• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

Status
Not open for further replies.

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
4,335
Location
Swansea
Given anyone can get hold of a card reader (e.g. someone selling things at a car boot sale) I wonder how easy it'll be for fraudsters in busy places to "sell" train tickets then simply melt into the crowd? And getting one's credit card out on a busy concourse is likely to tempt snatch and grab thriving. How on earth will a mobile ticket sales person manage a "queue" waiting for tickets? It's all going to go horribly wrong and there will be another u turn eventually .....

Presumably "mobile" will involve some form of table/stand like the gateline ones?

I do see the concern about fraudsters, but again this is more a motivation to move to better digital ticketing.

Getting tickets for as many people as possible as digital as possible, whilst not penalising users of paper, must be the focus.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Another thought. Let’s assume two things:

1 - Labour announce they’re opposed to this (I know, they don’t like being clear on stuff a lot of the time)

2 - Labour win a majority in a general election in autumn 2024

Would all the proposed changes have been made by then? If so, how easily could they be undone?

My guess is Labour will oppose the changes. They'll include a vague commitment in their manifesto, ensuring the ones in marginal seats are saved but with some closures still going ahead.

He was right you know

He was wrong. He said all ticket station offices to close.

Yes, then you wouldn't have the absurd situation of Manchester Piccadilly closing, but Salford Crescent staying open.

Not necessairly. The insurance for cash TVMs out in the open at Salford Crescent is going to be much higher than on the concourse at Piccadilly
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,357
Location
Bolton
Anyone with half a brain can see it’s a smokescreen for just cutting staff.
I'd say that it's not even much of a smokescreen in the case of Northern and others where hours are comically restricted, especially when they're restricted to the quietest times of day. They're actually being fairly overt that this is about substantially de-staffing minor stations. We know they're required to make substantial budget cuts, and that this is a key way they plan to do it.

There is absolutely no point whatsoever in staffing a minor station 1000 - 1200 or similar. Such staffing may as well be abandoned, and my view is that's likely to happen in the future if the proposed changes go ahead. Similarly with the stations staffed to unspecified hours.

Things like emptying the bins, doing a litter pick or putting down grit in winter, and topping up the ticket vending machines with blank ticket stock can all be handled by non customer-facing staff or contractors, as is already there case on plenty of routes.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There is an announcement on at least one TOC's website which states (in support of these changes) 'Our proposal is for you to purchase your travel online or via mobile apps before arriving at the station'.

The whole selling point of the rail system is that you don't have to pre-book but can walk up to a station, buy a ticket and board a train.

That statement was from Chiltern, I've not seen it on any others.

If you know anything about the demographics of most of Chiltern's area, you'll know that the number of people not owning smartphones (likely premium ones at that) will be very close to zero. And they have some spectacularly pointless booking offices, such as Aylesbury Vale Parkway (highly questionable why any sort of building was provided at that station given how recent it is).
 

SuspectUsual

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
6,848
Those mistakes and misunderstandings on ticket validity happen whether sold online or face to face - if anything online is *much* clearer because when you're booking it tells you the itenary. I realise some people can't even cope with that - but frankly is the rail network supposed to pander to the less than 1% ?

We've seen plenty of examples on this forum of people caught out by buying online from Trainline and the like, where they think they've bought a ticket A to B, but in fact have a series of splits, some of which are Advances. That just wouldn't happen at a manned ticket office

If we are going to have reform of ticket retail, we need to have wholesale reform of the overall ticketing system first
 

Sir Felix Pole

Established Member
Joined
21 Oct 2012
Messages
2,218
Location
Wilmslow
I wonder when the reverse ferret starts? Plenty of MPs bleating about how their station is a 'special case'. For me the worse thing is that it strengthens the negative perception of the railways amongst the general public on top of the industrial action and chronic unreliability of some operators. Instead of a quiet closure programme that nobody would notice - perusing the station lists there are some that frankly I'm surprised still have a ticket office - they have chosen to go with a slash and burn policy and acres of bad publicity.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Those mistakes and misunderstandings on ticket validity happen whether sold online or face to face - if anything online is *much* clearer because when you're booking it tells you the itenary. I realise some people can't even cope with that - but frankly is the rail network supposed to pander to the less than 1% ?

