Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[Energy]

I think the OP is referring to a plan to put Networker coaches in the Turbo fleet which was dependant on a repower happening, and was discussed some time ago. Seems to have very much gone out of the plan.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hydrive-165-project.223818/#post-5411953

It was related to the magtec conversion of the 165, which hasn't gone well.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, very much binned. The time window of opportunity has been well and truly lost and (eventually) replacing the 16x fleet with new is now seen as the best option.

If the Hy-drive project had been completed in a timely manner and it had actually worked, there was a good chance that some augmentation would have gone ahead but the Turbo units are now getting too old to do that much with.

 

[Snow1964]

Towards the end of this month & mid August respectively.

Has 166 215 appeared yet,

Most of the other 166s nowadays are rather tatty (not really surprising as they are 31 years old), although if work continues at approx 1 unit every 3 weeks (it took 22 months to do the 165s) then will be lucky to finish by Christmas 2024

Still waiting to find out if they will now be fitted out as a regional train for Wessex services, some of which are 3+ hours, or if they come back as a cleaned up outer suburban configuration, with some downgraded seats, same as when they transferred west after being displaced by 387s

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Still waiting to find out if they will now be fitted out as a regional train for Wessex services, some of which are 3+ hours, or if they come back as a cleaned up outer suburban configuration, with some downgraded seats, same as when they transferred west after being displaced by 387s

Initial plans did considered interior changes, however the plan the DfT asked for is a like for like refreshment of the interiors with no internal reconfiguration, the same as the 165/1s which have been refreshed.

 

[FGW_DID]

Has 166 215 appeared yet,

Most of the other 166s nowadays are rather tatty (not really surprising as they are 31 years old), although if work continues at approx 1 unit every 3 weeks (it took 22 months to do the 165s) then will be lucky to finish by Christmas 2024

Still waiting to find out if they will now be fitted out as a regional train for Wessex services, some of which are 3+ hours, or if they come back as a cleaned up outer suburban configuration, with some downgraded seats, same as when they transferred west after being displaced by 387s

Nope, due out at the end of the month (30th). Unless anything major happens with extra work arising the program is due to be complete by June 2024.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Initial plans did considered interior changes, however the plan the DfT asked for is a like for like refreshment of the interiors with no internal reconfiguration, the same as the 165/1s which have been refreshed.

Such a shame, although perhaps it’s a blessing in disguise. This is First Group, who absolutely love maximum density. These interior changes could have simply been former first class removed vis a vis more of the current 3+2 as per 2-165s.

 

[jimm]

Such a shame, although perhaps it’s a blessing in disguise. This is First Group, who absolutely love maximum density. These interior changes could have simply been former first class removed vis a vis more of the current 3+2 as per 2-165s.

As HamworthyGoods pointed out, this is the DfT - which has been resistant to any suggestion whatever of reducing seating capacity for a long time now. And at this stage in the lives of the Turbos, no one is going to pay to buy lots of new 2+2 seating, or to move the radiator header tanks that are placed under some of the seats, or adjust the brake systems to account for the altered weight distribution if the seating layout was changed.

 

[fgwrich]

As HamworthyGoods pointed out, this is the DfT - which has been resistant to any suggestion whatever of reducing seating capacity for a long time now. And at this stage in the lives of the Turbos, no one is going to pay to buy lots of new 2+2 seating, or to move the radiator header tanks that are placed under some of the seats, or adjust the brake systems to account for the altered weight distribution if the seating layout was changed.

Yes… it’s almost as if they never had several fleets with recently replaced seating going to the bin of late…

I still don’t understand how the industry continues to scrap relatively new seating, then ordering more new seating each and every time it wants stock refurbished. Just in the last 3 years we’ve had FGW HSTs (Grammer), SWT 455 / 456 (Grammer), EC HST (Primarius / Transcal), Southern 455, Southern 313 etc…

But unfortunately the DfT prefer to count seat numbers over comfort and usability and as a result, here we are, they’ll stay the same.

 

[cactustwirly]

Such a shame, although perhaps it’s a blessing in disguise. This is First Group, who absolutely love maximum density. These interior changes could have simply been former first class removed vis a vis more of the current 3+2 as per 2-165s.

