Where will bi-mode locomotives (e.g. classes 99, 93, 88) be used?

[Nottingham59]

• DRS already has 10 Class 88s (317kN tractive effort; 4000kW on the wires; 700kW off).
• ROG has taken delivery of the first class 93, with 30 on order or under option (290kN; 4600kW & 1300kW)
• GBRF has ordered 30 Class 99s (500kN; 6000kW & 1600kW)

and more bimodes may be ordered over the next few years, given the promised operating cost advantages over Class 66's.

The 88's are being used for intermodals on the WCML, like Daventry to Mossend, because their low power off the wires makes them unsuitable for much else. But the 93's and especially the 99's will be much more capable. So my question is what freight flows will these be used on?

I'm asking because it makes a difference to electrification priorities. OHLE is justified on lines carrying more than around 4-6tph. Where will the 93's and 99's end up, and will they be sufficiently frequent to tip the balance in favour of electrification?

 

[ac6000cw]

Just personal opinion, but I think the GBRF 99s will mostly end up substituting for 66's on intermodal flows that they currently diesel haul for substantial distances under OHLE, and acting as a 'green' sales incentive for attracting customers. This frees up 66's for other traffic to expand the business.

As for the ROG 93's, beyond their existing stock movement and thunderbird business, I'm just going to wait and see how much of ROG's corporate promotional talk actually translates into real profitable customer business in competition with the big FOCs.

 

[RobShipway]

My understanding with regards to the class 99 with GBRF, is that they will completely replace the class 66 engines. So, you may see further orders of class 99 engines, if GBRF feel that the first 30 are successful in doing the tasks of the class 66 locos. Then the other 74 class 66 locos, will be replaced at a later date. But as @ac6000cw has said, will be doing intermodal trains.

The class 88 where designed to be used as a mixed traffic locomotive, where it is hauling freight or passenger services. Although, from videos of the class 88 I have seen they have mostly been used on container flow trains between Daventry and Mossend for Tesco. But I believe have also done charter trains.

For the class 93, these are to be used with a new generation of freight wagon that has a maximum speed of 100mph, but are also designed to be able to haul passengers stock, as they have included in their design variable height Dellner coupling, with a three step westcode brake, in addition to the conventional two-pipe air brake. These could be used for moving multiple unit stock, I am presuming but at a faster speed than is currently done with existing locomotives?

 

[Nottingham59]

I think the GBRF 99s will mostly end up substituting for 66's on intermodal flows that they currently diesel haul for substantial distances under OHLE

Sounds sensible: and the flows with the greatest proportion under the wires must be the intermodals from Thames Gateway. So at the very least we need an extended runout of OHLE at Thames Haven junction, to allow the 99s to pan up before they get onto the main line.

Given their increased power over 66s, should the network be planning for more maximum-length (775m) intermodal trains?

For the class 93, these are to be used with a new generation of freight wagon that has a maximum speed of 100mph, but are also designed to be able to haul passengers stock

Yes, that was the plan. But I've heard nothing more of the 100mph intermodal flats; and I don't know what passenger opportunities will arise. Maybe the 93's will just get leased out to FoCs to replace 66's on intermodals too.

 

[Halish Railway]

The Rylstone Quarry to Leeds Hunslet Gypsum workings would be a good testing ground for Class 99 haulage, given the fastest these workings go away from the wires is 20mph.

I think the Airedale line has sufficient power supply to support the Class 99s since it can already support a Class 91 and a rake of Mk4s after the power supply was upgraded in around 2010. Hopefully no horror stories of EMUs packing in after a locomotive stretched the capability of the OHLE after taking power.

 

[MattRat]

There was talk a while back about TPE replacing 68s with 93, but with the current staffing issues, plus the cracks in coaches, it's looking more and more likely they'll just ditch that fleet and either deal with it, or order more 802s.

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes, that was the plan. But I've heard nothing more of the 100mph intermodal flats;

The problem with running at 100mph versus 75mph is that the dynamic track forces increase and the ride degrades, so you need more complex and expensive bogies to offset that, plus more powerful brakes to stop within the signal spacing. The energy usage increases too (especially as container trains aren't exactly very aerodynamic...)

If shorter running times allow you to use the stock more intensively that gives you some payback, but the remaining cost increase has to be covered by charging more to your customers - so you probably need customers willing to pay a premium for speed, basically.

 

[D365]

For the class 93, these are to be used with a new generation of freight wagon that has a maximum speed of 100mph, but are also designed to be able to haul passengers stock, as they have included in their design variable height Dellner coupling, with a three step westcode brake, in addition to the conventional two-pipe air brake. These could be used for moving multiple unit stock, I am presuming but at a faster speed than is currently done with existing locomotives?

Given that we haven't seen yet 90mph container wagons in 'squadron' service, I'm very surprised by your assertion of 100mph wagons and refer you to the comment above.

 

[The Planner]

Unless there is a step change in the way they are planned, getting a 1400t Intermodal up to 100mph and keeping it there is going to be interesting.