Nonsense. A well-trained member of ticket office staff can explain exactly what a person's options for buying a ticket are, what restrictions apply and make sure the customer is fully aware of that ticket's validity. As well as assisting them with itinerary enquiries and so on.

You were claiming that the railway shouldn't have to cater for the 10% minority, now it's the 1%. Your argument's all over the place. Do you even ever travel by train?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,357
Location
Bolton
Not necessairly. The insurance for cash TVMs out in the open at Salford Crescent is going to be much higher than on the concourse at Piccadilly
Is there something that says a machine accepting cash is going to be installed at Salford Crescent?
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Hang on- you do realise that the overwhelming majority of stations in the UK are totally unstaffed already, some not even with CCTV - and most never have had staff (or certainly not in modern times) - and yet we don't hear of bandits and crooks accosting every man and their dog every day, do we?

Vandalism and other crime seems to be more common at urban stations at night, rather than at rural stations in the middle of nowhere.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Is there something that says a machine accepting cash is going to be installed at Salford Crescent?

No I'm arguing it won't be done for insurance reasons but the same insurance reasons won't apply to the concourse at Manchester Piccadilly.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
That statement was from Chiltern, I've not seen it on any others.

If you know anything about the demographics of most of Chiltern's area, you'll know that the number of people not owning smartphones (likely premium ones at that) will be very close to zero. And they have some spectacularly pointless booking offices, such as Aylesbury Vale Parkway (highly questionable why any sort of building was provided at that station given how recent it is).

It's already been pointed out to you why AVP has a ticket office, did you miss that post perhaps? Or choose to ignore it? The station opened in 2008 but you seem to believe Chiltern should have been able to predict Covid, the resulting changes in ticket purchase habits and this latest thinly-veiled plan by the DfT to cut staff at stations.
 

Lewisham2221

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2005
Messages
2,751
Location
Staffordshire
I would say the main reasons I don't use the ticket office as first point of call are:
1. Northern aren't committed to having ticket office shifts covered in the event of staff absence.
2. Pdfs and emails being better for work expense claims.
3. Cashback deals.

If none of the above applied i.e. I was making a leisure trip and there was no cashback deal available, then why would I buy prior to arriving at the station?
Why not? The knowledge that you already have your ticket, without having to arrive at the station earlier to allow time to purchase your ticket and allow for any delays in doing so?

Then, if I arrive at the station and have to walk past the ticket office window to get to the TVMs, why would I do that if there's no queue?
Quite. But that in itself does not prevent you from using a TVM or buying online. How many of the 10/12% of people who use the ticket office do so "because they can" or "because it's there" rather than "because they  need to"?

The news last night reported 88%, not 90%. Given even smallish town stations can achieve a quarter to half a million journeys per annum, rounding to the nearest 10% is not appropriate.

If a significant part of the 12% are paying cash and the machines are card only, those passengers will likely get permits to travel and then rely on ticket selling staff being available at the destination - if not, they'll travel for free.
Again, how many of those paying cash would be  truely inconvenienced by not being able to? If I'm paying cash for something, it's usually because either a) it's cash only, or a ridiculously high "minimum spend" for card payments; or b) I've inconveniently ended up with cash (possibly as a result of withdrawing cash for reason a) and spending it somewhere is easier than trying to pay it into my bank account.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
And how many students even know what cash *is* these days? (They're the majority of the locals)

How do international and exchange students buy tickets at Manchester Airport when they arrive at the start of the academic year and won't yet have a UK bank account?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,357
Location
Bolton
The way this is all being done by TOC (and with GBR looming you'd think it wouldn't be) is just bizarre.
I guess the point is that Ministers gave up on the idea of GBR quite a while ago. They know they won't be in government past the next election and there's little chance of any progress before then.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It's already been pointed out to you why AVP has a ticket office, did you miss that post perhaps? Or choose to ignore it? The station opened in 2008 but you seem to believe Chiltern should have been able to predict Covid, the resulting changes in ticket purchase habits and this latest thinly-veiled plan by the DfT to cut staff at stations.

