Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[NeilCr]

How does that work with grocery shopping? I’m not aware of any supermarkets accepting cheques.

Maybe not the same or what was meant

But I have a friend who - once a week - goes to the bank and takes cash out for use for shopping/buying a drink/etc for the seven days ahead.

He does that with a cheque book.

When asked he said he doesn't like/trust paying by card and he knows that if there is an issue at the bank he is in the right place for it to be dealt with.

 

[Killingworth]

Maybe not the same or what was meant

But I have a friend who - once a week - goes to the bank and takes cash out for use for shopping/buying a drink/etc for the seven days ahead.

He does that with a cheque book.

When asked he said he doesn't like/trust paying by card and he knows that if there is an issue at the bank he is in the right place for it to be dealt with.

55 years ago I was the 3rd of 4 cashiers at a bank in Byker, an east end of Newcastle working class suburb On a Monday I'd take in over £20,000 cash in 10/-, £1 and £5 notes. On a Friday I'd serve over 200 cash customers giving out change and cashing cheques, some for company wages. The traditional bank branch was designed for that sort of business with a strong room and night safe to keep the cash safe. Costs and charges reflected that At that time the majority were still paid in cash and in many sectors it was weekly. Back then travellers cheques were still quite new

Cheque books weren't issued by the TSB or the building societies but things changed fast. By 45 years ago the ATM and cheque cards were making massive changes aa the majorityvwere paid by direct bank transfer monthly. No modern bank is anything like that. 25 years ago internet banking came along and smartphones leave very little for bank branch staff to do and the large and grand old premises are no longer in any way economic

There have been rearguard attempts to retain bank branches but market forces have been relentless. King Canute demonstated that tides will always win.

Back in the 60s I recall booking a ticket from West Jesmond to Haslemere with a travel warrant. A former classmate's father had been station master there and I thought it might halp the station's figures. At that time the station had a W H Smith's branch with library and a separate tobacconists. There waa a busy coalyard.. All long gone.

Times move on. Younger people have never had a cheque book and wouldn't know what to do with one. I think I have one that was issued almost 25 years ago.

Sale of tickets and their types are evolving fast. The entire process needs careful review. It needs more time and precision, not this 18 month battering ram, but change is inevitable.

It's announcement has guaranteed the negative kneejerk responses which are unhelpful in getting the best future facilties for rail users and those serving them. We need to stand back, take more time, and see what's really best for each location.

 

[NeilCr]

55 years ago I was the 3rd of 4 cashiers at a bank in Byker, an east end of Newcastle working class suburb On a Monday I'd take in over £20,000 cash in 10/-, £1 and £5 notes. On a Friday I'd serve over 200 cash customers giving out change and cashing cheques, some for company wages. The traditional bank branch was designed for that sort of business with a strong room and night safe to keep the cash safe. Costs and charges reflected that At that time the majority were still paid in cash and in many sectors it was weekly. Back then travellers cheques were still quite new

Cheque books weren't issued by the TSB or the building societies but things changed fast. By 45 years ago the ATM and cheque cards were making massive changes aa the majorityvwere paid by direct bank transfer monthly. No modern bank is anything like that. 25 years ago internet banking came along and smartphones leave very little for bank branch staff to do and the large and grand old premises are no longer in any way economic

There have been rearguard attempts to retain bank branches but market forces have been relentless. King Canute demonstated that tides will always win.

Back in the 60s I recall booking a ticket from West Jesmond to Haslemere with a travel warrant. A former classmate's father had been station master there and I thought it might halp the station's figures. At that time the station had a W H Smith's branch with library and a separate tobacconists. There waa a busy coalyard.. All long gone.

Times move on. Younger people have never had a cheque book and wouldn't know what to do with one. I think I have one that was issued almost 25 years ago.

Sale of tickets and their types are evolving fast. The entire process needs careful review. It needs more time and precision, not this 18 month battering ram, but change is inevitable.

