Do National Rail have powers to prosecute?

[feudalhorn99]

Hi All,

I was intrigued by this article from a few years ago - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ving-cost-tickets-reporter-shows-easy-is.html - about the loopholes people were using to obtain railcards.

If someone was to use false details (a date of birth for instance) to obtain a railcard, which I accept is difficult now given the validation process in place, would NR be able to bring enforcement action, or does this only come from the rail companies once they have found that the person is ineligible for the railcard they are using?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi All,

I was intrigued by this article from a few years ago - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ving-cost-tickets-reporter-shows-easy-is.html - about the loopholes people were using to obtain railcards.

If someone was to use false details (a date of birth for instance) to obtain a railcard, which I accept is difficult now given the validation process in place, would NR be able to bring enforcement action, or does this only come from the rail companies once they have found that the person is ineligible for the railcard they are using?

Any person or company could bring a fraud prosecution, which is what this basically is - a deliberate misrepresentation of your age to gain a benefit you aren’t entitled to.

Every individual has the “power” to bring a private prosecution. Whether they have the will or means is a separate issue.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It sounds as if this is hypothetical, but if someone was really in this position, I think the pragmatic advice would be to put the Railcard away and not use it. Realistically, the railway will probably not be very interested in someone having a dodgy Railcard if it's not ever used to get a cheap ticket. But as we see here from time to time, if it's been used to get a ticket the traveller wasn't entitled to, they pursue this and a fine or out of court settlement follows.

 

[feudalhorn99]

Thank you for the replies, both - I suppose my question was more focused on how the NR/rail companies would know that the railcard was dodgy if someone had managed to successfully exploit a loophole?

 

[clagmonster]

Would a fraud offence require actually using the railcard to be complete? Just obtaining the railcard without using it sees no good nor service obtained nor does the railway incur a loss.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would a fraud offence require actually using the railcard to be complete? Just obtaining the railcard without using it sees no good nor service obtained nor does the railway incur a loss.

You do not have to actually receive the advantage, or cause an actual loss, to have committed an offence. The *intent* to cause one of those things is all that's required. If I walk up to a bank with a fake driving licence in your name and ask for £25,000 from your account, and I'm rumbled before I get my hands on the cash, I'm still guilty of the offence of fraud.

 

[island]

You do not have to actually receive the advantage, or cause an actual loss, to have committed an offence. The *intent* to cause one of those things is all that's required. If I walk up to a bank with a fake driving licence in your name and ask for £25,000 from your account, and I'm rumbled before I get my hands on the cash, I'm still guilty of the offence of fraud.

Attempted fraud, but yes.

The Criminal Attempts Act 1981 makes attempting to commit an indictable offence a separate offence itself.

 

[feudalhorn99]

You do not have to actually receive the advantage, or cause an actual loss, to have committed an offence. The *intent* to cause one of those things is all that's required. If I walk up to a bank with a fake driving licence in your name and ask for £25,000 from your account, and I'm rumbled before I get my hands on the cash, I'm still guilty of the offence of fraud.

Yes, agreed, but how would NR or the rail companies found out about the dodgy railcard if it has passed the verification process and been obtained?

What I mean is, do NR have the means to track down these types of railcards, even if their verification process has been passed, or is the case that a rail company ticket inspector would be the one to do this if they queried say age or eligibility etc.?

 

[185]

Hi All,

I was intrigued by this article from a few years ago - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ving-cost-tickets-reporter-shows-easy-is.html

If I recall, it was suggested the journalist got much of the initial story from members of staff - this highlights how the higher echelons of management within the railway had previously ignored those staff who previously raised the issue. Lazy RDG & TOC bosses shouldn't have waited until the tabloids ran the story. Even funnier was threatening the journalists with prosecution that didn't work...

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, agreed, but how would NR or the rail companies found out about the dodgy railcard if it has passed the verification process and been obtained?

What I mean is, do NR have the means to track down these types of railcards, even if their verification process has been passed, or is the case that a rail company ticket inspector would be the one to do this if they queried say age or eligibility etc.?

I think detection is much more likely on the train, in person, for age-related railcards - it has happened.

 

[Scousemouse]

I once used a loophole to get a student rail card.

Open university NUS card did not entitle you to one as they regard it part time

But you could use the NUS card to get an ISIC card which didn't have your university printed on it. And an ISIC card allowed you to get a railcard.......

Saved a fortune on tickets for nearly 15 years.

 

[Dai Corner]

I once used a loophole to get a student rail card.

Open university NUS card did not entitle you to one as they regard it part time

But you could use the NUS card to get an ISIC card which didn't have your university printed on it. And an ISIC card allowed you to get a railcard.......

