Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[A0]

It would appear that way I agree. If the changes as currently proposed go ahead I'd say it's likely to make everyone unhappy; including the people who currently buy things through ticket offices, who work in ticket offices, the trade union committees, passenger groups, local politicians and even some of those who use stations but don't buy tickets through ticket offices.

Bit in bold - apart from the ~90% of ticket purchasers who are already buying either online or use a TVM at the station - for whom it makes no odds whatsoever.

I disagree, de-staffing the station isn't of benefit to those people. It's clear that's what is planned.

Shifting the goalposts are we ?

You said it would make everyone "unhappy" - I pointed out that since ~90% of tickets aren't bought at the ticket office, it would be of little odds to most people. You then say it's not of "benefit" - that's different.

 

[BrummieBobby]

Yes, you have to pay at the first opportunity. You may need to get a Permit to Travel or Promise to Pay if applicable to that TOC.

Thanks for the quick reply; said station used to have a Permit to Travel machine that accepted coins, but it was replaced several years back. Am I required to seek out the guard on the train, or am I entitled to wait for him to come to me?

 

[A0]

As an aside, am I correct in thinking that the TOC managing a station have to provide the means to pay in the manner that I want?

So if I turn up at my local station (Ungated, soon to lose its ticket office, already has a card only TVM) and want to pay in cash to travel to another ungated station, am I correct in thinking that I am allowed to board without a ticket?

Bit in bold - to a point. It has to be a legal tender which the TOC has stated they will accept. A vendor is under no obligation to accept cash or card or cheques - they are quite within their rights to determine which payment methods they will or won't accept.

 

[northwichcat]

Much like if you fall ill or the train is cancelled once you've walked away from the booking window with that little piece of orange card in your hand.

Also, you obtain a refund.

If I don't travel and it's not the railway's fault I believe I'm liable for an admin fee. I think there's a much greater chance of not knowing I'll be ill or the train won't run the further in advance I book. If I book 3 weeks in advance the unions may call a strike day before then, if I buy a ticket for the next train at the station then they're not going to call a strike before the train arrives.

 

[pt_mad]

No - because in the case of Stratford most of the tourists are *arriving* there from somewhere else, so have already bought their tickets. They don't just arrive in Stratford by teleport you know.

On Redditch, what's the difference between Redditch (pop'n 85k) and somewhere like Uxbridge or Edgware (pop'n 75-80k) at the top of the tube network ? Most journeys from Redditch will be into Birmingham in the same way most journeys from Uxbridge or Edgware will be towards Central London - Uxbridge and Edgware don't have ticket offices at their Underground stations.

But you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Its more the point that by closing the ticket office they are actually de-staffing the whole station apart from roving mobile staff visiting.
They have sold the idea that existing staff will be moved onto ticket halls in the same places to serve customers but the reality appears to be that most places are just being stripped of permanent staffing.

Just because most people probably turn up to Stratford upon Avon with a ticket already doesn't mean it's ok for no staff to be on the station for a town the size of that imo. Staffing would be completely justified imo.

Monday to Saturday 6.05am - 6.45pm

becoming

Weekly visits by mobile staff

Is not "helping customers" - it's turning local stations into unstaffed, unsafe crime ridden dumps, similar to Manchester Metrolink's stations badlands on the Oldham line.

Exactly this.
Those who keeps arguing 'but nobody is buying tickets at the window' are not getting that a majority of places appear to be losing a staff presence altogether.

I will dare to assume that more posters than not are men on the forum. It just seems to be the more typical demographic of those who have enough of an interest in rail to post on a forum about it. Certainly seems to be the case with train enthusiasts anyway and I don't think anyone would argue with that.

I would not wish for the women in my family to have to travel alone from station to station which are staffed currently and planned.to be de-staffed during dark nights later on the evenings, end of.

This is likely to put anyone who can't handle themselves off in the cities at night, simple as.

"Weekly visits by mobile staff" seems to be pretty pointless as people won't know when they're supposed to be there. A clear prelude to de-staffing.

It says to me it's probably likely to be some kind of arrangement where a mobile staff member drives about according to where booked assistance is required, does the assist, and then goes to the next one. Probably goes back and picks up the rubbish and locks the waiting rooms and toilets later in the day.

