Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Spamcan81]

That’s your opinion which you’re entitled to, but the railway has already withdrawn or severely limited acceptance for other anachronistic types of payment such as cheques or non-chip credit cards, and LU has already closed its booking offices. The steps discussed in this thread are happening whether you like them or not.

Digital exclusion has been highlighted by a House of Lords report but since it mostly will only affect the "little people," not too many people seem to care, especially the DfT and their government masters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2023 ==

Indeed, there are issues of digital exclusion which cannot be swept under the carpet.

The solution to digital exclusion will be what eventually drives the end of non-digital payments because there is still a public interest in what services the railway offers. Like every aspect of life, the end of non-digital will come. The task is to make sure that the population are all ready and that there is not exclusion of any vulnerable groups.

Technology progresses, but we do have to ensure that progress is as equitable as it can be.

I have no argument with that but there is a world of difference between those who do not use modern technology through choice and those who cannot access or cannot use the technology on offer.

 

[northwichcat]

Many establishments near me now accept card only and that is that.

What if the card machine goes down? I once booked a haircut and only took my card. When I went to pay their machine had gone offline, so they asked if I had cash, then if I could go across to the ATM to withdraw some.

Yes. Before cheque guarantee cards were introduced, cash was often the only option.

I bet that was before out-of-town retail parks and shopping centres and when shop hours largely corresponded with shop hours, so if you found you were £10 short for what you wanted to purchase you could walk across the road to your bank and fill out a withdrawal slip for £10.

 

[WelshBluebird]

What if

You can do "What ifs" for either case though.
What if the till that stores the cash breaks? What if they don't have the right change to give you back? What if the place is robbed and the cash is stolen?

the card machine goes down

Redundant systems. Have a separate card machine that connects in a different way. Maybe have a main machine that connects to your internet connection and a backup that relies on the mobile networks or something similar. Obviously that isn't doable for every retailer, but not every retailer is going card only. And back in the real world, I can probably count the number of times such an issue has actually occurred to me over the last 15 years or so with my fingers (i.e. less than 10 times) - and the vast majority of those will have been the small portable connect to a phone style machines that rely on the phone then having signal, rather than "regular" retail style card machines.

 

[northwichcat]

You can do "What ifs" for either case though.

Which is evidence in favour of accepting more than one payment method. I'm not suggesting cash only instead of card only. I normally pay by card but have noticed retailers sometimes need to say cash only due to system faults.

What if the till that stores the cash breaks?

That's within the shop's control though. They can then decide whether to get more cash from the bank or post office, put up a notice saying card payments preferred or whatever they choose.

What if they don't have the right change to give you back?

There's a widely adopted practice to prevent that happening. Someone tries to hand over a £10 note to pay for £5.10 of shopping and the response is "Do you have 10p?"

They're not going to suddenly runout and even if they do, there's banks, post offices and other customers who are all sources of additional cash.

What if the place is robbed and the cash is stolen?

Then it's a crime scene and the police will tell the owner to keep the store closed, so they can collect evidence.

Redundant systems. Have a separate card machine that connects in a different way. Maybe have a main machine that connects to your internet connection and a backup that relies on the mobile networks or something similar. Obviously that isn't doable for every retailer, but not every retailer is going card only.

Doesn't prevent Barclaycard or Visa having a problem processing any card payment, does it? If people and shops accepted a back up option for credit and debit card is sometimes needed, systems going down wouldn'y become a big national TV story.

Also a power cut in the wrong place can take out a source of broadband and a mobile network simultaneously.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. People should have a choice of payment method.

I naively thought that Western civilisation was supposed to be about choice, rather than just doing what big business/Government tells us to do for its own convenience.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Getting a little off topic now so I understand if mods want to clean some of this up! However:

Which is evidence in favour of accepting more than one payment method.

More than one payment method doesn't have to include cash though. For example, a lot of musicians I know will accept both card and paypal at the merch desk at gigs.

I'm not suggesting cash only instead of card only. I normally pay by card but have noticed retailers sometimes need to say cash only due to system faults.

And I am saying that those situations are so incredibly rare that we shouldn't base our day to day living on them occurring.
And the two main reasons for not accepting cash are pretty big ones - the cost and the risk of crime, so it is perfectly understandable for businesses to not want to deal with those things 364 days a year for something that may happen the other 1 day in the year.

