Heritage railway electrification: Will it ever become a reality?

[edwin_m]

Thus it is possible to envisage electric traction running off batteries, only a little larger than those in cars, given adequate starting current, rather like the class 230's. There would be some adjustment to circuitry and control, as well as ancillaries. Any demand for third rail or OLE would be really only cosmetic, even the 200V (or tramway 550V) needed could mostly be better provided from batteries.

In principle that's possible for trains, although it would involve major changes to the control system which would require a lot of design effort as well as safety approvals. For vehicles built for the AC supply the batteries could replace the transformer, but for DC space would need to be found and the structure would have to be good enough to support the extra weight. This would all end up being a fairly drastic modification of what (given the small amount of preserved electric traction) may well be the only survivor of its type.

Trams on the other hand don't have much spare space. The traction resistors might be replaceable, but may not free enough volume for a worthwhile battery, and only at the cost of sacrificing the traditional controller (very visible and part of the tram experience) or interfacing it to a modern electronic drive. Unlike preserved trains, preserved trams may well run at speeds where the motor needs full line voltage, so a lower voltage solution won't work here unless the motors are modified/replaced too. Seeing as the tram preservation fraternity seems to have no problem safely providing the traditional overhead supply, and it doesn't have the actual or perceived risk issues of third rail, I can't see any of them attempting this sort of conversion.

 

[zwk500]

What if the heritage third rail was used to charge the onboard batteries rather than to power the heritage electric units outright? Rest of the line could simply be a plastic mock but certain sections being "live" but as mentioned only used to charge whilst on the go. Bluebell could stick it in the middle of Shapthorne Tunnel as no one would be daft enough to walk through the tunnel when the line isn't being used in service, this excludes when they have to do works as the line would have to be switched off.

If you were to do this, and it's a big if, the very last place you'd put such a live third rail would be in a tunnel. A short length with the train in motion won't do zip for the charge. Having individually live sections of third rail would be a absolute technical pain to maintain.
If you have batteries, you would install the chargers being trialled at Greenford (i.e. dedicated and switchable units in the 4-ft) in stations, and extend dwell times (which are less critical on a heritage railway). They will somewhat spoil the appearance of the station, but 95% of people don't stare into the 4ft anyway, so from platform level they'd be fairly easy to not notice.

I don't think that I said that it wouldn't be costly, just pointless.

It's a fairly reasonable interpretation that you did say it wouldn't be costly:

The reason why full 25kV OLE and 750V dc electrification will not be followed are the same as for the "real" railway; there isn't the volume of traffic to require it, not that it is unavoidably unsafe, or even costly.

 

[plarailfan]

How many volts, or amps or whatever, would it need to power a class 86 and three coaches to achieve 25mph ?
How much would a lineside power supply and catenary cost to install, say on a three mile preserved section of railway, some thing self contained, like Bury to Heywood, just a hypothetical example ? would it probably cost a £1 million, £10 million ? or even more than that ?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The question is, would it run further from Haywards Heath than Horsted Keynes?

Provided that the line is rebuilt between Haywards Heath and Horstead Keynes (especially at Ardingly where the line, going by plans drawn up by Bluebell Railway, is to be diverted on to a new alignment avoiding the cement works before joining the original route just before Lywood Tunnel), a resited station built at Ardingly (to the west of the original station) and a bridge installed to replace the lost Sheriff Mill viaduct. Then a heritage third rail could be installed to act as a fast charge along the route from Bluebells proposed Hayward Heath platform to East Grinstead with a certain number of "live" sections just to help keep the batteries topped up, this could be an issue between Horstead Keynes and Sheffield Park but having a "live" section somewhere between HK and SP might be enough to juice up the unit on a morning and to briefly top up on a late afternoon / early evening.

The question is, heritage railway electrification will it ever become a reality? The answer to that is yes, but only to charge the batteries on the units that are preserved as I cannot ever see proper, full on, live 24/7 third railing - it would cost too much but my suggestion of "live" sections with the rest being a plastic mock just to keep the third rail contacts level with the third rail would be the way to go. The perserved electric units that would be used are still running on electric albeit through a safer setup without ruining the experence.