Hardly skilled career type employment compared to existing ticket office roles.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure that somebody sat alone in a ticket office is going to be doing much to prevent you from getting shot, quite frankly.

Someone sat in a ticket office, with a screen showing the CCTV may spot suspicious activity and phone BTP before a passenger spots it and decides what they are supposed to do in such circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the quick reply; said station used to have a Permit to Travel machine that accepted coins, but it was replaced several years back. Am I required to seek out the guard on the train, or am I entitled to wait for him to come to me?

You can wait for them to come to you but should attract their attention when they do and actively ask to buy a ticket, not let them walk past if they don't say anything.

 

[pt_mad]

Someone sat in a ticket office, with a screen showing the CCTV may spot suspicious activity and phone BTP before a passenger spots it and decides what they are supposed to do in such circumstances.

And 95 percent of the time, if something dangerous is occuring on the station then someone will go and tell the staff member as they know they are likely to be near the ticket office.

In the future you are not going to know whether mobile staff are due on site or where they might be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I don't travel and it's not the railway's fault I believe I'm liable for an admin fee. I think there's a much greater chance of not knowing I'll be ill or the train won't run the further in advance I book. If I book 3 weeks in advance the unions may call a strike day before then, if I buy a ticket for the next train at the station then they're not going to call a strike before the train arrives.

It's not very common for people to completely unexpectedly fall seriously ill between leaving home and boarding the train, and to be honest if I did (e.g. because of being involved in a road traffic accident on the way, or having a completely unexpected heart attack or stroke, or even having an epileptic fit or something) £10 admin fee would be the least of my concerns.

If the reason for deciding not to travel is disruption, however minor, a full refund is due.

 

[A0]

Someone sat in a ticket office, with a screen showing the CCTV may spot suspicious activity and phone BTP before a passenger spots it and decides what they are supposed to do in such circumstances.

The beauty of CCTV is you could have a central control room with one person monitoring four or five stations - if whatever is happening requires the BTP a member of station staff probably won't intervene until the BTP arrive, so it makes no odds whether they are on site, or sitting in an office 5 miles away.

 

[Lewisham2221]

If I don't travel and it's not the railway's fault I believe I'm liable for an admin fee. I think there's a much greater chance of not knowing I'll be ill or the train won't run the further in advance I book. If I book 3 weeks in advance the unions may call a strike day before then, if I buy a ticket for the next train at the station then they're not going to call a strike before the train arrives.

I'd probably check my train was running before leaving the house. And spend the extra minute or two buying my ticket at the same time.

 

[A0]

If I don't travel and it's not the railway's fault I believe I'm liable for an admin fee. I think there's a much greater chance of not knowing I'll be ill or the train won't run the further in advance I book. If I book 3 weeks in advance the unions may call a strike day before then, if I buy a ticket for the next train at the station then they're not going to call a strike before the train arrives.

Oddly enough I booked tickets a couple of months back and then strike action occurred. To be fair to the TOC, they e-mailed me a few days in advance, there was a direct link to a refund page and the refund was back on my card inside 24 hours. As a customer experience it was fine - did exactly what it needed to.

 

[Philip]

Right - so what's the difference between printing it at home and getting the station to print it ? Same information - so no difference.

And AI will, in the next 5 years, improve beyond recognition the quality of information presentation on a mobile device.

Well clearly a number of TOCs, particularly Northern and WMR, don't see it quite the same way; hence their decision to retain a number of ticket offices to act as 'hubs' for people who would be of greater benefit in using the ticket office.

 

[pt_mad]

The beauty of CCTV is you could have a central control room with one person monitoring four or five stations - if whatever is happening requires the BTP a member of station staff probably won't intervene until the BTP arrive, so it makes no odds whether they are on site, or sitting in an office 5 miles away.

Having a place of sanctuary with a member of staff present who is trained in what action to take and probably has seen incidents before is obviously far.more desirable than a station which has always been staffed being completely unstaffed apart from a mobile worker to open and lock up the toilets.

 

[Topological]

To what extent do you consult on closure then "listen" to keep open locations which are more profitable?

 

[BrummieBobby]

You can wait for them to come to you but should attract their attention when they do and actively ask to buy a ticket, not let them walk past if they don't say anything.