That's within the shop's control though. They can then decide whether to get more cash from the bank or post office, put up a notice saying card payments preferred or whatever they choose.

It is still an additional thing that can go wrong though (my point is that just accepting cash doesn't mean all problems go away, it often introduces more).

There's a widely adopted practice to prevent that happening. Someone tries to hand over a £10 note to pay for £5.10 of shopping and the response is "Do you have 10p?"

And when the answer is "no sorry"? I take it you haven't tried paying with a note on a bus? You may aswell not have cash on you at all if you don't have the right change.

They're not going to suddenly runout and even if they do, there's banks, post offices and other customers who are all sources of additional cash.

There are plenty of kinds of business where the person taking the money may run out of change without being able to get more. Public transport is a good example (bus drivers are famous for not having change for a note), but there areother businesses that are affected in a similar way too (street food / food market stalls come to mind).

Then it's a crime scene and the police will tell the owner to keep the store closed, so they can collect evidence.

I wasn't talking from the customers pov there, I was talking from the shop's. It is pretty obvious that having cash about is a greater risk to the business in terms of crime.

Doesn't prevent Barclaycard or Visa having a problem processing any card payment, does it? If people and shops accepted a back up option for credit and debit card is sometimes needed, systems going down wouldn'y become a big national TV story.

Those things become big national stories precisely because they don't actually happen that often.

Also a power cut in the wrong place can take out a source of broadband and a mobile network simultaneously.

If a power cut that big happens then it is pretty damn likely that other things will be down causing the shop / company to stop doing business anyway (the till to accept cash at the very least).

Indeed. People should have a choice of payment method.

People have the choice to choose businesses that accept whatever payment method they want to pay with.
Personally I quite like card only places because they are a hell of a lot quicker to get served at. Especially bars / pubs and public transport.
But if you don't like it then you don't have to go into a card only bar or travel by a card only / pay before you board bus.

 

[daveo]

But the railway does not need to cater for the tiny minority who choose not to use current technology.

What a ridiculous statement. The railway needs to cater for everyone who wishes to pay to use its services!!!!!

 

[david1212]

What's illogical is giving an anecdotal example of your own parents being able to use the technology as proof that all people of a similar age are in the same position. That seems to be an ongoing theme in this thread - 'I buy my tickets online / using an App so I can't possibly imagine why everyone else on the planet can't do the same'.

I find it as infuriating to assume that anyone under a particular age is completely devoted to doing everything with a smartphone as it is to assume that anyone over that age is to incompetent to do so.

Just because someone uses a smartphone does not mean that they are capable of, or confident in, booking rail tickets. There is a world of difference between checking the weather, sending messages or video calling the grandkids and booking rail tickets, not least because the latter is often far more complex and can come with draconian penalties if you get it wrong. Similarly, comparisons between using self-checkouts in a supermarket and using a ticket machine fail to recognise the difference in complexity and risk.

This applies to any age group, not just the over 80s. As well as confidence and preference, people of any age can face changes in their vision or dexterity that make relying on touchscreens - whether smartphones or ticket machines - harder than booking tickets in person.

The irony is that a totally unstaffed station may actually be easier to use for some customers: if there are no ticket facilities at all, then all tickets can be bought on the train - from a member of staff. The greater barrier may be a station with only a ticket machine that some customers cannot confidently use, but whose presence means that they cannot buy in board without risking penalty.

These two excellent posts cover not this thread but many on this forum and others.


Another factor is that as a proportion most of those who post on this forum regularly know far more than average traveller and particularly the occasional traveller about the ticket options and the restrictions of each for the journey(s). With a simple TVM the passenger may make the wrong choice either overpaying or the risk of a penalty while with a journey planner based one may well end up with a ticket that implies restrictions which actually do not exist or at least has more flexibility.

 

[yorksrob]

People have the choice to choose businesses that accept whatever payment method they want to pay with.
Personally I quite like card only places because they are a hell of a lot quicker to get served at. Especially bars / pubs and public transport.
But if you don't like it then you don't have to go into a card only bar or travel by a card only / pay before you board bus.