I did miss it I'm afraid, this thread is moving fast. I doubt it was well used then either, though! The station is extremely quiet, and that's even with a load of housing having gone up around it in the last 5 years or so meaning it's more "Aylesbury North" than "Aylesbury ish middle of a field".
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,129
Location
Redcar
I wonder when the reverse ferret starts? Plenty of MPs bleating about how their station is a 'special case'. For me the worse thing is that it strengthens the negative perception of the railways amongst the general public on top of the industrial action and chronic unreliability of some operators. Instead of a quiet closure programme that nobody would notice - perusing the station lists there are some that frankly I'm surprised still have a ticket office - they have chosen to go with a slash and burn policy and acres of bad publicity.
Someone commented that it might be so severe so that some strategic "concessions" can be made later on. "We've listened to the feedback from the consultation and having reviewed it's been decided that xyz ticket office will now remain open" etc etc. I must admit a part of wonders if that might not be the plan.
Nonsense. A well-trained member of ticket office staff can explain exactly what a person's options for buying a ticket are, what restrictions apply and make sure the customer is fully aware of that ticket's validity. As well as assisting them with itinerary enquiries and so on.
Sure, but for every story about a member of ticket office staff knowing their stuff in great detail there's another for when they gave wrong advice, sold the wrong ticket, claimed that something was impossible that isn't, etc etc. It's more complicated than "ticket office good, TVM/online bad".
 

davews

Member
Joined
24 Apr 2021
Messages
1,018
Location
Bracknell
Much discussion about Manchester Piccadilly. Can't comment on that but Waterloo is similar. I have never used the ticket office there as I am like most people just passing through having bought my ticket elsewhere. However when I am passing through I notice there is usually quite a long queue at the ticket offices so clearly there is demand. When I am waiting outside platforms 20-24 by the ticket machines there I have never seen anybody buying a ticket from them. Maybe tells us something...
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Why not? The knowledge that you already have your ticket, without having to arrive at the station earlier to allow time to purchase your ticket and allow for any delays in doing so?

Flip side is if I take ill at the last minute or the train is cancelled then I have a ticket I can't use.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
How do international and exchange students buy tickets at Manchester Airport when they arrive at the start of the academic year and won't yet have a UK bank account?

Are you seriously telling me that in 2024 anyone at all travels internationally without either a major credit/debit card or a prepaid foreign exchange debit card? When going to live abroad? Really? They just don't. This is taking even the RUK Standard Minority to extremes. The person you are talking about simply does not exist.

In 1999, I moved to Germany for a year. I did have a load of cash and travellers' cheques in my pocket (wouldn't be the case now). But I also had both Visa credit and debit cards.

In 2024 an average student probably doesn't use cash at all, they do everything on their smartphone. Even more so if they're from somewhere like China where literally everything is done through WeChat.

I guess the point is that Ministers gave up on the idea of GBR quite a while ago. They know they won't be in government past the next election and there's little chance of any progress before then.

Yes, it does seem this Government are now just sabotaging anything in the hope of freeing up a bit of money to offer tax cuts at the next general election. It really does stink of fish.

I'm supportive of a move to a more modern way of retailing rail travel, including the closure of the majority of small booking offices, but this isn't how to do it.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,549
Location
Yorkshire
I do not claim to be a typical passenger, but since all the problems on the Marches and the tendency to drop trains from timetables before 22:00 there has been more value in having staff around. It makes me wonder whether there is actually a false saving in closing ticket offices.