It's announcement has guaranteed the negative kneejerk responses which are unhelpful in getting the best future facilties for rail users and those serving them. We need to stand back, take more time, and see what's really best for each location.

Yes

I was really just responding to the question about chequebooks and supermarkets. That's how my friend rolls. Uses cash withdrawn by cheque from a bank and I must say I have other friends who are far more comfortable with cash

There is quite a lot of lack of trust about the amount of information stored online etc.

Nevertheless I agree and understand that change is coming. I am also with you on how this consultation has been carried out and, in particular, with the speed

I don't accept, though, that all the responses have been knee jerk. I think there are genuine concerns - some of which have been well articulated on this thread.

 

[northwichcat]

Alternatively, if they had partial mobility they might wish or be able to join the train without deploying the ramp, or they still had the helper who would deal with it. By the time that the guard had fully investigated the situation and established that the ramp was indeed needed, precious time would have been lost.

Well I've heard Northern guards shouting at helpers who try to move wheelchairs on or off of trains to wait until they have put the ramp down. So I would presume it's Northern policy to not allow passengers to load wheelchairs on or off of trains.

As Lostock Gralam has low platforms (like Northwich) but unlike most stations it might be the guard wasn't sure on the correct procedure, or was doing something for the first time.

My real point was that there is a world of difference between the Knutsford case - where a station staff member was aware of a customer's needs in advance and thus able to be ready with a ramp - and the Lostock Gralam case where the guard would have had no advanced notice and quite probably was unclear what help (if any) was needed.

I thought somewhere I had already made the point that unstaffed stations are likely to have fewer wheelchair passengers, compared to busier staffed stations. A delay is to be expected if Northern/the unions insist on guards releasing and closing doors from the rear, when a wheelchair passenger needs loading in the middle. The delays will likely be more frequent if Northern don't have station staff at places, like Knutsford, who can assist disabled passengers.

 

[island]

It needs more time and precision, not this 18 month battering ram, but change is inevitable.

It's announcement has guaranteed the negative kneejerk responses which are unhelpful in getting the best future facilties for rail users and those serving them.

Indeed. Comments like “everything should remain as it is” are unuseful. It should be remembered that the decision has already been taken to move many ticket office staff away from fixed offices and deploy them more flexibly. The consultation and responses are about how to do this, not whether.

 

[HORNIMANS]

How does that work with grocery shopping? I’m not aware of any supermarkets accepting cheques.

They do I use one, why would the Bank issue me one if I couldn't use it anywhere?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2023 ==

They do I use one, why would the Bank issue me one if I couldn't use it anywhe

Indeed. Comments like “everything should remain as it is” are unuseful. It should be remembered that the decision has already been taken to move many ticket office staff away from fixed offices and deploy them more flexibly. The consultation and responses are about how to do this, not whether.

Who says

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2023 ==

Who says. a lot of court cases to be heard yet breaches Equality Act for one.

 

[142blue]

Almost all warrants are issued by the public sector. Probation, courts, DWP etc.

Just as long as you turn up between 7am and 9am. Otherwise you're on your own.

But a ticket office isn't 24/7 either so you still have to turn up within a designated time frame.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2023 ==

You make it sound as if the vast number of people who split are doing something wrong.

Not as such but certainly playing a system to reduce costs although I understand why

It only works on certain routes or is great at peak times such as Man Picc to Birmingham being nearly half the price of the anytime return

Fares need simplifying so that your journey doesn't need to be separate segments that not everyone understands

 

[Killingworth]

I don't accept, though, that all the responses have been knee jerk. I think there are genuine concerns - some of which have been well articulated on this thread.

And I certainly didn't say all responses have been knee jerk. I agree. Amongst the sheer volume of comments there are very many that are well presented, logical and constructive. I hope they will be given due consideration.

 

[NeilCr]

And I certainly didn't say all responses have been knee jerk. I agree. Amongst the sheer volume of comments there are very many that are well presented, logical and constructive. I hope they will be given due consideration.