The rail network isn't exactly a business where one can pop to the network next door though.

It's a public service where you have to catch the train that's there. It has a duty to serve customers needs and frankly, it has a duty to accept coin of the realm.

 

[northwichcat]

If a power cut that big happens then it is pretty damn likely that other things will be down causing the shop / company to stop doing business anyway (the till to accept cash at the very least).

It doesn't have to be a big powercut though. It just needs a few streets to be out to take out a Virgin Media/BT box out, as well as one mobile transmitter. The shop could even have electricity itself but no Virgin/Mobile and no signal on the mobile network they use. It wouldn't exactly look good if their competitor is operational but they have to close down as they decide to be card only.

 

[urbophile]

That’s your opinion which you’re entitled to, but the railway has already withdrawn or severely limited acceptance for other anachronistic types of payment such as cheques or non-chip credit cards, and LU has already closed its booking offices. The steps discussed in this thread are happening whether you like them or not.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of LU closing its offices, they are irrelevant to this debate. A closed urban system like a Metro is quite different from a nationwide public transport network, which is much more complex.

In any case there are many places besides stations where London travellers can buy or top up Oyster cards. Possibly still even paper Travelcards (no longer living in London I don't know). Most London residents and visitors will use buses or the Underground frequently, so there is more incentive for TfL to publicise the requirements, and more awareness on the part of passengers. Many mainline rail travellers do so only very occasionally and so are less familiar with requirements.

If, as part of the closure plans, there was a concerted effort to involve supermarkets and corner shops, as well as libraries, post offices, tourist information offices and the like, to sell train tickets the plan might work. Except that it is not as easy as selling a couple of simple products; even if the retail staff simply used one of the booking websites it's a time consuming process and it is likely that few businesses would take up the offer.

Until the rail network re-integrates, and simplifies the fare structure, it's far too early to be talking about closing offices. Why doe this country always seem to muddle through with short-sighted ill thought out plans, when a bit more effort might produce a scheme that works to the benefit of everyone?

 

[yorksrob]

If, as part of the closure plans, there was a concerted effort to involve supermarkets and corner shops, as well as libraries, post offices, tourist information offices and the like, to sell train tickets the plan might work. Except that it is not as easy as selling a couple of simple products; even if the retail staff simply used one of the booking websites it's a time consuming process and it is likely that few businesses would take up the offer.

They'll not do that. Far too pricey.

Rishi wants cheap cuts and believes that rail passengers are a pushover.

 

[northwichcat]

They'll not do that. Far too pricey.

Rishi wants cheap cuts and believes that rail passengers are a pushover.

Yes libraries and tourist information centres won't work. The latter are closing with the service being provided by libraries, while the libraries are facing cut backs themselves due to decreased funds for local councils and decreased usage. Local councils would probably want to impose a booking fee if they are made to sell train tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes libraries and tourist information centres won't work. The latter are closing with the service being provided by libraries, while the libraries are facing cut backs themselves due to decreased funds for local councils and decreased usage. Local councils would probably want to impose a booking fee if they are made to sell train tickets.

Indeed. Councils have been cut and cut from Austerity onwards. They have their hands full with adult social care and child services.

 

[Wychwood93]

Most larger department stores offered regular customers an account settled monthly.

That was way back when trust existed between retailers and customers. When I was young we had our meat delivered on a Saturday morning to our back step - wrapped back then in that odd covering they used, none of that weird plastic stuff (!) - a 'spikey' thing with the bill through the top. Mum or dad then duly paid in due course. The same with the fish shop in town, next to the butcher - all these years on we have neither of those in Christchurch. No greengrocer. Just a supermarket or two. Progress is sometimes a very sad outcome.

 

[island]

What a ridiculous statement. The railway needs to cater for everyone who wishes to pay to use its services!!!!!

Even people who want to pay their fare in 1p coins?

 

[HSTEd]

What if the card machine goes down? I once booked a haircut and only took my card. When I went to pay their machine had gone offline, so they asked if I had cash, then if I could go across to the ATM to withdraw some.

Those facilities close because they have no capability to handle cash at all.