For example the 05:36 1W13 to Manchester leaves Swansea just after a 05:28 GWR to London and requires a long wait for the 06:38. Taking the 05:28 can get you to Manchester earlier than 1W13 with a change in Bristol Parkway. Alternatively the 05:28 gets to Cardiff for a connection into any 1W13 that starts there. Authorise a ticket on those options and there is no delay repay. Follow the instruction to only use TfW and wait for the 06:38 and 9 times out of 10 it is a complete refund because the later train won't reach Manchester on time and even a minute late ticks past the 1 hour after 1W13 would have arrived. The ticket instructions are very clear, you need more than 61 minutes delay to move away from the booked operator and the 06:38 arrives Manchester 60 minutes after 1W13. Without taking the thread off topic to discuss the ins and outs it is pretty straightforward to see that the decision made at 05:25 in Swansea can save a significant amount of delay repay for even 1 passenger.
I am all for having a visible presence (and it should be visible, not hidden away in a cab or an office) but unfortunately in my experience customers can be treated very poorly at stations when asking to be re-routed; I have very rarely had a good experience. In most cases, if blanket acceptance is not in force, I have more fortune in asking permission from staff on trains (whether that be a Guard, TTI, OBM/OBS is immaterial) than at ticket offices.

The issue you describe occurs irrespective of whether staff are located within ticket offices, at the platform or neither; it's an issue the rail industry needs to address but I don't think it is affected by these proposals in any meaningful way.

If you imagine that at a busy location there is 1 passenger per hour who can be given appropriate discretion then it soon reaches the point where the ticket office pays for itself.
But that is assuming the railway has a policy of minimising delay to passengers in order to reduce Delay Repay liabilities; sadly this is all too often not the case. In any case, if this policy was in place, you'd not need staff in an office to communicate this.
I can see absolutely that the ticket office is not what it was. However, the temptation to deskill and/or totally remove staff from stations has potentially negative consequences financially.
Maybe, but does the railway have fewer passengers now than it used to do decades ago? Are ticket office times increased or reduced today compared to decades ago?

I suspect the answer is that ticket office opening hours are reduced and yet more passengers are travelling; that's certainly the case in my area.
Of course the other alternative is to have a simpler system which says all tickets have full acceptance and advances become flexible tickets as soon as the specific booked train is cancelled / removed from the timetable. It is not beyond the wit of human kind to devise fully digital systems that would simply update the ticket live when changes were made, but in the UK we are not there yet.
Feel free to create a new thread in the appropriate forum section; link to it from here if you like. I'll reply once you've made a new thread as it's a whole new topic in its own right.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,357
Location
Bolton
Windermere, which could really do with the railway, the tourist board and Stagecoach working together to create a "welcome centre" of some kind doing all manner of services from train and bus tickets to hotel bookings.
Funny you mention Windermere, because when it's unstaffed currently the ticket vending machine is inaccessible inside the locked waiting room.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
I did miss it I'm afraid, this thread is moving fast. I doubt it was well used then either, though! The station is extremely quiet, and that's even with a load of housing having gone up around it in the last 5 years or so meaning it's more "Aylesbury North" than "Aylesbury ish middle of a field".

The fact that several huge housing estates have been built since AVP opened is of course the very reason why Chiltern built the station in the first place - they knew that Aylesbury was due to expand in the coming years and that's exactly what has happened. Having been a regular visitor to the station I admit that these days it's very quiet although I often see people using the ticket machines there outside of the very limited ticket office opening hours.
 

Lewisham2221

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2005
Messages
2,751
Location
Staffordshire
Flip side is if I take ill at the last minute or the train is cancelled then I have a ticket I can't use.
Much like if you fall ill or the train is cancelled once you've walked away from the booking window with that little piece of orange card in your hand.

Also, you obtain a refund.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,357
Location
Bolton
I'm supportive of a move to a more modern way of retailing rail travel, but this isn't how to do it.
It would appear that way I agree. If the changes as currently proposed go ahead I'd say it's likely to make everyone unhappy; including the people who currently buy things through ticket offices, who work in ticket offices, the trade union committees, passenger groups, local politicians and even some of those who use stations but don't buy tickets through ticket offices.

Effectively this is a complete mess which will make everything worse while saving little money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No I'm arguing it won't be done for insurance reasons but the same insurance reasons won't apply to the concourse at Manchester Piccadilly.
Ah I see thanks.

