn't any - only a crew worked GF. Presumably some telecomm work - GSM-R or something? There has been work to upgrade the two level xings between Calstock and Gunnislake but no impact on Tavistock.
Currently there can only be one train north of the junction at St Budeaux. Providing a reasonable frequency to Tavistock and also a service to Gunnislake would need there to be two. The simplest arrangement would probably be to "lock in" a train for the day on the Bere Alston to Gunnislake section, including a second platform at Bere Alston, and have Gunnislake passenger change there.
 

Sir Felix Pole

Established Member
Joined
21 Oct 2012
Messages
2,189
Location
Wilmslow
Currently there can only be one train north of the junction at St Budeaux. Providing a reasonable frequency to Tavistock and also a service to Gunnislake would need there to be two. The simplest arrangement would probably be to "lock in" a train for the day on the Bere Alston to Gunnislake section, including a second platform at Bere Alston, and have Gunnislake passenger change there.
Indeed - I was wondering what the preliminary work 'already undertaken' mentioned in the article was - there is no visible evidence.
 

Matey

Member
Joined
18 Oct 2021
Messages
113
Location
Okehampton
It would say it isn't relevant to reopening Tavistock to Plymouth! Get that open first as it should be both cheaper and provide lots of benefit. See how that goes and how much the good people of Tavistock use the service before thinking of extending any further.
On the contrary. If the the proposed route for reopening Tavistock to Plymouth takes place, with a new station constructed on a different site at Tavistock; a resultant tortuous route to Okehampton will never be built.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
On the contrary. If the the proposed route for reopening Tavistock to Plymouth takes place, with a new station constructed on a different site at Tavistock; a resultant tortuous route to Okehampton will never be built.
Think you're right there. the cost would be astronomical.
 

MrC

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2009
Messages
218
Currently there can only be one train north of the junction at St Budeaux. Providing a reasonable frequency to Tavistock and also a service to Gunnislake would need there to be two. The simplest arrangement would probably be to "lock in" a train for the day on the Bere Alston to Gunnislake section, including a second platform at Bere Alston, and have Gunnislake passenger change there.
While that would be the simplest operationally it would then involve Gunnislake users crossing from one platform to the other which would a) probably cost a lot (£m) to cater for modern regs around persons with impaired mobility, and b) add time & hassle to the already tortuously slow Gunnislake <-> Plymouth service.

A simpler solution might be to implement a split at Bere Alston with or without signalling protection of the junction (although this then introduces a further traincrew productivity cost). Whether GWR could find the additional fleet to cater for the increased traffic would also have to be addressed.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,692
Location
Nottingham
On the contrary. If the the proposed route for reopening Tavistock to Plymouth takes place, with a new station constructed on a different site at Tavistock; a resultant tortuous route to Okehampton will never be built.
Not sure what point you're trying to make here. The proposed station at Tavistock is at the edge of the town, on the former route just before the formation is obstructed by a house. So it doesn't significantly obstruct a further extension to Okehampton, which would have to deal with that house as the first of (no doubt) many challenges.
 

Matey

Member
Joined
18 Oct 2021
Messages
113
Location
Okehampton
Not sure what point you're trying to make here. The proposed station at Tavistock is at the edge of the town, on the former route just before the formation is obstructed by a house. So it doesn't significantly obstruct a further extension to Okehampton, which would have to deal with that house as the first of (no doubt) many challenges.
The big if is whether the site of a new station would allow further track extension towards Okhampton to be made without further disruption and cost before even beginning to relay the old route eastwards. My original posting regarding Meldon Viaduct was more of a muse as to why BR, or the powers that be, were adamant that the viaduct was no longer safe for traffic. Regretfully, I don't believe that Okehampton and Tavistock will be linked by rail again.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
The big if is whether the site of a new station would allow further track extension towards Okhampton to be made without further disruption and cost before even beginning to relay the old route eastwards. My original posting regarding Meldon Viaduct was more of a muse as to why BR, or the powers that be, were adamant that the viaduct was no longer safe for traffic. Regretfully, I don't believe that Okehampton and Tavistock will be linked by rail again.
Didn't concern about Meldon Viaduct predate BR by some years? I seem to recall the speed limit was imposed by the LSWR and that it was the subject of emergency strengthening during WW2 (Southern Railway) so ammunition trains could run to Devonport Dockyard. I think there were concerns about the adequacy of the initial design as well as subsequent deterioration.
 

rower40

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2008
Messages
583
Could the signalling at Bere Alston be based on the Maidenhead-BourneEnd-Marlow model? Token unlocks the ground frame, allowing a train to be locked in to the Calstock (Marlow) branch.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,164
Location
West Wiltshire
While that would be the simplest operationally it would then involve Gunnislake users crossing from one platform to the other which would a) probably cost a lot (£m) to cater for modern regs around persons with impaired mobility, and b) add time & hassle to the already tortuously slow Gunnislake <-> Plymouth service.

