TfW 175 shortages

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The post by Caaardiff mentions "Booked 150", but there has not been any confirmation of what exactly that means since I questioned it this morning.

This being the post which mentions "Should be 150"

Yes. Some Manchester diagrams are now booked for 15X, meaning it may now be a deliberate allocation if you see a Sprinter on the route (assuming it’s not on a MK4 diagram) This allows 175s to be used on Canton-centric routes such as Maesteg Gloucester and Cardiff Carmarthen Milford Haven - the latter usually with set swaps with Sprinters at Cardiff to keep the 175s West of Cardiff.

 

[sd0733]

This being the post which mentions "Should be 150"

On the diagrams for today the 08:30, 17:30 and 18:30 from Manchester
Were booked for 150s, everything else was on paper booked 175 or Mk4.

 

[craigybagel]

Five minutes isn't that long, depending how many passengers need to "go", and which form of "going" they need.

If it was only 5 minutes, that means only a small amount of people needed to use the toilet. They will wait for as long as is necessary.

It may be possible to use one of the two southbound platforms for a northbound at Hereford since the Birmingham trains often arrive and depart from that island. It may not of course. (In this case the train was Cardiff to Holyhead and would otherwise have used the side with only the one platform)

The signalling does not permit it in normal operation - you can only be routed from the Abergavenny direction into platform 3, or the through road. It can be done using shunt signals, but it would require special authorisation to do so.

In any case it would only make the situation worse as there are only ladies toilets on the island - there are better toilet facilities on the main side of the station.

It would be very TfW if the 175s were working Cheltenham while the 150s went to Manchester.

There would also be a very sensible reason for it. Just because a 175 is in Cardiff at the right time to go to Cheltenham doesn't mean it's in the right place to go on a Manchester diagram. There are plenty of operational reasons behind diagramming, it's not just the roulette people make it out to be.

 

[ValleyLines142]

175105 was on West Wales to Manchester.
Only 175109 was on Maesteg - Cheltenham.


All of those types can work that line. But only 150 & 170 are diagrammed this week. 109 was covering a 150 diagram.

Ah, it's because one of the carriages in 109 is 79705 so I instantly assumed it was 105!

 

[Jez]

So are some Manchester to.South Wales actually booked 150s? Or it it just a case 150s turn up so often they might as well be. I was under the impression they were all booked 175 (aside from those booked MK4 and some Sunday ones which have always been 150) but due to the massive shortage whatever else turned up whether it be a 158, 150 etc was a substitute.

Can anyone tell me which workings on weekdays and Saturdays are booked 150 on paper?

 

[Caaardiff]

Seems to be quite an improvement today.
11 175's out. 2 are 2 car and 9 are 3 cars.
Current line up for Manchester - South Wales departing services
0730 - 3 car 175
0830 - 150
0930 - 2 car 175
1030 - Mk4
1130 - 3 car 175
1230 - 158 (Should be mk4)
1330 - 3 car 175
1430 - 3 car 175 (Should be mk4)
1530 - 3 car 175
1630 - Not allocated (Should be mk4)
1730 - 3 car 175 (Should be 150)
1830 - 150
1930 - 3 car 175
2030 - 2 car 175

So are some Manchester to.South Wales actually booked 150s? Or it it just a case 150s turn up so often they might as well be. I was under the impression they were all booked 175 (aside from those booked MK4 and some Sunday ones which have always been 150) but due to the massive shortage whatever else turned up whether it be a 158, 150 etc was a substitute.

Can anyone tell me which workings on weekdays and Saturdays are booked 150 on paper?

Your question has already been part answered for Fridays workings.
150s are booked on Manchester runs all week currently.
With the unreliability of the 175s and mk4s lately, it's difficult to tell what will actually turn up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

Seems to be quite an improvement today.
11 175's out. 2 are 2 car and 9 are 3 cars.
Current line up for Manchester - South Wales departing services
0730 - 3 car 175
0830 - 150
0930 - 2 car 175
1030 - Mk4
1130 - 3 car 175
1230 - 158 (Should be mk4)
1330 - 3 car 175
1430 - 3 car 175 (Should be mk4)
1530 - 3 car 175
1630 - Not allocated (Should be mk4)
1730 - 3 car 175 (Should be 150)
1830 - 150
1930 - 3 car 175
2030 - 2 car 175

The post by Caaardiff mentions "Booked 150", but there has not been any confirmation of what exactly that means since I questioned it this morning.

It means it is planned to be a 150

 

[FrodshamJnct]

150229 on 1H82 this morning from Llandudno Jn to the airport, just been past the bottom of my garden.

 

[Jez]

Your question has already been part answered for Fridays workings.
150s are booked on Manchester runs all week currently.
With the unreliability of the 175s and mk4s lately, it's difficult to tell what will actually turn up.

Yes but I wasn't sure If officially they are booked for 150s or whether they are simply covering for an absent 175. It's been difficult to see what's booked for what recently as it's been all over the place.

