Will be interesting to see what comes out of the wash as we've been told first units transfer north for December timetable change, with all transferred by May 24. To this end the training on 323s is being planned now for taking place later this year.
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
- Thread starter northwichcat
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It just sounds like the OLR Northern intends to make full use of the WMR 323 fleet when it arrives rather than imposing a raft of cancellations in future timetables due to a lack of the required traction knowledge. This training is a long term ambition and must be started well in advance. Northern are in the advantageous position of already being in possession of the same type of stock to begin training.
This is no reason to suggest the 769s will be leaving with the 319s, although they may be displaced from Southport services by electrification.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Yes, the 319s lease ends much earlier, their replacement is more in place, as 769s rely on Wigan-Bolton and Manchester-Stalybridge being electrified before they can be replaced.
I feel like the 769s will go after the electrifications are done but nothing is forcing that to happen so we'll just have to see in 2 years.
childwallblues
Established Member
I assume that only Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Piccadilly crews are trained on 323s. Is this correct?
There doesn’t currently seem to be anything confirmed regarding changes to the service pattern following electrification. I doubt there will be 2tph Wigan - Stalybridge, but if Southport services go via Atherton, there will be no reason to continue running 769s.
Note the Sprinters currently run Piccadilly - Hazel Grove shuttles entirely under the wires throughout because of the need to interwork with Buxton services some hours and not other electric services e.g. the Alderley Edge and tell me there isn’t continued use for the 769s.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Use of 769s on the Hazel Grove/Buxton route would require costly and disruptive crew training on the traction. Unlikely considering the leases only have a couple of years to run. Much more likely they will remain on routes that can be worked by crews who already have the appropriate competencies.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Hmmm - all WMR 323s gone in ten months - that is hugely optimistic in my view - but I am not from WMR so don't know the state of play with New St crew training on 730/0s. I don't think there has been any driving training runs around Birmingham just yet.
Greybeard33
Established Member
AIUI it is only 17 of the 26 WMR 323s that are earmarked for the initial cascade to Northern, to replace the Northern 319s. The remaining 9 units might possibly follow in 2025, to replace the 769s.
But I concur that the May 2024 date seems highly optimistic even for 17.
mcnw35282
Member
Sorry if I'm missing something here...but I thought it'd be impossible to wire Wigan to Southport without substantial work being done to the tunnel under Wallgate...hence the need for bi modes on this route?
There is a need for Diesels on this route. The need for bi-modes comes from running under the wires from Bolton, formerly to Alderley Edge which made the majority of the distance under the wires, now only to Oxford Road.
If the 323s take the paths on the electrified line to Bolton and Southport services are sent on the unelectrified Atherton line, this will remove the need for bi-modes.
mcnw35282
Member
Ah! I mistakenly thought the bit they're electrifying at the moment was the Atherton line...
jonesy3001
Established Member
No it's the line from lostock jct to wigan north western
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
They're electrifying into Wigan North Western, not Wallgate
Or strictly speaking Lostock Junction - Wigan Station Junction
They electrified into Wigan North Western with the WCML how many years ago?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
First electrified train (according to Wikipedia) ran on the 23rd of July 1973, almost exactly 50 years ago.
However they have not yet electrified into North Western from Ince, which is what I meant.
mcnw35282
Member
Be a shame if they were to move the 769’s away from Southport…there’s something quite refreshing hearing the whine of electric traction motors on an unelectrified line…
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Yes their unique noise was once an alarm to me telling me I need to leave for school soon, unfortunately they don't come down my line anymore.
There's not as many opportunities for their use away from Southport - Manchester options, however there certainly are options (one of which is scrapping)
py_megapixel
Established Member
I've often thought the Buxton/Hazel Grove diagrams would be ideal for them. They're based in the Manchester area and run a lot of distance under the wires (a slim majority of their overall mileage, I believe, now that Buxtons and Hazel Grove terminators inter-work). They also don't go through Castlefield and have a very long layover at the Buxton end, which hopefully reduces the chance that a technical issue completely destroys the service. And they're currently 4-car 150s, so a 769 would be a like-for-like replacement with most passengers not even noticing the difference.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Good point. Perhaps the 9 "homeless" 323s could help the transition to 730s by buying more time.
Greybeard33
Established Member
childwallblues
Established Member
I have heard that one of the trains to Stalybridge will be from Liverpool Lime Street using four car 331/1. How true this is I am unsure.
Greybeard33
Established Member
That might still be compatible with 2tph of 6-car EMUs from Wigan NW to Manchester via Bolton. The second Wigan train might terminate at Victoria (using the planned new turnback siding east of the station) or go through the Castlefield corridor.
There are currently only 3 x 769s required for daily service but Porterbrook and Northern are planning for this to rise to 6 from the December timetable change. Work is being carried out at Allerton in the intervening period and Porterbrook are intending to carry out C4+ exams on the class. I don’t know the specifics of what that entails but it indicates a determination to vastly increase 769 availability.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
I'd assume those extras would just replace the current 156/150 combos on the same routes the 769s already do.
That’s the intention. Time will tell if they can manage to turn out 6 sets reliably.
Greybeard33
Established Member
As per posts #6614 & #6624 above, the current diagrams have 4 x 769s in traffic (not always achieved), with 2 at Allerton on exams and 2 away at Wolverton for installation of cab aircon and digital mods. By December the mod programme will presumably be finished, so the diagrams will revert to 6 in traffic and 2 at Allerton on exams, the same as before the start of the mod programme.
Things may have changed from the original intention to have four in use. Last week the Allerton Depot Manager told me that it is currently three.
Halwynd
Member
As a slight aside, it looks like the tunnel under Wallgate is going to have to be dealt with sooner or later. The last time I looked both bores were being propped up with supporting equipment which has been in place for quite some time.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Such a change is understandable, given the very poor availability of the units. As you said, a substantial improvement will be needed to have six in traffic reliably. I believe the C4+ overhauls will mainly involve the original Class 319 running gear. But AIUI many of the faults are still in the diesel generator systems and equipment added for the bi-mode conversion.