Saved a fortune on tickets for nearly 15 years.

I'd say say that was committing fraud rather than exploiting a loophole?

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd say say that was committing fraud rather than exploiting a loophole?

A long time ago you get a 16-25 railcard merely by dint of having an ISIC card, so it's a loophole, and a very good one. Hearty congratulations to @Scousemouse!

 

[AndrewE]

I took the thread title at face value and what struck me was the similarity with the post office scandal. There a national body (which was presumed to know what it was doing) was allowed to use its own unchallengable evidence to prosecute, convict and ruin hundreds of completely innocent sub-postmasters.

Given what we read here about frontline "rail" staff and even company fare specialists getting things wrong, what are the chances of unjustified prosecutions?
Spot the similarities!

 

[Coolzac]

I think detection is much more likely on the train, in person, for age-related railcards - it has happened.

How would the staff check this? If someone has got a valid Railcard via a loophole, how would it be checked? You don't need to carry ID alongside a Railcard.

 

[greatkingrat]

How would the staff check this? If someone has got a valid Railcard via a loophole, how would it be checked? You don't need to carry ID alongside a Railcard.

In practice they can't, unless it is a particularly egregious example, like a 30 year old with a Senior Railcard.

 

[scrapy]

I've just attempted to buy a Senior Railcard on Trainline using a fake name, date of birth, photo and driving licence number. It let me get all the way to the payment page without any issues so presumably had I paid would have issued the digital railcard. (Fake driving licence number entered matched the fake name and date of birth). Given that this article is 5 years old, the loophole doesn't appear to have been closed.

 

[AlterEgo]

How would the staff check this? If someone has got a valid Railcard via a loophole, how would it be checked? You don't need to carry ID alongside a Railcard.

They withdraw the ticket and submit a TIR, the investigation happens away from the train.

 

[Coolzac]

They withdraw the ticket and submit a TIR, the investigation happens away from the train.

What is a TIR? How would they investigate?

 

[AlterEgo]

What is a TIR? How would they investigate?

A Travel Irregularity Report. They would withdraw the ticket and/or railcard (or capture its details) for further investigation. There have been instances reported on the forum.

 

[feudalhorn99]

I've just attempted to buy a Senior Railcard on Trainline using a fake name, date of birth, photo and driving licence number. It let me get all the way to the payment page without any issues so presumably had I paid would have issued the digital railcard. (Fake driving licence number entered matched the fake name and date of birth). Given that this article is 5 years old, the loophole doesn't appear to have been closed.

Say if you had completed the transaction and obtained the Senior Railcard using fraudulent details - do National Rail or the Trainline not have the means to cross check the fake driving licence number and DOB with the DVLA?

As the article at the top of the thread suggests, NR have sought to close this loophole so how would they do it in practice?

 

[Starmill]

How would the staff check this? If someone has got a valid Railcard via a loophole, how would it be checked? You don't need to carry ID alongside a Railcard.

It had been detected when the person has done something which makes it obvious they're using a card to which they weren't entitled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==

As the article at the top of the thread suggests, NR have sought to close this loophole so how would they do it in practice?

Applying a fake driving licence number doesn't really meet the definition of a loophole. Also Network Rail wouldn't be interested and I doubt Rail Delivery Group have the resources to file for this kind of prosecution.

 

[feudalhorn99]

It had been detected when the person has done something which makes it obvious they're using a card to which they weren't entitled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2023 ==


Applying a fake driving licence number doesn't really meet the definition of a loophole. Also Network Rail wouldn't be interested and I doubt Rail Delivery Group have the resources to file for this kind of prosecution.

Yes, using fake details is fraudulent rather than a ‘loophole’ but I was just using it as the Daily Mail story suggests.

Why would National Rail not be interested? - or is the onus on the rail companies to weed these fraudulently obtained railcards out?

 

[island]

Say if you had completed the transaction and obtained the Senior Railcard using fraudulent details - do National Rail or the Trainline not have the means to cross check the fake driving licence number and DOB with the DVLA?

No.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, using fake details is fraudulent rather than a ‘loophole’ but I was just using it as the Daily Mail story suggests.

Why would National Rail not be interested? - or is the onus on the rail companies to weed these fraudulently obtained railcards out?

As currently constituted, Network Rail are a business-to-business state-owned corporation. They obviously do have a role in consulting the public but they don't really deal in consumer transactions. Instead it would be a question for the train company who detected the fraud to choose how to proceed.

 

[Haywain]

Why would National Rail not be interested?

Because National Rail is a brand, not a business. Rail Delivery Group acts on behalf of the train operating companies but doesn't, as far as I am aware, have any investigative function.