Clearly! This is the same company that is replacing 450s with 2+2 458s on Portsmouth services

 

[northernbelle]

Clearly! This is the same company that is replacing 450s with 2+2 458s on Portsmouth services

Indeed...or replaced 2+3 seated Turbos with 2+2 Electrostars on the Paddington line...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2023 ==

Yes… it’s almost as if they never had several fleets with recently replaced seating going to the bin of late…

I still don’t understand how the industry continues to scrap relatively new seating, then ordering more new seating each and every time it wants stock refurbished. Just in the last 3 years we’ve had FGW HSTs (Grammer), SWT 455 / 456 (Grammer), EC HST (Primarius / Transcal), Southern 455, Southern 313 etc…

But unfortunately the DfT prefer to count seat numbers over comfort and usability and as a result, here we are, they’ll stay the same.

Recently replaced? Some of the fleets you describe were fitted with their current seats nearly 20 years ago!

 

[DelW]

As HamworthyGoods pointed out, this is the DfT - which has been resistant to any suggestion whatever of reducing seating capacity for a long time now. And at this stage in the lives of the Turbos, no one is going to pay to buy lots of new 2+2 seating, or to move the radiator header tanks that are placed under some of the seats, or adjust the brake systems to account for the altered weight distribution if the seating layout was changed.

My impression from a journey on one on the North Downs is that the refurbished Turbos have had their seat numbers reduced by the insertion of extra luggage stacks. Though I had spent a long evening in a Reading pub so maybe I was seeing things ....

Clearly! This is the same company that is replacing 450s with 2+2 458s on Portsmouth services

Maybe ... sometime ... or maybe not ... who knows?

 

[fgwrich]

Indeed...or replaced 2+3 seated Turbos with 2+2 Electrostars on the Paddington line...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2023 ==


Recently replaced? Some of the fleets you describe were fitted with their current seats nearly 20 years ago!

Some of only being the Southern 455s, and that seat frame still seems to be available. It’s also not as if seats haven’t been swapped and re-used before, with FGW taking the ex ScotRail Richmonds for its 153s and 158s, only for GWR to come along later and replace those again with BR seats. A load of those Grammer seats would have been perfect for the 158 and or Turbo fleets, though the latter would probably require a Chiltern style situation.

 

[CR165022]

A load of those Grammer seats would have been perfect for the 158 and or Turbo fleets, though the latter would probably require a Chiltern style situation.

By Chiltern style im assuming you mean a mix of 3+2 and 2+2?
I might be wrong but i dont think 2+2 throughout is an issue on turbos, as one Chiltern unit was fitted with it as a Prototype thing many years ago, its been changed back to the normal config now though.

 

[fgwrich]

By Chiltern style im assuming you mean a mix of 3+2 and 2+2?
I might be wrong but i dont think 2+2 throughout is an issue on turbos, as one Chiltern unit was fitted with it as a Prototype thing many years ago, its been changed back to the normal config now though.

I did indeed mean that, even small areas of 2+2 would be better than nothing. The issue still remains that of the header tanks which won’t now be moved (I think the Hy-drive project would have seen them removed but this now appears to be a dead duck).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I did indeed mean that, even small areas of 2+2 would be better than nothing. The issue still remains that of the header tanks which won’t now be moved (I think the Hy-drive project would have seen them removed but this now appears to be a dead duck).

They have three small areas of 2+2, two of which I’m sure you’d agree have arguably far more comfortable seats than standard class Grammars would be.

 

[northernbelle]

They have three small areas of 2+2, two of which I’m sure you’d agree have arguably far more comfortable seats than standard class Grammars would be.

In addition the 166s have more areas of standard class 2+2 seating, in the carriage ends.

 

[fgwrich]

They have three small areas of 2+2, two of which I’m sure you’d agree have arguably far more comfortable seats than standard class Grammars would be.

Nope, not really. As always on this forum, seat comfort is subjective. As an almost daily user of both the Turbos and Desiros, I'd take Grammars over the seats in the Turbo's any day of the week, month, year or decade. I'm fed up with the low down, cramped Ashbournes. While the often collapsed sponge in the former FC compartment is only slightly better (the refurb versions being better than the dusty, dirty old cushions).

I also hope they do a better job of the table's in this refresh, as they were often sticky, scratched and damaged.

 

[northernbelle]

Some of only being the Southern 455s, and that seat frame still seems to be available. It’s also not as if seats haven’t been swapped and re-used before, with FGW taking the ex ScotRail Richmonds for its 153s and 158s, only for GWR to come along later and replace those again with BR seats. A load of those Grammer seats would have been perfect for the 158 and or Turbo fleets, though the latter would probably require a Chiltern style situation.