Apologies

Clumsy of me. I didn’t mean to suggest that you did

I think the vast majority of posters recognise some change is necessary. They are somewhere between the “it’s a done thing” and “no change” positions

This thread has given me pause for thought and helped hone my response to the consultation

 

[infobleep]

Bit in bold - that's not how *any* of the public services work, be it health, education, transport or anything else - they are one size to fit the majority of people, not bespoke services offering whatever a group of people may demand. And people have "adjusted" to changes in all of those, because they have had to if they want to use the service.

If you want a "bespoke" or a service fit for everyone, you'd better expect the costs and prices to go up to cover that - and most people don't want higher taxes (except on people who are richer than them it seems) or higher prices.

What percentage of the traveling public would be classed as disabled? On a separate note, I keep seeing stones laid on pavements to help the blind. What percentage of the country is blind?

These stones seem fairly bespoke to me if you consider one group of people as being bespoke.

Note I don't have any issues with things being installed to help the registered blind.

 

[Krokodil]

But a ticket office isn't 24/7 either so you still have to turn up within a designated time frame.

Well yes, if you turn up at 3am you will probably be disappointed. Back in the real world, booking office opening hours are set to serve the times most customers need them. A two hour window set by the need to move the "journey maker" on to the next station does not do that.

 

[MikeWM]

Like every aspect of life, the end of non-digital will come.

...until we get a Carrington event/CME, or some rogue actors set off an EMP. At which point, the end of digital will come too, literally in an instant.

It is totally insane that as a society we're putting all our eggs into this one basket - which has serious fragilities we are fully knowledgeable about. I think it is one of the stupidest things the human race has ever done.

It goes well beyond being able to travel by train of course - buying a rail ticket would be the least of our concerns if such a thing happened - but as a microcosm of this ludicrous breakneck rush to digitise/log/track/monitor literally everything about our society, it is somewhat instructive.

--

Edit : I experienced the exciting brave new world of no ticket offices yesterday. First at Bury St Edmunds, which is one of GA's two 'examples' of how the future will work without ticket offices (the other being Cambridge North, which we've already discussed in this thread). Despite being in the hours where assistance is supposedly available, there was no-one in sight and the barriers had been left open. Then at Stowmarket, where the ticket office wasn't open despite it being within ticket office hours, and the waiting room and toilets were also locked - also despite being within their posted opening hours.

Suppose the strike may have been making things worse (I've lost track of who specifically is on strike at any particular moment) but stations devoid of staff and locked-up facilities did feel like the railway they are trying to create by changes such as these. Can't say I like it much.

 

[HSTEd]

What percentage of the traveling public would be classed as disabled? On a separate note, I keep seeing stones laid on pavements to help the blind. What percentage of the country is blind?

These stones seem fairly bespoke to me if you consider one group of people as being bespoke.

Note I don't have any issues with things being installed to help the registered blind.

How many thousands of staff are devoted to deploying and maintaining textured paving?

The ongoing costs of ticket offices are huge, if they had no operating costs beyond defrayed capital it would be one thing. But they do, and the costs are huge

 

[urbophile]

Interesting and relevant article by Emma Beddington in The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-and-they-are-imposing-this-on-the-rest-of-us

 

[A0]

Interesting and relevant article by Emma Beddington in The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-and-they-are-imposing-this-on-the-rest-of-us

Well it's not saying anything new - it's a pretty normal recycling of the old "I don't like dealing with machines" line - but overlooking the fact that people weren't forced to stop using their bank branches for example - most people *chose* to move to banking online, because they weren't restricted to the bank's opening hours which were the same as their working hours, which meant either using their lunch break or taking time off work to undertake basic banking. Same goes for train ticket sales, people weren't forced to change, they chose to change and move to using TVMs or online.

And she's then trying to argue it's some conspiracy to favour billionaires - the fact that more people are in control of their banking than ever they were when they had to go to a branch as gone right over her head.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2023 ==

What percentage of the traveling public would be classed as disabled? On a separate note, I keep seeing stones laid on pavements to help the blind. What percentage of the country is blind?