A simpler solution might be to implement a split at Bere Alston with or without signalling protection of the junction (although this then introduces a further traincrew productivity cost). Whether GWR could find the additional fleet to cater for the increased traffic would also have to be addressed.
If going to rebuild to Tavistock with all the land acquisition etc, then probably best to move Bere Alston station few hundred metres south, and build a spur direct to Gunnislake across the field. Much easier to have it split into two branches facing Plymouth than a line with reversals.

If you can build it as a V shaped platform between the two lines, with the access from top of V then avoid any need for expensive footbridges and lifts. Gives easy level interchange for passengers. Could even use current Gunnislake trackbed as part of an approach road.

As for signalling, would then just need signals protecting the new south junction where lines meet beyond the V, one signalling section going south, and from each platform, effectively one train on each branch. So each branch could then operate as a shuttle if required, although in practice likely to have trains alternating from Plymouth.
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
Not sure what point you're trying to make here. The proposed station at Tavistock is at the edge of the town, on the former route just before the formation is obstructed by a house. So it doesn't significantly obstruct a further extension to Okehampton, which would have to deal with that house as the first of (no doubt) many challenges.

Not just a house that will be the problem - the old formation crossed the A390 as it entered Tavistock and reinstating that bridge would be a major problem as it would easily be a low bridge which can be seen from the surviving abutments https://www.google.com/maps/@50.542...6hGwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

I'm not sure putting a low bridge on a main road would be acceptable nowadays.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,692
Location
Nottingham
Not just a house that will be the problem - the old formation crossed the A390 as it entered Tavistock and reinstating that bridge would be a major problem as it would easily be a low bridge which can be seen from the surviving abutments https://www.google.com/maps/@50.542...6hGwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

I'm not sure putting a low bridge on a main road would be acceptable nowadays.
These are just two of a huge number of constraints on the way to Okehampton. If it was extended the station would probably be removed anyway in favour of a site nearer the town centre. I see little point in trying to make the initial station provide for any extension.
 

uglymonkey

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
708
BR took one of the viaducts ( the oldest?)at Meldon OOU in about 1966 ? Before the through route closed as they thought it to weak.All traffic until the line closed used the other one. Track was in place in the viaduct until the early 90's ? For shunting at the quarry. I have seen a loco and string of wagons almost quarterway across from the valley below. It would never pass stringent modern standards of health and safety however.
 

Purple Train

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2022
Messages
2,466
Location
Exile or exile
What about sticking a Penryn-style second platform in at Bere Alston? Tavistock-Plymouth draws into existing platform, Gunnislake-Bere Alston draws up behind into new second platform, connection is made without the need to change physical platform, Plymouth train departs. The same could also be done at Bere Ferrers to provide a passing loop.

The more pressing issue in terms of whether the line should be reopened is whether it can compete with the existing Tavistock-Plymouth bus service. According to my Deepest Devon correspondent, the buses from Tavistock to Plymouth take about an hour and are as reliable as a mule with an attitude problem.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
The more pressing issue in terms of whether the line should be reopened is whether it can compete with the existing Tavistock-Plymouth bus service. According to my Deepest Devon correspondent, the buses from Tavistock to Plymouth take about an hour and are as reliable as a mule with an attitude problem.
Unfortunately the railway serves the river valley, some estates, the declining dockyard before arriving at the city centre of empty and derelict 1970s offices and shops. At the station you can err get the bus back to Tavistock for all the student accommodation, retail parks, main hospital and modern office developments, supermarkets and 99% of present day employment which is the other side of the a38.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,692
Location
Nottingham
What about sticking a Penryn-style second platform in at Bere Alston? Tavistock-Plymouth draws into existing platform, Gunnislake-Bere Alston draws up behind into new second platform, connection is made without the need to change physical platform, Plymouth train departs. The same could also be done at Bere Ferrers to provide a passing loop.
That would need some actual signals, whereas an arrangement where the Gunnislake train is locked into a different platform can be achieved just using tokens and ground frames (which would only need to be operated at the start and end of the day when the two trains would be coupled from and to Plymouth).
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Although more of a timetabling question, has it been decided as to what frequency the Tavistock trains will be?

I have tried looking at the consultancy report that was done years ago (perhaps the days of Blair's New Labour), but it never stated what frequency it was based on even though the modelling had been done.