Thanks for the clarification

These proposals are such a backward step in terms of making the railway a welcoming, safe environment for passengers. How many of the stations listed in the WMR area, for example, aren't just losing their ticket office staff, but also the staff who spread salt in the winter, open up the waiting room, keep the place neat and tidy, keep an eye on confused / distressed passengers, keep an eye on that lone woman traveling late at night or report issues that require an emergency response from the signaller? (I have received several such calls)

All to be replaced by "mobile teams, deployed on a flexible basis." I would be interested know how many hours these mobile teams will spend at each station that is going to lose its ticket office.

 

[pt_mad]

Well clearly a number of TOCs, particularly Northern and WMR, don't see it quite the same way; hence their decision to retain a number of ticket offices to act as 'hubs' for people who would be of greater benefit in using the ticket office.

Does it actually say these hub stations will retain their ticket office? My reading of it was just that staff would be there to assist with purchases, which could mean customer service at the TVMs? Maybe I have misunderstood on that one?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it actually say these hib stations will retain their ticket office? My reading of it was just that staff would be there to assist with purchases, which could mean customer service at the TVMs? Maybe I have misunderstood.

It's a bit unclear what WMT will do, but for Northern selected ticket offices are explicitly remaining open.

 

[Philip]

Does it actually say these hib stations will retain their ticket office? My reading of it was just that staff would be there to assist with purchases, which could mean customer service at the TVMs? Maybe I have misunderstood.

I haven't looked properly at WMR but Northern specifically state that they plan to keep the ticket office at 18 of their stations.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd probably check my train was running before leaving the house. And spend the extra minute or two buying my ticket at the same time.

If I bought a ticket 5 minutes before leaving the house for a train to Manchester, it would probably show the train is "at platform" at Chester. If the driver discovers a fault on switching ends at Chester, the train may not leave Chester. If I buy at the station the train is probably between Cuddington and Greenbank, at the time of purchase, so the chance of it not reaching Northwich is significantly lower.

It's not very common for people to completely unexpectedly fall seriously ill between leaving home and boarding the train

To be pedantic you seem to think if people are buying an e-ticket it's the last thing they should do before going out the door. The last things I'd plan to do involve putting on outdoor clothing, using the toilet, filling a reusable water bottle, ensuring I've packed everything I need etc. If I'm buying an e-ticket it's not going to be in the five minutes before I leave my home.

 

[pt_mad]

Well clearly a number of TOCs, particularly Northern and WMR, don't see it quite the same way; hence their decision to retain a number of ticket offices to act as 'hubs' for people who would be of greater benefit in using the ticket office.

It's a bit unclear what WMT will do, but for Northern selected ticket offices are explicitly remaining open.

I haven't looked properly at WMR but Northern specifically state that they plan to keep the ticket office at 18 of their stations.

Yeah, my interpretation from the wording was that the hub stations seemed to crop up for ones which mainly currently have either a platform staff presence or a gate line presence. I interpreted that to mean that these staff would remain on hand to help with TVMs where necessary.

I don't think we can draw the conclusion that ticket offices are planned to remain at those places as I couldn't see where it explicitly made that clear.

 

[Starmill]

Shifting the goalposts are we ?

You said it would make everyone "unhappy" - I pointed out that since ~90% of tickets aren't bought at the ticket office, it would be of little odds to most people. You then say it's not of "benefit" - that's different.

No, it's just about time. The loss of staff isn't a disbenefit until you actually experience something negative which could have been mitigated by staff. That isn't going to happen immediately, if you're lucky enough never to be disrupted ever I accept that you might find someone for whom it makes no difference at all, but unless they're someone who barely ever travels, everyone will be disrupted eventually.

 

[A0]

Well clearly a number of TOCs, particularly Northern and WMR, don't see it quite the same way; hence their decision to retain a number of ticket offices to act as 'hubs' for people who would be of greater benefit in using the ticket office.

Well no - they're retaining something at a limited number of large stations for the time being as part of a phased change. How long that remains, will depend on how well they are used.

If you go back to the 1950s the majority of stations were staffed and had somebody selling tickets. During the 1960s and 1970s that reduced and now you have about 50% of stations completely unstaffed, though most have some form of ticket selling even if it is a TVM.

Whether those large stations retain a ticket office, or ticket desk in 5 - 10 years, who knows ?