 

[Halish Railway]

I’d have thought that the biggest barrier to intermodal trains exceeding 75mph is that yaw dampers would have to used which may not be able to be accommodated within the UK loading gauge, including W12.

 

[ac6000cw]

I’d have thought that the biggest barrier to intermodal trains exceeding 75mph is that yaw dampers would have to used which may not be able to be accommodated within the UK loading gauge, including W12.

But we have yaw dampers on all sorts of passenger rolling stock that fit inside the British loading gauge.

 

[Halish Railway]

But we have yaw dampers on all sorts of passenger rolling stock that fit inside the British loading gauge.

The issue is that if fitting yaw dampers may cause the solebar supporting the container to be raised, which when loaded may cause the container to go out of gauge given that a container is rectangular but a loading gauge generally has a semi-circular profile at the top.

 

[Nottingham59]

The problem with running at 100mph versus 75mph is that the dynamic track forces increase and the ride degrades, so you need more complex and expensive bogies to offset that, plus more powerful brakes to stop within the signal spacing. The energy usage increases too (especially as container trains aren't exactly very aerodynamic...)

If shorter running times allow you to use the stock more intensively that gives you some payback, but the remaining cost increase has to be covered by charging more to your customers - so you probably need customers willing to pay a premium for speed, basically.

I would expect that the benefit will come not through intermodals at 100mph, but bring able to get up to 70mph quickly, and keep to that speed over Shap and Beattock.

Unless there is a step change in the way they are planned, getting a 1400t Intermodal up to 100mph and keeping it there is going to be interesting.

A 6-axle 6000kW Class 99 should be able to haul a 2000T intermodal up a 1% gradient at 30m/s = 65mph. Should make fitting around passenger services on the northen WCML a lot easier, I'd have thought.

 

[RobShipway]

Given that we haven't seen yet 90mph container wagons in 'squadron' service, I'm very surprised by your assertion of 100mph wagons and refer you to the comment above.

Just stating what I have seen quoted elsewhere about the class 93, so it is not my assertion but those of many others, some of whom I believe are actually in the industry of making wagons! Even the Modern Railways in the their article https://www.modernrailways.com/article/exhausting-possibilities say about stepping up intermodal trains, assuming new wagons are eventually built. You also have within these forums the High Speed intermodal flat wagons thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/high-speed-intermodal-flat-wagons.234279/.

In the above thread, it is stated by @HSTEd that Deutsche Bahn have 160Km/H capable container flats, which correct me if I am wrong is about 99mph? So, whilst not 100mph, it is close to be capable of doing 100mph. So I would suspect that the technology is there or at least close to be 100mph wagons on the continent. It is just then how to be able to get that to work within the UK loading gauge.

You also have to ask yourself, if there is no market for 100mph freight trains, then why would the freight companies be leasing the class 88 and 93, if they could only be used at their top speeds with hauling passenger trains?

Yes, you have the situation where you have many freight trains being hauled by diesel engines under OHLE lines, hence the need to reduce CO2 with using the likes of the class 88 & 93. But I suspect there is more to what the markets will require going forward which is why these locomotives are being leased.

 

[The Planner]

I would expect that the benefit will come not through intermodals at 100mph, but bring able to get up to 70mph quickly, and keep to that speed over Shap and Beattock.

A 6-axle 6000kW Class 99 should be able to haul a 2000T intermodal up a 1% gradient at 30m/s = 65mph. Should make fitting around passenger services on the northen WCML a lot easier, I'd have thought.

It would, lets hope the power draw from the OLE allows that (pretty sure it won't). I can't see where you would get sustained 100mph running anywhere though.

 

[Nym]

Has any of north of Preston been converted to Autotransformer feeds yet?
Back when I last looked at it, the AT towers and cables were in, don't know if it's been actually switched over from BT/RR mode to AT mode yet though.

 

[Nottingham59]

It would, lets hope the power draw from the OLE allows that (pretty sure it won't).

Well, let's hope someone is already planning for 6000kW locomotives on the network, because it's sure going to happen.

I can't see where you would get sustained 100mph running anywhere though.

Perhaps on WCML fast lines when HS2 gets to Crewe. I'd expect all fast passenger trains to stop at MKC and at least one other call, so a 125mph passenger service would average around 100mph?

 

[The Planner]

Well, let's hope someone is already planning for 6000kW locomotives on the network, because it's sure going to happen.


Perhaps on WCML fast lines when HS2 gets to Crewe. I'd expect all fast passenger trains to stop at MKC and at least one other call, so a 125mph passenger service would average around 100mph?

They would still get caught going via Weedon, hence why the 350s got uprated to 110 to get fast line paths.

 

[RobShipway]

They would still get caught going via Weedon, hence why the 350s got uprated to 110 to get fast line paths.

Is that also why the class 93 has a top speed of 110mph supposedly?

 

[Sm5]

You also have to ask yourself, if there is no market for 100mph freight trains, then why would the freight companies be leasing the class 88 and 93, if they could only be used at their top speeds with hauling passenger trains?

class 91, APT, 390… railways have never been short of money on higher speed cheap existing infrastructure pipe dreams.

salesman just takes the order and doesnt ask questions.