These stones seem fairly bespoke to me if you consider one group of people as being bespoke.

Note I don't have any issues with things being installed to help the registered blind.

Bit in bold - those slabs aren't "bespoke" - they're standard textured paving slabs of standard sizes - a long way from 'bespoke'. You can buy them from Travis Perkins - they're off the shelf.

 

[urbophile]

Well it's not saying anything new - it's a pretty normal recycling of the old "I don't like dealing with machines" line - but overlooking the fact that people weren't forced to stop using their bank branches for example - most people *chose* to move to banking online, because they weren't restricted to the bank's opening hours which were the same as their working hours, which meant either using their lunch break or taking time off work to undertake basic banking. Same goes for train ticket sales, people weren't forced to change, they chose to change and move to using TVMs or online.

And she's then trying to argue it's some conspiracy to favour billionaires - the fact that more people are in control of their banking than ever they were when they had to go to a branch as gone right over her head.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2023 ==

No it's a pretty good example of the law of unintended consequences. Like, 'wouldn't it be nice to have one's own private holiday home in an unspoilt Cornish village', and then discovering that so many people have done the same thing so that the villages are depopulated of the people who might clean your house, sell you a loaf of bread, or keep the local pub open. Or, voting for Brexit.

The super-rich manage because they are super-rich, and they manage to persuade enough people that impersonal electronic communications are the future. Who then belatedly realise that they quite liked living in the real world alongside other real people.

 

[KGX]

No it's a pretty good example of the law of unintended consequences. Like, 'wouldn't it be nice to have one's own private holiday home in an unspoilt Cornish village', and then discovering that so many people have done the same thing so that the villages are depopulated of the people who might clean your house, sell you a loaf of bread, or keep the local pub open. Or, voting for Brexit.

The super-rich manage because they are super-rich, and they manage to persuade enough people that impersonal electronic communications are the future. Who then belatedly realise that they quite liked living in the real world alongside other real people.

Don't think that argument works actually. It's not about avoiding people or touch points as per the comment piece. If that was the case we would not be seeing a declining use of TVMs, or ATMs in the bank analogy. Both of which avoid human interacttion.
It's much simpler than that; for many people,managing via website/app is a just a vastly superior user experience from end to end.

 

[infobleep]

How many thousands of staff are devoted to deploying and maintaining textured paving?

The ongoing costs of ticket offices are huge, if they had no operating costs beyond defrayed capital it would be one thing. But they do, and the costs are huge

They need people to install and maintain it but I accept it's not continuous day in and day out.

Of course, they do need to take into account people who are disabled and they should provide an alternative to help them here rather than saying tough.

In a conversation with a friend, free travel was suggested as an alternative as maybe that is cheaper than staff being in one place to help disabled people, such as the blind. I can't remember if my friend or I suggested it.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Indeed. Comments like “everything should remain as it is” are unuseful. It should be remembered that the decision has already been taken to move many ticket office staff away from fixed offices and deploy them more flexibly. The consultation and responses are about how to do this, not whether.

Train station ticket office consultation - Transport Focus

www.transportfocus.org.uk

https://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/05081732/Transport-Focuss-role-in-assessing-major-changes-to-ticket-office-opening-hours.pdf