Can anyone offer clarification please if any additional machines which accept cash have been proposed? Currently I think that Northern have removed all of theirs. I would be surprised if any were coming back but I shouldn't pre-judge?
 

Spamcan81

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2011
Messages
1,265
Location
Bedfordshire
Bit in bold - utter nonsense. If you've ever looked at the documentation around such changes, one section is always impact on those with disabilities.

It's also worth remembering that NOW, before this consultation even started, almost 50% of National Rail stations were unstaffed - not, didn't have a ticket office, completely unstaffed. And London Underground stations don't have ticket offices, nor does the Docklands Light Railway or Tyne & Wear Metro - yet I'm pretty sure people with disabilities use all of those
All that shows is how many stations discriminate against the disadvantaged. We are supposed to be an inclusive society but that is patently not true but then again "you're all right Jack" so it won't bother you.
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,965
Location
Ely
Going back to Huyton for a moment as I started talking about that at the start of the thread - currently it is staffed, via ticket office, at all hours that the station open. It seems that after these changes it will only have staff for a few hours in mornings Monday to Saturday.

It's not exactly an up-market area of the country, and has a number of serious problems with drug gangs, stabbings, even shootings, etc. I wouldn't particularly want to be waiting alone there at night without a staff presence, and I'm a confident middle-aged man. There's no doubt in my mind that de-staffing - and that's what this is in many cases - will affect the confidence of many people using the railway. Quite a number of people may well use alternative travel methods for that reason alone.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,357
Location
Bolton
Bit in bold - utter nonsense. If you've ever looked at the documentation around such changes, one section is always impact on those with disabilities.

It's also worth remembering that NOW, before this consultation even started, almost 50% of National Rail stations were unstaffed - not, didn't have a ticket office, completely unstaffed. And London Underground stations don't have ticket offices, nor does the Docklands Light Railway or Tyne & Wear Metro - yet I'm pretty sure people with disabilities use all of those.
London Underground stations aren't unstaffed, except in out of course situations. Underground ones are never unstaffed because this isn't permitted.

The DLR, Tramlink, Tyne & Wear Metro, Metrolink, Nottingham Express Transit and so on are unstaffed at stations above ground, however, they all offer level boarding.
 

thedbdiboy

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2011
Messages
1,213
Yes there is. The contracts are essentially “cost plus”, ie the DfT covers all their costs (including the provision of management) and then pays them a management fee as well, plus the opportunity to earn performance bonuses

“Separately, TOCs can also earn management and performance fees. These are payable retrospectively on receipt of audited statutory accounts covering the period to which the fees relate. In due course, and subject to conditions, they represent earnings that can be passed on to shareholders” (my italics)

The issue I was tackling was that the fees are not 'profir' in themselves and they are not 'just handed on to shareholders' - they are a fee for the management overheads of running the TOC. I'm not defending the process which all stems from an ideological obsession with assuming that private sector management is better than public sector management. All I am saying is that these fees do not represent any pot of gold that would solve the industry's funding issues, and this is exemplified by the fact OLR and the four TOCs 'temporarily' (!) managed in the public sector do not produce any additional magic dividend for the taxpayer.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Going back to Huyton for a moment as I started talking about that at the start of the thread - currently it is staffed, via ticket office, at all hours that the station open. It seems that after these changes it will only have staff for a few hours in mornings Monday to Saturday.

It's not exactly an up-market area of the country, and has a number of serious problems with drug gangs, stabbings, even shootings, etc. I wouldn't particularly want to be waiting alone there at night without a staff presence, and I'm a confident middle-aged man. There's no doubt in my mind that de-staffing - and that's what this is in many cases - will affect the confidence of many people using the railway. Quite a number of people may well use alternative travel methods for that reason alone.

Would the provision of a security guard be both cheaper and more effective in deterring ASB, though? I get that your typical Merseyside scally has a bit more respect for the presence of authority than the Southern chav, so booking offices help *a bit*, but surely a more bouncer-like character would have more of an effect on this.

Of course I oppose this sort of member of staff being used for checking tickets and the likes, but actually security guarding seems to be exactly what they're for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top