Would a Newton Abbott/Plymouth - Tavistock calling all stations (including a reopened Plympton for when Plymouth and Devonport decide to bring back trams) every 60 minutes, with a portion for Gunnislake uncoupling/coupling at Bere Ferres every 2 hours be acceptable?
 

DDB

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
727
I think in a consultation document somewhere it was suggested that Tavistock would be hourly with the existing service continuing as well 2 hourly.

I assume some people that know what they ĺ doing have looked into it.

A locked in shuttle seems a non starter cost wise to me as you would need to change crews etc and they would be spending 50mins of each hour doing nothing of they do 1 train per hour.


Personally with my crayon set I would have two parallel unconnected tracks from Bere Alston to Tavistock keeping the existing Bere Alston station on the south side and not stop there between Tavistock and Gunnislake when passing on the North side.

I assume people in Gunnislake would want to travel to Tavistock as the nearest large town without having to change for a short journey. It would lengthen their journey to Plymouth but of the frequency was increased I suspect they would take that.

If it is the right place for a "passing loop" have a two platform station at Tavistock with all the signalling and pointwork there otherwise just a train crew operated groundframe. I assume at least one loop is needed somewhere but I assume further south
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
3,199
I think in a consultation document somewhere it was suggested that Tavistock would be hourly with the existing service continuing as well 2 hourly.

I assume some people that know what they ĺ doing have looked into it.

A locked in shuttle seems a non starter cost wise to me as you would need to change crews etc and they would be spending 50mins of each hour doing nothing of they do 1 train per hour.


Personally with my crayon set I would have two parallel unconnected tracks from Bere Alston to Tavistock keeping the existing Bere Alston station on the south side and not stop there between Tavistock and Gunnislake when passing on the North side.

I assume people in Gunnislake would want to travel to Tavistock as the nearest large town without having to change for a short journey. It would lengthen their journey to Plymouth but of the frequency was increased I suspect they would take that.

If it is the right place for a "passing loop" have a two platform station at Tavistock with all the signalling and pointwork there otherwise just a train crew operated groundframe. I assume at least one loop is needed somewhere but I assume further south

I think the only place people want to go, that has any revenue value to the railway, is Plymouth. Gunnislake-Plymouth via Tavistock will be a non-starter I think.

What would be the lowest cost / highest efficiency solution for a Gunnislake-Bere Alston connecting shuttle I wonder? It’s a pity Parry aren’t still in business but possibly a test bed for V(ery) L(ight) R(ail)?
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
21,969
Location
Airedale
IIRC the plan was for all the signalling to be at Bere A, and the 2-hourly Gunnislake would use the St Budeaux-Bere section while the Tavistock was north of Bere.

You can't do St Budeaux-Gunnislake and back inside an hour, which restricts the options considerably.

BTW Gunnislake Station-Tavistock is 15min by bus, so train wouldn't be competitive (it might be from Calstock).
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
The road is awful now. But how many bus priority interventions could you build for the cost of the railway extension? Bus extensions that would also help lots of other buses (and other users) and result in an express bus that served the hospital (with exchange to other services) and the city centre itself. The bus could also loop round Tavistock rather than make you climb a hill to catch it, or it could carry onto Okehampton to see if anyone really wants to do that….
 

uglymonkey

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
708
All that investment for just one train an hour, seems like overkill. Surely Tavistock is bigger and would generate more custom than the "branch" to gunnislake, especially when people realise Tavistock station may be nearer to them than Gunnislake?
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
All that investment for just one train an hour, seems like overkill. Surely Tavistock is bigger and would generate more custom than the "branch" to gunnislake, especially when people realise Tavistock station may be nearer to them than Gunnislake?
In other countries, in similar circumstances, the message would be simple; in order that the Tavistock reopening is approved, it will be necessary to close the Bere Alston to Gunnislake section of line which is hugely loss-making. The number of existing passengers on that short stretch who would be severely inconvenienced by having to go to Tavistock instead to catch a train to Plymouth would probably be small, but since Dr Beeching it's become a complete no-no to admit even a hundred yards of track should be abandoned. The Greater Good is an alien concept!
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
5,643
Location
The West Country
The number of existing passengers on that short stretch who would be severely inconvenienced by having to go to Tavistock instead to catch a train to Plymouth would probably be small,
Gunnislake and Calstock are both reasonably busy stations. The roads in the area are awful hence the branch’s survival.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The simplest arrangement would probably be to "lock in" a train for the day on the Bere Alston to Gunnislake section, including a second platform at Bere Alston, and have Gunnislake passenger change there.
Practical but I can’t see passengers wearing it. You only need to start having missed connections to persuade people into their cars.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top