In the past when people commented on the massive amount of sprinters covering it was always said all Manchesters were booked for 175 regardless of what turns up. If there are still 12 175 diagrams there should still be enough for most of the non MK4 Manchester to South diagrams

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

This being the post which mentions "Should be 150"

I assume the 1730.and 1830 are both booked 150 on weekdays. If so that's poor as both of these are particularly busy whenever I've used them. Both ideally need to be at least 3 cars (and the 1730 almost always was).

I understand totally the need to use 150s as subs when a 175 fails or isn't available but to actually have booked workings for 150s at peak time on weekdays seems poor.

 

[Philip]

Does the 17:30 from Manchester tend to empty out after Crewe? I remember travelling on it many years ago and by Shrewsbury it was fairly quiet. Also if this is true then worth remembering there are Avanti and Northern services to Crewe and a standalone Cross Country (if it still runs) around the same time, so perhaps it's not essential it gets the 3 coaches because of the other options available.

 

[Caaardiff]

To be perfectly honest it seems to change every week so it's not worth trying to track it.
I believe due to poor reliability, some going off lease and more 197s coming in there's only 9 175 diagrams now. This week they were all on Manchester services.

 

[Jez]

To be perfectly honest it seems to change every week so it's not worth trying to track it.
I believe due to poor reliability, some going off lease and more 197s coming in there's only 9 175 diagrams now. This week they were all on Manchester services.

Ok thanks for explaining.

 

[craigybagel]

IIRC in the LTP diagrams only the 2155 Cardiff - Crewe and 2309 Shrewsbury - Cardiff are booked for 150s. Manchester should be alternating 175s and MKIVs all day, and Holyhead mostly 197s, with 1 175 and the daily peak MKIV service.

However every week there are STP amendments that change this, and then there are often changes on the day due to last minute unit failures or lack of trained crews.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

IIRC in the LTP diagrams only the 2155 Cardiff - Crewe and 2309 Shrewsbury - Cardiff are booked for 150s. Manchester should be alternating 175s and MKIVs all day, and Holyhead mostly 197s, with 1 175 and the daily peak MKIV service.

However every week there are STP amendments that change this, and then there are often changes on the day due to last minute unit failures or lack of trained crews.

Surely there’ll be more than one MKIV service to Holyhead eventually? Aren’t there supposed to be three?

I’ve noticed no 197s work Cardiff Holyhead diagrams that start or finish in Cardiff yet.

 

[Jez]

Does the 17:30 from Manchester tend to empty out after Crewe? I remember travelling on it many years ago and by Shrewsbury it was fairly quiet. Also if this is true then worth remembering there are Avanti and Northern services to Crewe and a standalone Cross Country (if it still runs) around the same time, so perhaps it's not essential it gets the 3 coaches because of the other options available.

Sometimes it can but sometimes its very busy until much further. The 1830 is one I've often caught back from Manchester and its usally been a two car but more often than not until recent times it Was a 175. That used to be busy until Shrewsbury and then would quieten down. It also didn't help it called at all the stops between Crewe and Shrewsbury due to no stopper service at that time from Crewe.

 

[Caaardiff]

It helps to stable one of the mk4's at Holyhead due to space restrictions on other Depots. Ideally the Mk4's are better suited to Manchester services for a consistent product offering, where there will also be demand for First.
3-4 car 197's are fine for Holyhead - Cardiff services where demand for First class will be lower as most people aren't doing the full journey from North - South. Whereas a lot of people on Manchester services are going towards South Wales.

 

[craigybagel]

Surely there’ll be more than one MKIV service to Holyhead eventually? Aren’t there supposed to be three?

There were. This was reduced back to one in the May TT change to ease the load on the fleet, and to leave a rake in Canton during the day for static training. It's unknown if it will come back or not, but they were probably the services least demanding of 1st class provision.

I’ve noticed no 197s work Cardiff Holyhead diagrams that start or finish in Cardiff yet.

They do feature in the LTP diagrams, I'm sure it'll happen soon when there's enough trained drivers at Cardiff.

 

[sd0733]

Surely there’ll be more than one MKIV service to Holyhead eventually? Aren’t there supposed to be three?

All depends whether HD08 is ever authorised for reactivation. If it is then the daytime Holyheads will be reintroduced, if its not then all that's booked will be what's there now.

 

[craigybagel]

I assume the 1730.and 1830 are both booked 150 on weekdays. If so that's poor as both of these are particularly busy whenever I've used them. Both ideally need to be at least 3 cars (and the 1730 almost always was).

I understand totally the need to use 150s as subs when a 175 fails or isn't available but to actually have booked workings for 150s at peak time on weekdays seems poor.

In the LTP the 1730 is booked for a 3 car 175 and the 1830 for MKIVs. For various reasons that's not often achievable right now.

Does the 17:30 from Manchester tend to empty out after Crewe? I remember travelling on it many years ago and by Shrewsbury it was fairly quiet. Also if this is true then worth remembering there are Avanti and Northern services to Crewe and a standalone Cross Country (if it still runs) around the same time, so perhaps it's not essential it gets the 3 coaches because of the other options available.

The XC is now nonstop Stockport - Stafford. Pre COVID this would have been a nightmare - both the XC and TfW services were F&S leaving Manchester most nights. Now Wilmslow and Crewe passengers only have the TfW service, but it doesn't seem to be any busier than it was pre COVID.