 

[edwin_m]

I really don't think you can reasonably claim installation and maintenance of 25kV AC OHLE wouldn't be costly. The cost of installing a grid supply alone will be huge.

A grid supply that can only sustain a low current (such as a couple of locomotives at low speed) could be much cheaper. It might be similar to what is provided in some depots that service dual-voltage or bi-mode trains and they need to do a quick test on 25kV. As the current would be low, it wouldn't need to be connected to a major National Grid line like normal feeders, and use of static converters could ensure balance across the supply phases.

 

[eldomtom2]

The question is, heritage railway electrification will it ever become a reality? The answer to that is yes, but only to charge the batteries on the units that are preserved as I cannot ever see proper, full on, live 24/7 third railing - it would cost too much but my suggestion of "live" sections with the rest being a plastic mock just to keep the third rail contacts level with the third rail would be the way to go. The perserved electric units that would be used are still running on electric albeit through a safer setup without ruining the experence.

I don't think the ORR would like mixing real and fake third rail.

 

[infobleep]

Provided that the line is rebuilt between Haywards Heath and Horstead Keynes (especially at Ardingly where the line, going by plans drawn up by Bluebell Railway, is to be diverted on to a new alignment avoiding the cement works before joining the original route just before Lywood Tunnel), a resited station built at Ardingly (to the west of the original station) and a bridge installed to replace the lost Sheriff Mill viaduct. Then a heritage third rail could be installed to act as a fast charge along the route from Bluebells proposed Hayward Heath platform to East Grinstead with a certain number of "live" sections just to help keep the batteries topped up, this could be an issue between Horstead Keynes and Sheffield Park but having a "live" section somewhere between HK and SP might be enough to juice up the unit on a morning and to briefly top up on a late afternoon / early evening.

The question is, heritage railway electrification will it ever become a reality? The answer to that is yes, but only to charge the batteries on the units that are preserved as I cannot ever see proper, full on, live 24/7 third railing - it would cost too much but my suggestion of "live" sections with the rest being a plastic mock just to keep the third rail contacts level with the third rail would be the way to go. The perserved electric units that would be used are still running on electric albeit through a safer setup without ruining the experence.

As there was never electrification between Horstwad Keynes and Sheffield Park, I don't see the need there.

 

[WAO]

It's a fairly reasonable interpretation that you did say it wouldn't be costly:

The cost is irrelevant if the benefit is greater. It isn't.

WAO

 

[Falcon1200]

Bluebell could stick it in the middle of Sharpthorne Tunnel as no one would be daft enough to walk through the tunnel when the line isn't being used in service

I think you are overestimating the common sense of those who trespass on the railway! One of the fatalities I dealt with during my railway career was a deceased person found on a Sunday morning in Drumlanrig Tunnel (Dumfries/Kilmarnock line) having been struck by the last train on Saturday night, with the train driver being unaware.

I have to agree, sadly, that any preserved line being able to operate EMUs, especially 25kV stock, is fraught with difficulty, danger and expense, and therefore unlikely. It would be good instead to see preserved EMUs running on self-contained sections of the national network (such as the Lymington branch?) under strict conditions, but there are many factors against that as well, of course.

 

[341o2]

I can think of numerous issues, especially regarding OHLE
You would have to rebuild every overbridge.
Siting of the masts could be at the expense of sidings adjacent to the running line.
Environmental considerations. I imagine, for example, that the National Trust would be happy to see masts erected on the Swanage Railway next to Corfe Castle.
With 25KV, you don't have to touch the wires, just get close enough to be electrocuted. In the early days of the London Midland electrics, steam met electric at Crewe. A fireman died after going on top of a tender with a pricker.

 

[birchesgreen]

Trams on the other hand don't have much spare space. The traction resistors might be replaceable, but may not free enough volume for a worthwhile battery, and only at the cost of sacrificing the traditional controller (very visible and part of the tram experience) or interfacing it to a modern electronic drive.