 

[142blue]

What's being forgotten here is that the plans include the ability to buy on a TVM some of which take cash. Staff will be there to help and support if you don't know what you are doing to begin with

There will also be mobile retailers on Avanti too just not behind a desk in an office

Personally think these plans stink and it's all being done too quick

Fares should have been simplified first

Solve the issue of cross London ticketing on CCST

Find a way to make all rovers and rangers available

Get rid of the split ticket scam but modify fares accordingly

Make railcards digital or apply online or by post

Keep a few offices at larger stations where demand requires it

I came from a stations role and know how quiet ticket offices can actually be. Two people opening up, another two hours later, two more starting at lunchtime etc was not cost effective at all. I wouldn't run my business like that so being more efficient is absolutely key and paying people to sit there when there's no customers isn't great

 

[Falcon1200]

The railway needs to cater for everyone who wishes to pay to use its services!!!!!

Absolutely; Businesses exist to serve their customers, not vice versa.

Even people who want to pay their fare in 1p coins?

Another ridiculous statement; How often does that happen? It is a long while since my 6 1/2 years as a ticket office clerk, but it was back when cash, cheques or credit cards were the only way of paying, and even then no-one, ever, tried to pay their fare in 1p coins.

 

[Hadders]

Of course it should. For example requiring a smartphone and for it to be somehow connected with a form of payment is not acceptable.

Just to be clear it is not, and will not be, a requirement to use a smartphone to travel by train.

 

[1D54]

Get rid of the split ticket scam but modify fares accordingly

You make it sound as if the vast number of people who split are doing something wrong.

 

[Turtle]

What's being forgotten here is that the plans include the ability to buy on a TVM some of which take cash. Staff will be there to help and support if you don't know what you are doing to begin with

There will also be mobile retailers on Avanti too just not behind a desk in an office

Personally think these plans stink and it's all being done too quick

Fares should have been simplified first

Solve the issue of cross London ticketing on CCST

Find a way to make all rovers and rangers available

Get rid of the split ticket scam but modify fares accordingly

Make railcards digital or apply online or by post

Keep a few offices at larger stations where demand requires it

I came from a stations role and know how quiet ticket offices can actually be. Two people opening up, another two hours later, two more starting at lunchtime etc was not cost effective at all. I wouldn't run my business like that so being more efficient is absolutely key and paying people to sit there when there's no customers isn't great

Split ticket is hardly a scam but I agree fares should be redesigned appropriately to reflect any reduction in cost.

 

[Hadders]

Get rid of the split ticket scam but modify fares accordingly

Feel free to post your proposals on how this could be achieved in a new thread, remembering that passengers won’t want to pay more than they currently do and the Government won’t want to provide any additional subsidy.

We are also likely to have some questions

 

[Krokodil]

The railway still does by way of warrant accounts, though who knows for how much longer.

Almost all warrants are issued by the public sector. Probation, courts, DWP etc.

Staff will be there to help and support if you don't know what you are doing to begin with

Just as long as you turn up between 7am and 9am. Otherwise you're on your own.

 

[Fidelis]

Split ticket is hardly a scam but I agree fares should be redesigned appropriately to reflect any reduction in cost.

The difference in prices is usually because some fares were designed for travel to work areas. From my home to Gloucester a return at £16.30 is 60% more than the same distance to Birmingham which costs £10.10.
I cannot see the Treasury reducing the fare to Gloucester and increasing the fare to Birmingham would lead to much uproar by penalising those on low incomes.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Digital exclusion has been highlighted by a House of Lords report but since it mostly will only affect the "little people," not too many people seem to care, especially the DfT and their government masters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2023 ==


I have no argument with that but there is a world of difference between those who do not use modern technology through choice and those who cannot access or cannot use the technology on offer.

I pay for everything using my cheque book.

 

[A0]

You can do "What ifs" for either case though.
What if the till that stores the cash breaks? What if they don't have the right change to give you back? What if the place is robbed and the cash is stolen?

Redundant systems. Have a separate card machine that connects in a different way. Maybe have a main machine that connects to your internet connection and a backup that relies on the mobile networks or something similar. Obviously that isn't doable for every retailer, but not every retailer is going card only. And back in the real world, I can probably count the number of times such an issue has actually occurred to me over the last 15 years or so with my fingers (i.e. less than 10 times) - and the vast majority of those will have been the small portable connect to a phone style machines that rely on the phone then having signal, rather than "regular" retail style card machines.