I travelled on it from Crewe last week, and despite the fact the 1630 had failed at Crewe so it had a double load of passengers on the 3 car 175 still had empty seats available leaving Crewe.

 

[Sunil_P]

Could have sworn I saw a TfW livery 175 at Ilford, but I was on the top deck of a moving bus at the time!

 

[Jez]

I've noticed a 175 is also at Alstom just South of Manchester Piccadilly. Anyone know which 175 this is and why it's there ?

 

[Anonymous10]

Could have sworn I saw a TfW livery 175 at Ilford, but I was on the top deck of a moving bus at the time!

Yes a 175 went there for repairs after a fire.

 

[Envoy]

So, now into July and the misery goes on with TfW. I know of a couple of people who travel between Manchester & Cardiff and they refuse to use the trains and travel by car instead. I guess that only those that have to will use trains on The Marches route? Goodness knows how many people have been driven away from this route by the appalling and prolonged use of 2 car 150’ & 153’s?

I was at Cardiff Central yesterday (Saturday with fine weather) and 2 car 150’s were on the Barry Island services from the valleys. All were rammed. Obviously TfW have taken some 150’s from the valleys to use as long distance trains. I also saw a 2 car 150 working a Maesteg to Cheltenham service - presumably because many of those nice 170’s have also gone?

Why have 175’s gone off lease when nobody else is using them? Is it because TfW can't maintain them because Chester depot has gone over to 197’s?

 

[Anonymous10]

So, now into July and the misery goes on with TfW. I know of a couple of people who travel between Manchester & Cardiff and they refuse to use the trains and travel by car instead. I guess that only those that have to will use trains on The Marches route? Goodness knows how many people have been driven away from this route by the appalling and prolonged use of 2 car 150’ & 153’s?

I was at Cardiff Central yesterday (Saturday with fine weather) and 2 car 150’s were on the Barry Island services from the valleys. All were rammed. Obviously TfW have taken some 150’s from the valleys to use as long distance trains. I also saw a 2 car 150 working a Maesteg to Cheltenham service - presumably because many of those nice 170’s have also gone?

Why have 175’s gone off lease when nobody else is using them? Is it because TfW can't maintain them because Chester depot has gone over to 197’s?

They can't maintain them and there appears to me a new user for the 2 car 175s as it has now been revealed there is no opportunity to extend the lease. The 3 car units I'm not so sure on but they haven't gone off lease.

 

[Jez]

They can't maintain them and there appears to me a new user for the 2 car 175s as it has now been revealed there is no opportunity to extend the lease. The 3 car units I'm not so sure on but they haven't gone off lease.

I don't think TFW want to extend the lease. They have said for ages they will be gone by end of this year.

 

[Anonymous10]

I don't think TFW want to extend the lease. They have said for ages they will be gone by end of this year.

I agree, however some seemingly reliable posters on this forum have implied the /0 units have a possible home.

 

[Jez]

I agree, however some seemingly reliable posters on this forum have implied the 2 /0 units have a possible home.

Yes I agree they probably do have a new home but can't be said publicly yet.

But I think as soon as more 197s can start in passenger service and they can run the West Wales routes the 175s will go. They can wait longer for the 197s on Cambrian Birmingham etc as they will have the 158s for longer

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

So, now into July and the misery goes on with TfW. I know of a couple of people who travel between Manchester & Cardiff and they refuse to use the trains and travel by car instead. I guess that only those that have to will use trains on The Marches route? Goodness knows how many people have been driven away from this route by the appalling and prolonged use of 2 car 150’ & 153’s?

I was at Cardiff Central yesterday (Saturday with fine weather) and 2 car 150’s were on the Barry Island services from the valleys. All were rammed. Obviously TfW have taken some 150’s from the valleys to use as long distance trains. I also saw a 2 car 150 working a Maesteg to Cheltenham service - presumably because many of those nice 170’s have also gone?

Why have 175’s gone off lease when nobody else is using them? Is it because TfW can't maintain them because Chester depot has gone over to 197’s?

Yes Chester is struggling to maintain both 197 and 175 but until enough 197s can totally replace them they can't get rid of them. It seems to be a never ending wait for them (197) to start running West of Cardiff !

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I agree, however some seemingly reliable posters on this forum have implied the 2 /0 units have a possible home.

About five drivers yesterday confirmed they’d all been told it by the hierarchy too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

Yes I agree they probably do have a new home but can't be said publicly yet.

God knows why. I fail to see what telling people would do.

 

[Western 52]

Whilst 150s and 153s run the Marches line, there are plenty of 175s today in west Wales, including 175010 just now! Just like the old days!

 

[Jez]

About five drivers yesterday confirmed they’d all been told it by the hierarchy too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==


God knows why. I fail to see what telling people would do.

Me neither but it probably can't be made public yet for whatever reason.

 

[47444]

Ah, it's because one of the carriages in 109 is 79705 so I instantly assumed it was 105!

To be honest, I've lost track of the reformations. In which unit is 79759?

Come to that, can anyone provide a full list of the current class 175 formations?

TIA