Though interestingly enough there is a tram converted to battery operation on the Statfold Barn Railway.

 

[alf]

I went to a very well attended meeting at Woking of the Surrey branch of the Lyndon & Barnstaple Railway last Saturday.

The speaker was from the hard working group that has succeeded in buying many sections of the track bed from Barnstaple to the station hotel at Blackmoor.

In speculative mood he suggested that they were considering approaching the Seaton electric tramway for advice about
putting electric turbines on the local fast moving river which the trackbed adjoins in three places & operating trains electrically on the southern section of the line if they ever manage to get it all.

 

[Flying Phil]

An electric 2EPB or lightweight 503 is quite possible for a lot less than a steam loco's 10 year maintenance. Equally, a "battery pack" sited within a brake tender vehicle like the one newly built on the GCR would allow a wider range of stock to be used, from the Eden Valley's CEP's to the EPB's at East Kent, etc.

Such units would be very useful on major heritage railways, on the timetable "shoulders", where expensive steam haulage would be underused. EMU's often have comfortable or interesting traditional interiors.

It does need someone with significant but not massive resources to step in to a very topical field....

WAO

The use of the Diesel Brake Tender as a battery supply is a good idea ( If you thought that the wrong boiler on a 47xx created outrage then batteries in a 37 could be a walk in the park!) and could be extended so that a "steam" locomotive could have a tender full of batteries to either boil the water (What a horribly inefficient process!) or supply hidden traction motors.....IF we ever reach the situation where the use of fossil fuels is completely banned.

 

[341o2]

I went to a very well attended meeting at Woking of the Surrey branch of the Lyndon & Barnstaple Railway last Saturday.

The speaker was from the hard working group that has succeeded in buying many sections of the track bed from Barnstaple to the station hotel at Blackmoor.

In speculative mood he suggested that they were considering approaching the Seaton electric tramway for advice about
putting electric turbines on the local fast moving river which the trackbed adjoins in three places & operating trains electrically on the southern section of the line if they ever manage to get it all.

I would have thought battery electric propulsion would be better, being proven over 100 years ago, and cite Brush loco 16303, which is normally at the Amberley museum, but in 2022 paid a visit to Hythe Pier, same gauge as well, although I question whether it would be worth it owing to the isolation of the former Town station

 

[Irascible]

OLE would get nicked if there wasn't power running through it.

I suppose to be fair the Seaton Tramway is electric. Though apparently only 120 volts.

If there's no power in it it doesn't have to be made of something valuable, just something that can hold tension & not immediately wear out. Still a monster maintenance pain, I'd imagine.

People nicking the tramway cable would probably get in local news every now & then & doesn't, so I guess they're somewhat on top of it.

 

[Mothball]

People nicking the tramway cable would probably get in local news every now & then & doesn't, so I guess they're somewhat on top of it.

In the 13 years I've worked at a heritage tramway we have had 2 thefts, enough to eat up our reserves of cable for future extensions. At the time of our second extension copper rail bonds were welded to each joint for the current return, they gradually disappeared over time aswell.
Can't say I recall any other tramway museums loosing overhead in recent memory but it's certainly a risk that happens.

 

[mjc]

In the 13 years I've worked at a heritage tramway we have had 2 thefts, enough to eat up our reserves of cable for future extensions. At the time of our second extension copper rail bonds were welded to each joint for the current return, they gradually disappeared over time aswell.
Can't say I recall any other tramway museums loosing overhead in recent memory but it's certainly a risk that happens.

I’m guessing so may well be wrong, but aren’t the tramway museums generally a self contained ‘place’ which can be more easily fenced and secured than a heritage railway which is generally linear with miles and miles of boundary running through third-party owned land?

 

[Mothball]

I’m guessing so may well be wrong, but aren’t the tramway museums generally a self contained ‘place’ which can be more easily fenced and secured than a heritage railway which is generally linear with miles and miles of boundary running through third-party owned land?

It's a bit of a mixed bag of the tramways throughout the country, East Anglia, Beamish, Summerlee and Black Country are on there own self contained sites. Crich runs a fair length away from its "hub" however that has remoteness in its favour.
Us at Heaton Park and Birkenhead run through publicly accessible, pedestrian areas for the full length.