Not just the 455s - East Coast and FGW HSTs had their later seating fitted from 2007 so can hardly be classed as 'recent'. Likewise, the Southern '313' units were refurbished in 2009/10. This also assumes that the stock coming out of use is timed perfectly to allow the seating to be recycled - it usually isn't and when you start facing mass storage costs for such things the numbers don't add up.

The GWR 158s were (rightly) fitted with a new manufacture of the BR style seats during their most recent refurbishment - the Richmonds were dreadful and the pros of the Grammer seating are up for debate - I certainly think the GWR sets have a better ambience that the EMR or Inverness sets. The aim was to improve comfort, reduce the claustrophic feeling and provide a standard interior across all the GWR 158s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2023 ==

Nope, not really. As always on this forum, seat comfort is subjective. As an almost daily user of both the Turbos and Desiros, I'd take Grammars over the seats in the Turbo's any day of the week, month, year or decade. I'm fed up with the low down, cramped Ashbournes. While the often collapsed sponge in the former FC compartment is only slightly better (the refurb versions being better than the dusty, dirty old cushions).

I also hope they do a better job of the table's in this refresh, as they were often sticky, scratched and damaged.

I don't think Turbos are fitted with Ashbourne seating - 150s, 155s and 156s (as built) were though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nope, not really. As always on this forum, seat comfort is subjective. As an almost daily user of both the Turbos and Desiros, I'd take Grammars over the seats in the Turbo's any day of the week, month, year or decade. I'm fed up with the low down, cramped Ashbournes. While the often collapsed sponge in the former FC compartment is only slightly better (the refurb versions being better than the dusty, dirty old cushions).

I also hope they do a better job of the table's in this refresh, as they were often sticky, scratched and damaged.

They don’t have Ashbournes, unless it’s Ashbourne but a different design. Ashbournes are what the Angel 150s have.

 

[Dan G]

Have all the 16xs been refurbished now?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2023 ==

Well, "refreshed" anyway

 

[JN114]

All 165s have

166s have just been started.

 

[387star]

Have all the 16xs been refurbished now?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2023 ==

Well, "refreshed" anyway

All 165s but none of the 166s which are dreadfully tatty

 

[CR165022]

Paths are in for tomorrow:

5Q81 0633 Wolverton Centre Sidings to St Philips Marsh Depot Fhh
5Q70 1409 St Philips Marsh Depot Fhh to Wolverton Centre Sidings


Edit: a second 5Q81 has appeared, albiet starting at 0938 instead

 

[Snow1964]

Have all the 16xs been refurbished now?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2023 ==

Well, "refreshed" anyway

Not sure if any 166s have been done yet, I think first one was due back this week. Don't think it has re-entered service yet.

Many of the 166s are quite tatty with worn upholstery and carpets, and battered and scratched internal panelling. Some even have grab poles by the door worn through to bare metal in places. Remains to be seen if a refresh actually renovates and improves them, or is more of a token effort at hiding the deterioration from aging.

Some of the 166s are still in old First colours, not GWR green.

 

[GWVillager]

Some of the 166s are still in old First colours, not GWR green.

Ah yes, does anyone know if the refresh will see these repainted too?

 

[northernbelle]

Ah yes, does anyone know if the refresh will see these repainted too?

Yes the 166 refresh will close the chapter of blue/pink on the 16x fleet.

 

[FGW_DID]

Some of the 166s are still in old First colours, not GWR green.

Ah yes, does anyone know if the refresh will see these repainted too?

Been mentioned several times already in the thread, the intention is that all the blue 166s will be green by the time they’ve passed through Wolverton.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Been mentioned several times already in the thread, the intention is that all the blue 166s will be green by the time they’ve passed through Wolverton.

This thread is 32 pages and just short of 1000 posts long…

I have to say, the 5 carriage 165 all in green (as it would be, as there are no blue 165s) looked very coordinated and smart the other day. It’ll be good when the out of date (as of 2015) blue is gone.

 

[FGW_DID]

This thread is 32 pages and just short of 1000 posts long…

However the last time it was mentioned was on the previous page, right at the bottom about 28 posts ago!

 

[GWVillager]

Been mentioned several times already in the thread, the intention is that all the blue 166s will be green by the time they’ve passed through Wolverton.

Sorry, I was in the Channel Tunnel and didn't really want to wait 5 minutes for other pages to load and check.