The example of Sweden which has closed *all* of its ticket offices was given by @jamesontheroad back in post 184. Sweden isn't some backward, regressive country. It has people who are disabled, it has old people - they've all adapted and presumably still use Sweden's rail network. So to think that what is being consulted on is what will be set in stone forevermore is probably a bit optimistic.

As an aside, I first started using TVMs back in 1991 - when Network South East rolled a number of them out in their area and I was travelling to college on a daily basis. Why did I use it ? Simple, because it was quicker and more convenient that queuing up. If I was making the same journey now, I'd book my tickets on the TOC's app and use that - why? Convenience.

 

[basfordlad]

Surprised Birmingham new street is down for closure

 

[geordieblue]

Wouldn't bother me. It's not in a bad area, demonstrated by the building being left open 24/7/363 (might even not be locked on Xmas Day/Boxing Day).

I presume in that case you object to the removal of staffing in 'bad areas'? E.g. much of Merseyrail?

 

[Starmill]

Wouldn't bother me. It's not in a bad area, demonstrated by the building being left open 24/7/363 (might even not be locked on Xmas Day/Boxing Day).

There is a signalling centre and traincrew depot next door, but the only staff normally on the station itself are the booking office staff (when open) and the coffee kiosk (same). Pre COVID there was also a contract security guard who was primarily there to dissuade suicides but there isn't any more.

OK but what I actually said was it is bad to destaff stations completely. You say you wouldn't be bothered but how can you know that until you're stranded at an unstaffed station?

I can't believe that we're even having this conversation. Destaffing is obviously viable, and in certain cases maybe even justified, but it's most certainly not a benefit to anyone, and most certainly is a disbenefit to passengers as a whole. Even if you think it's not a disbenefit to you personally, if you travel regularly, at some time it absolutely will be. Totally naive to think otherwise.

 

[Class172]

Surprised Birmingham new street is down for closure

I don't think logical deduction can be applied when it comes to determining which stations are planned to retain them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be pedantic you seem to think if people are buying an e-ticket it's the last thing they should do before going out the door. The last things I'd plan to do involve putting on outdoor clothing, using the toilet, filling a reusable water bottle, ensuring I've packed everything I need etc. If I'm buying an e-ticket it's not going to be in the five minutes before I leave my home.

I mostly buy mine, as I said above, on my phone while walking from the car park/cycle parking to the gateline. Often there's not even a need to break stride. Or if not, yes, immediately before leaving home, perhaps even while on the loo. Or if going to the station by bus or taxi, then during that. It takes seconds.

 

[pt_mad]

These proposals are such a backward step in terms of making the railway a welcoming, safe environment for passengers. How many of the stations listed in the WMR area, for example, aren't just losing their ticket office staff, but also the staff who spread salt in the winter, open up the waiting room, keep the place neat and tidy, keep an eye on confused / distressed passengers, keep an eye on that lone woman traveling late at night or report issues that require an emergency response from the signaller? (I have received several such calls)

All to be replaced by "mobile teams, deployed on a flexible basis." I would be interested know how many hours these mobile teams will spend at each station that is going to lose its ticket office.

And it remains to be seen whether facilities are planned to remain open at the stations planned to be de-staffed.

Are they to keep their waiting rooms and toilets?

If there's for example a station where at present you show a rail ticket to gain access to the toilet, will the toilet just remain open all day?

IF any waiting rooms and toilets are opened in the morning at unstaffed locations, will they be free from vandalism and anti social behaviour and groups of youths or people sheltering who have nowhere else to go?

This model really has yet to be proven on a wide scale as far as I can see.

Unless of course the reality is that these facilities will also close.

Do pro closure advocates wish for that to happen in the name of progress and savings too?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

No, it's just about time. The loss of staff isn't a disbenefit until you actually experience something negative which could have been mitigated by staff. That isn't going to happen immediately, if you're lucky enough never to be disrupted ever I accept that you might find someone for whom it makes no difference at all, but unless they're someone who barely ever travels, everyone will be disrupted eventually.

Precisely.

And it's also about fear of crime. Which plays a huge part of many people's lives who probably don't happen to post on railway forums.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there's for example a station where at present you show a rail ticket to gain access to the toilet, will the toilet just remain open all day?

Some stations (Town Green I think is one) already have a solution to this - a button to press to request for it to be opened remotely, upon which you can be asked to show your ticket to a camera.