 

[Irascible]

I’m guessing so may well be wrong, but aren’t the tramway museums generally a self contained ‘place’ which can be more easily fenced and secured than a heritage railway which is generally linear with miles and miles of boundary running through third-party owned land?

The Seaton tramway definitely isn't, it's the southern 3 miles of the old branch. Includes a level crossing.

 

[308165]

Perhaps not an insurmountable issue but I've read two different light railway orders for heritage railways recently and both of them specifically prohibit electrification and limit the railways to using self powered vehicles.

 

[315801]

I think the mainline trials that were carried out with 379013 running on batteries with its pantograph down at a decent speed on the Greater Anglia lines proved that an EMU could the technology on a unit could be adapted to run without 25Kv AC or 750v Dc.

The pantograph was only raised to charge the batteries and whilst I do think that batteries will be the way we will be able to still ride preserved electric units running under power I'm not sure how I would describe my justification for it but I do think that preserved units could still be run on mainlines ( subject to the appropriate network permissions being given of course ).

If we look back to the class 71 locomotives they had 3rd rail and OHLE capability but the pantograph was only used in shunting yards were the 3rd rail was not in place for the safety of ground based shunting staff.

Based on the example of a class 71, could preserved units like say a class 313 or if a few are preserved some class 507 and 508 units, could they not have 1 of the trailer coach roofs adapted to have a pantograph fitted but for supply of overhead power at 750v DC connected through to the motor equipment like the class 71s. That way, no 3rd rail is fitted in the depots where the units would be stabled and ground based staff would not be at risk of electrocution from a powered rail.

 

[eldomtom2]

For an interesting insight into the situation in other countries, the Illinois Railway Museum has a fairly extensive 600V network.

Of particular interest, especially with @315801 's suggestion, is their third rail equipment modified to run off overhead wires:

 

[PacerTrain142]

This is something I have wondered in the past as well. I’ve thought “shame there aren’t any electric heritage railways”. I’d like to ride on the London Underground 1938 tube stock (used on the Isle of Wight until recently) again.

 

[Fincra5]

I think the biggest issues have been pointed out... Money and infrastructure being the main gripes.
Safety wise, you could look for 3rd Rail using the APS system Trams in places like Angers (France) use. Where it's only live when the vehicles are on it. But again Price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2023 ==

This is something I have wondered in the past as well. I’ve thought “shame there aren’t any electric heritage railways”. I’d like to ride on the London Underground 1938 tube stock (used on the Isle of Wight until recently) again.

The London Transport Museum do a few outings a year on the Underground Network with their very well kept and preserved 1938 Stock.

 

[Krokodil]

The London Transport Museum do a few outings a year on the Underground Network with their very well kept and preserved 1938 Stock.

Presumably resignalling will eventually catch up with this.

I think that the Aldwych branch is a missed opportunity for the LTM.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Presumably resignalling will eventually catch up with this.

It will be possible to operate heritage trains between Amersham and Harrow on the Hill for the foreseeable future, even after resignalling. There is still many years of operation to come before the Piccadilly line will be resignalled also.

I think that the Aldwych branch is a missed opportunity for the LTM.

How so?

 

[renegademaster]

What's the least used 3rd rail branch that could be commandeered on a Sunday by EMU nerds without annoying too many people?

 

[Thebaz]

What's the least used 3rd rail branch that could be commandeered on a Sunday by EMU nerds without annoying too many people?

Possibly Birkbeck to Beckenham Junction? Living in Croydon you should know that

 

[renegademaster]

Possibly Birkbeck to Beckenham Junction? Living in Croydon you should know that

Good idea.
I did have the Hayes line in my head too.
Problem being some space to put all the EMUs.

Could annoy some Kentish by giving the Chatham mainline to the East Kent railway

 

[zwk500]

What's the least used 3rd rail branch that could be commandeered on a Sunday by EMU nerds without annoying too many people?

Lymington.