 

[The Planner]

Is that also why the class 93 has a top speed of 110mph supposedly?

Of no use unless the wagons can do that.

 

[RobShipway]

class 91, APT, 390… railways have never been short of money on higher speed cheap existing infrastructure pipe dreams.

salesman just takes the order and doesnt ask questions.

For the the class 91, 370 and 390 there was actually usage that they where required to achieve. The class 370 unfortunately failed, but I do believe that the class 91 and 390 have been pretty successful in doing what they where designed to do, which is to give faster services on both WCML and ECML. Both the class 91 loco and class 390 where designed to achieve if required 140mph in passenger service. The class 390 with being able to tilt round bends where required, without the need to slow down. Unfortunately, both WCML and ECML have had to be limited to a top speed only in a few sections to do 125mph, even though if memory recalls there was parts of the of ECML where 140mph was previously capable.

Of no use unless the wagons can do that.

The class 93 might not be just used with wagons, as they are suppose to be multi use engines capable always of passengers train traffic. So, if as original planned the class 93 replace the class 68 locos with TPE to haul the Mk5A coaches, then where the line permits they possibly would be able to do the 110mph. However, I do not know of any sections of any routes that TPE covers, where 110mph can be achieved?

 

[Bartsimho]

For the the class 91, 370 and 390 there was actually usage that they where required to achieve. The class 370 unfortunately failed, but I do believe that the class 91 and 390 have been pretty successful in doing what they where designed to do, which is to give faster services on both WCML and ECML. Both the class 91 loco and class 390 where designed to achieve if required 140mph in passenger service. The class 390 with being able to tilt round bends where required, without the need to slow down. Unfortunately, both WCML and ECML have had to be limited to a top speed only in a few sections to do 125mph, even though if memory recalls there was parts of the of ECML where 140mph was previously capable.


The class 93 might not be just used with wagons, as they are suppose to be multi use engines capable always of passengers train traffic. So, if as original planned the class 93 replace the class 68 locos with TPE to haul the Mk5A coaches, then where the line permits they possibly would be able to do the 110mph. However, I do not know of any sections of any routes that TPE covers, where 110mph can be achieved?

I would guess having it in the back pocket if required is a good justification.

Service patterns can change and if they can go faster they could get to the pathed speed faster which would help on inclines as well as freeing capacity as it is closer to other pathed speeds

 

[CAF397]

However, I do not know of any sections of any routes that TPE covers, where 110mph can be achieved?

For the routes the Nova3s currently operate - just York to Colton South Jn on the Up and Down Mains - linespeed is 125mph. Even then it'll be probably just get to 125mph and then it's time to brake.

Of course there are upgrades in the pipeline to Church Fenton, whether that increases linespeed enough on the Mains/Normantons and Leeds lines remains to be seen.

North of York, if they ever run to Saltburn, then theres a bit of 125mph.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, let's hope someone is already planning for 6000kW locomotives on the network, because it's sure going to happen.

Who’s paying?

 

[The Planner]

Who’s paying?

Details! clearly not the loco owners problem that they bought trains without making sure they don't make the towns go dark when they pass by.

 

[Nym]

You can also turn down the power on a loco relatively simply with the modern kit from Vasteras on board.

 

[Halish Railway]

Of course there are upgrades in the pipeline to Church Fenton, whether that increases linespeed enough on the Mains/Normantons and Leeds lines remains to be seen.

It'll be 125mph York to Church Fenton and I believe 110mph most of the way from Church Fenton to Leeds, plus a little bit of 110mph between Dewsbury and Huddersfield.

 

[D365]

Just stating what I have seen quoted elsewhere about the class 93, so it is not my assertion but those of many others, some of whom I believe are actually in the industry of making wagons! Even the Modern Railways in the their article https://www.modernrailways.com/article/exhausting-possibilities say about stepping up intermodal trains, assuming new wagons are eventually built. You also have within these forums the High Speed intermodal flat wagons thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/high-speed-intermodal-flat-wagons.234279/.

In the above thread, it is stated by @HSTEd that Deutsche Bahn have 160Km/H capable container flats, which correct me if I am wrong is about 99mph? So, whilst not 100mph, it is close to be capable of doing 100mph. So I would suspect that the technology is there or at least close to be 100mph wagons on the continent. It is just then how to be able to get that to work within the UK loading gauge.

BiB - if you scroll to the end of the RailUK discussion that you linked, you'll notice a post concerning exactly this. Loading gauge and also aerodynamics are fundamental hurdles.

 

[geoffk]

Just personal opinion, but I think the GBRF 99s will mostly end up substituting for 66's on intermodal flows that they currently diesel haul for substantial distances under OHLE, and acting as a 'green' sales incentive for attracting customers. This frees up 66's for other traffic to expand the business.

As for the ROG 93's, beyond their existing stock movement and thunderbird business, I'm just going to wait and see how much of ROG's corporate promotional talk actually translates into real profitable customer business in competition with the big FOCs.

What about DBS and FL? They currently use class 90 but many of the DBS examples are stored. Perhaps they will go for 93s or 99s if they are successful.