Bit in bold - there is usually a back up in that contactless won't be accepted if the connection is lost but PIN transactions will be accepted.

It's worth beimg aware that the card issuers systems have availability SLAs of over 99%.

 

[cav1975]

Just to be clear it is not, and will not be, a requirement to use a smartphone to travel by train.

Difficult to trust the railways on this one. Southern have effectively done that at their ANPR car parks. No ticket sales other than by phone or website.

 

[Dr Hoo]

On that point:-

One day when I was travelling on a Manchester bound train a wheelchair passenger was waiting at Lostock Gralam (unstaffed). It took the guard a few minutes to get to the ramp and then to operate the ramp. End result an on-time train became a late train.

Another day there was one at Knutsford. The man from the ticket office was already out with the station ramp and had it set up the second the guard released the doors.

As staffed stations have more passengers in total, you'd probably expect more disabled passengers too.

Of course Northern's use of guards follows a more traditional approach than other operators, so the delays when guards have to deploy ramps are probably longer. And if a consistent train type and platform height was rolled out on each line, it could even eliminate the need for manual deployment of ramps altogether!

If this was the Lostock Gralam case, with a Manchester-bound train, I’m not surprised that the guard was a bit surprised by a wheelchair. According to the station details there is only stepped access to the platform.

Something doesn’t sound right.

Yes sounds like you have an ignorance of disabilities. If you've ever seen Ade Adepitan doing a report for The Travel Show on iPlayer or the BBC News channel you'll know that some wheelchair users can use crotches for a short distance. It's possible the wheelchair passenger in question had a helper who assisted in getting them on the platform, but wasn't allowed to help them on to the train. You should also know that the train ramps are sometimes needed for disabled people who aren't in wheelchairs.

Anyway I don't know whether the guard was expecting them has anything to do with it. On class 150s Northern guards never or close release the doors from the middle where the ramp is, so they are always going to delay the train if they have to use the ramp at an intermediate station.

Just to tidy this up, I have plenty of experience of disabilities, thank you @northwichcat . This includes having been a station manager and manager in many other railway functions including station enhancements to provide better access, new rolling stock introduction with enhanced facilities for the disabled, and having close relatives who made 'partial' use of wheelchairs.

My real point was that there is a world of difference between the Knutsford case - where a station staff member was aware of a customer's needs in advance and thus able to be ready with a ramp - and the Lostock Gralam case where the guard would have had no advanced notice and quite probably was unclear what help (if any) was needed. As the doors opened I can imagine them wondering if the person in the wheelchair was actually 'trapped' on the platform after being unloaded erroneouslyfrom a previous train but then being unable to leave the station. Alternatively, if they had partial mobility they might wish or be able to join the train without deploying the ramp, or they still had the helper who would deal with it. By the time that the guard had fully investigated the situation and established that the ramp was indeed needed, precious time would have been lost.

An opposite comparison might be if a guard had a wheelchair passenger on their train and would be immediately ready with the train ramp to enable them to alight at a staffed station. However, if the passenger was then going to require further assistance it might take a couple of minutes to attract the staff's attention.

Of course, every situation is unique. Back in BR's day I recall a terribly sad incident in Scotland. A member of InterCity staff at Edinburgh had unwisely loaded a wheelchair-bound passenger into the rear (First Class) coach of an HST as this had a dedicated space. The train went forward to Glasgow Queen Street where the coach was off the end of the platform so the passenger was unable to alight. Someone then decided to take the passenger back to Falkirk High, where the coach would be platformed. The passenger was then stranded at Falkirk High because there was no wheelchair access to the Glasgow-bound platform and no wheelchair accessible taxis were available in Falkirk.

Obviously this was all in the days before mobile phones. It was eventually decided that a wheelchair accessible minibus would be hired in Glasgow and sent out to Falkirk. However, before it arrived the passenger had sadly become so distressed that they had a heart attack and died.

This was in circumstances where all the locations involved were generously staffed.

 

[island]

I pay for everything using my cheque book.

How does that work with grocery shopping? I’m not aware of any supermarkets accepting cheques.