Transport Focus has a formal role in assessing major changes to ticket office opening hours. If a train company wishes to make such a change it must follow the process set out in a document called the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (TSA)
An operator wishing to make a major change must display details of the proposed change at affected stations and invite people to make representations to Transport Focus (or London TravelWatch for stations in the wider London area). The TSA specifies a 21-day consultation period.
Under clause 6-18 (1) of the TSA, changes to opening hours may be made under the major change procedure if:
• the change would represent an improvement on current arrangements in terms of quality of service and/or cost effectiveness and
• members of the public would continue to enjoy widespread and easy access to the purchase of rail products, notwithstanding the change.
Transport Focus and London TravelWatch may object to a proposal on the grounds that the change does not meet one or both of the criteria above. If we object, the train company can either withdraw their proposal or refer it to the Secretary of State for a decision. The Department for Transport has published guidance setting out the approach the Secretary of State would take in these circumstances.
We believe it is important that there is as much transparency as possible surrounding the process and Transport Focus’s role within it. To that end this note sets out the broad criteria Transport Focus will use to assess any proposals received. Any proposal must set out how these passenger expectations will be met in future.
• Passengers can easily buy the right ticket for the journey they want to make. This will include the product range available at the station, what support is available to advise/help with a purchase and access for people who need to use cash or do not have a smartphone.
• Passengers requiring assistance to travel receive that assistance in a timely and reliable manner. This will include arrangements for providing booked assistance (using the Passenger Assist process), assistance provided on a ‘turn-up-and-go’ basis, the support available when buying a ticket and the ease of requesting assistance.
• Passengers can get the information they require to plan and make a journey, including during periods of disruption. This will include the information channels available at the station and the support available to help passengers who need assistance.
• Passengers feel safe at a station. This will include perceptions of personal security and how train companies will provide reassurance for passengers wanting to travel.
• Passengers are not penalised if they cannot buy the ticket they require from the station. This will include arrangements for issuing Penalty Fares or prosecutions for fare evasion.
• Passengers can continue to use facilities at a station. This will include access to facilities such as waiting rooms, toilets, lifts and car parking.
These are intended to give an outline of the broad areas that will be considered. Transport Focus will focus its assessment on the impact of the proposals on passengers and whether, in accordance with the terms of the TSA, they represent ‘an improvement on current arrangements in terms of quality of service’. It is important to acknowledge that the presence of staff at a station plays a key role in the railway meeting passengers’ expectations in many of these areas so station staffing will be a key consideration in our assessment. We will also take into account any specific circumstances surrounding a station as well as issues raised by members of the public during the public consultation stage. When we have completed our analysis of the proposals and the comments received from members of the public, we will publish our response. This will include an overview of the number of representations we have received and the main issues raised in the consultation.

 

[jayah]

55 years ago I was the 3rd of 4 cashiers at a bank in Byker, an east end of Newcastle working class suburb On a Monday I'd take in over £20,000 cash in 10/-, £1 and £5 notes. On a Friday I'd serve over 200 cash customers giving out change and cashing cheques, some for company wages. The traditional bank branch was designed for that sort of business with a strong room and night safe to keep the cash safe. Costs and charges reflected that At that time the majority were still paid in cash and in many sectors it was weekly. Back then travellers cheques were still quite new

Cheque books weren't issued by the TSB or the building societies but things changed fast. By 45 years ago the ATM and cheque cards were making massive changes aa the majorityvwere paid by direct bank transfer monthly. No modern bank is anything like that. 25 years ago internet banking came along and smartphones leave very little for bank branch staff to do and the large and grand old premises are no longer in any way economic

There have been rearguard attempts to retain bank branches but market forces have been relentless. King Canute demonstated that tides will always win.

Back in the 60s I recall booking a ticket from West Jesmond to Haslemere with a travel warrant. A former classmate's father had been station master there and I thought it might halp the station's figures. At that time the station had a W H Smith's branch with library and a separate tobacconists. There waa a busy coalyard.. All long gone.

Times move on. Younger people have never had a cheque book and wouldn't know what to do with one. I think I have one that was issued almost 25 years ago.

Sale of tickets and their types are evolving fast. The entire process needs careful review. It needs more time and precision, not this 18 month battering ram, but change is inevitable.

It's announcement has guaranteed the negative kneejerk responses which are unhelpful in getting the best future facilties for rail users and those serving them. We need to stand back, take more time, and see what's really best for each location.

Quite true.

On the one hand, at Castle Bar Park* by June 2024 it is proposed to close the ticket office and move 'colleagues' to other locations on the station, closer to customers. Six months later, the remaining (and already reduced) number of ticket office windows at Paddington will close.

*Castle Bar Park is a 2 platform halt, which has had Contactless / Oyster for years, estimated annual footfall of just ~50k and must only have one 'colleague' as the hours of staffing are 0700-1000 M-F .

 

[tomuk]

Quite true.

On the one hand, at Castle Bar Park* by June 2024 it is proposed to close the ticket office and move 'colleagues' to other locations on the station, closer to customers. Six months later, the remaining (and already reduced) number of ticket office windows at Paddington will close.

*Castle Bar Park is a 2 platform halt, which has had Contactless / Oyster for years, estimated annual footfall of just ~50k and must only have one 'colleague' as the hours of staffing are 0700-1000 M-F .

According to GWR's consultation document Castle Bar Park has no TVM and the ticket office sold zero fares last financial year. 56 tickets were booked on line.

 

[sor]

...until we get a Carrington event/CME, or some rogue actors set off an EMP. At which point, the end of digital will come too, literally in an instant.

... which would also affect the good old ticket office too, since their computers and back end systems would have gone as well. Is there a fallback process for that? Can they write tickets out by hand?

Not that you'd be going anywhere fast considering the signalling and on train systems would also be trashed.

 

[island]

There exist contingency handwritten ticket books, though one would have to know the fare

 

[MikeWM]

... which would also affect the good old ticket office too, since their computers and back end systems would have gone as well. Is there a fallback process for that? Can they write tickets out by hand?

Not that you'd be going anywhere fast considering the signalling and on train systems would also be trashed.

Well, yes, that's exactly my point about putting all of our eggs into one fragile basket. Society could have happily carried on almost obliviously only a few decades ago. Now we'd be pretty much facing the end of civilisation as we know it, instantly.

So yes, maybe ticket offices aren't the place to make this stand, we're way too deep into this already. But currently a ticket office *could* write a ticket out by hand and take more-or-less the correct fare in cash. But you're right, the trains wouldn't be going anywhere either, unless we're all wrong about the strategic reserve in Box Tunnel

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There exist contingency handwritten ticket books, though one would have to know the fare

Are these the same as the old excess fare pads that guards carried around with them in years gone by?

 

[davews]

They are repainting Martins Heron at the moment. Yesterday passing through I joked to one of the men 'ah, hard at work repainting this ticket office which is going to closed' He laughed.

 

[Wychwood93]

Are these the same as the old excess fare pads that guards carried around with them in years gone by?

Similar, I would suggest. In my ticket office days, a while ago, we could write paper tickets if the system went down and obtained the appropriate fare from the 'fares manual'. Something like a telephone directory in size and not hard to use, once you got to grips with it. A similar situation for the TEB (Telephone enquiry bureau) - when the system (CATE) went down you used the fares manual for the fares and the paper all-line timetable (and supplements) for the times. Simples! and fun! Just doing what you were paid to do.

 

[northwichcat]

Similar, I would suggest. In my ticket office days, a while ago, we could write paper tickets if the system went down and obtained the appropriate fare from the 'fares manual'. Something like a telephone directory in size and not hard to use, once you got to grips with it.

I remember some guards having those telephone directory style books, as recently as 20 years ago. They got them out when someone asked for a ticket outside of the local area. For example, someone boarding at Greenbank asking for a ticket to Sheffield.

 

[plugwash]

The impression I get is that the old "Portis" and "sportis" portable ticket machines (the ones that printed small flimsy tickets on a paper roll) could only store a limited number of fares, so long distance fares had to be looked up and entered manually.

I think that went away when they switched to the machines based on windows CE PDAs.

 

[yorksrob]

The impression I get is that the old "Portis" and "sportis" portable ticket machines (the ones that printed small flimsy tickets on a paper roll) could only store a limited number of fares, so long distance fares had to be looked up and entered manually.

I think that went away when they switched to the machines based on windows CE PDAs.

I seem to recall that there was a time not long ago when portable ticket machines printed proper CCST's. They should do that now