Train station range covered by London Thameslink?

[duncan788]

Hi, I am going to travel back to Brighton after traveling to the West Coast Main Line at London Euston. I was searching for tickets from London Euston to Brighton on trainsplit and found a ticket called "London Thameslink to Brighton" that is priced the same as the ticket from St Pancras to Brighton. It also allows me to take the London Overground without having to walk 10 minutes to nearby St Pancras International. Although I know it's a bit time-consuming, at least it gives me another option. However, I'm not sure if London Euston is part of London Thames. Can someone tell me the actual train station range covered by London Thameslink?Should I buy that ticket to travel with London overground?

 

[Benjwri]

Hi, I am going to travel back to Brighton after traveling to the West Coast Main Line at London Euston. I was searching for tickets from London Euston to Brighton on trainsplit and found a ticket called "London Thameslink to Brighton" that is priced the same as the ticket from St Pancras to Brighton. It also allows me to take the London Overground without having to walk 10 minutes to nearby St Pancras International. Although I know it's a bit time-consuming, at least it gives me another option. However, I'm not sure if London Euston is part of London Thames. Can someone tell me the actual train station range covered by London Thameslink?Should I buy that ticket to travel with London overground?

Is Trainsplit offering a London Thameslink to Brighton ticket with an itinerary from Euston?

This is definitely not valid as a ticket by itself. using the London Thameslink destination to Brighton is valid from:

• Elephant & Castle
• London Bridge
• London Blackfriars
• City Thameslink
• Farringdon
• St Pancras International

 

[duncan788]

Is Trainsplit offering a London Thameslink to Brighton ticket with an itinerary from Euston?

Yes

 

[Benjwri]

Yes

Ah interesting. It shouldn't be doing that, and if you turn up at the station with the ticket alone you will almost certainly be denied travel. That being said, with the itinerary from TrainSplit, it is valid for travel on the specific train which you are taking. You are effectively limiting yourself to an Advance ticket, at least for the leg of your journey to St Pancras, where if questioned you will have to show the itinerary.

Even with the itinerary you might be declined entry to the train, in which case you would have to buy a ticket to St Pancras and claim it back from TrainSplit

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Ah interesting. It shouldn't be doing that, and if you turn up at the station with the ticket alone you will almost certainly be denied travel. That being said, with the itinerary from TrainSplit, it is valid for travel on the specific train which you are taking. You are effectively limiting yourself to an Advance ticket, at least for the leg of your journey to St Pancras, where if questioned you will have to show the itinerary.

Even with the itinerary you might be declined entry to the train, in which case you would have to buy a ticket to St Pancras and claim it back from TrainSplit

It doesn't seem to include St Pancras in the itinerary, though?

That screenshot is routing the OP on the Overground from Euston to Willesden Junction, then Overground to Clapham Junction and then from there to Brighton, which would be Southern not Thameslink?

I suspect, then, that the itinerary is displaying "London Thameslink" in error rather than the routing being in error?

 

[miklcct]

Yes

The itinerary shown is the shortest distance wholly by rail from London Euston to Brighton, without passing any of the other stations in London Thameslink group.

I have read that, for the data purpose, Euston is a group member of London Thameslink, so it is valid in terms of how journey planners implement the route.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Isn't the Off Peak Day Single ticket from London Euston to Brighton (shown upthread in post #3) possibly going to be issued as a London Terminals to Brighton (route Thameslink only) ticket, which is also priced as £21.50, with an itinerary via Willesden Junction? Or would that not be possible, or be wrong, if so issued?

(Although I reckon that for many folk travelling from Euston, for a Thameslink train to Brighton, it might just be quicker to walk from Euston over to St. Pancras).

 

[hkstudent]

I am suspecting another bug related to London terminals to go to the south of London from Euston via Watford DC and North London Line to Clapham Junction.

London terminal is just ill defined in ticketing data, by just adding blocking points like Farringdon and London Underground ban, to enforce the split of north/south, east/west terminals

Defo, it has left unfixed for long, since the takeover of Silverlink by TfL to run as London Overground

 

[miklcct]

It is definitely valid as it can be validated on National Rail Enquiries and sold by Thameslink. Use "via Kensington Olympia" when searching in the journey planner.

 

[MrJeeves]

I believe the conversation about whether London Thameslink can include Euston was had before and it was determined that technically that is the case.

Euston was a valid destination when London Terminals was used because of the line to Bletchley and then to Euston. When London Thameslink was introduced for stations between London and Bedford they had to allow the previous validity into Euston.

 

[Benjwri]

I believe the conversation about whether London Thameslink can include Euston was had before and it was determined that technically that is the case.

It technically is valid to the North, but it is most definitely not valid to the South, and therefore this routing isn't correct.

 

[Adam Williams]

therefore this routing isn't correct

Where, in the electronic data, is this expressed?

 

[MrJeeves]

FWIW, NRE will offer the same ticket with the same itinerary via Willesden Junction.

 

[Benjwri]

Where, in the electronic data, is this expressed?

It isn't I assume, which will be why it is offered, but I can guarantee the gateline at Euston isn't going to accept the ticket.

 

[Adam Williams]

It isn't I assume, which will be why it is offered, but I can guarantee the gateline at Euston isn't going to accept the ticket.

Then they're in the wrong and liable to pay for the passenger's expenses. The ticket was issued by an accredited retailer, it is therefore valid. If frontline staff have a problem with an issued ticket/itinerary combination, they need to be taking a photo of the passenger's ticket and contacting TIS accreditation to report their concerns without penalising the customer.

TIS accreditation will then contact the retailer, who can tell accreditation that the data is garbage, the ticket issuing system worked exactly as designed and the problem is one of the TOC's own making.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Where, in the electronic data, is this expressed?

It isn't, and can't be as the data stands at the moment.

TIS accreditation will then contact the retailer, who can tell accreditation that the data is garbage, the ticket issuing system worked exactly as designed and the problem is one of the TOC's own making.

The ticket should be accepted, certainly, but the fares data has never been enough to retail a ticket properly. There are a number of extra rules to accommodate, including the Farringdon rule or the Elizabeth line Underground fares (and inter-available fares in general), or when Railcard discounts become available in the morning. So while the fare is (becomes) valid, those retailers have a defect to fix. Unfortunately while the support per-incident from RDG is excellent, there is no guide to getting this right in the first place other than a thorough reading of... everything.

 

[Adam Williams]

It isn't, and can't be as the data stands at the moment.


The ticket should be accepted, certainly, but the fares data has never been enough to retail a ticket properly. There are a number of extra rules to accommodate, including the Farringdon rule or the Elizabeth line Underground fares (and inter-available fares in general), or when Railcard discounts become available in the morning. So while the fare is (becomes) valid, those retailers have a defect to fix. Unfortunately while the support per-incident from RDG is excellent, there is no guide to getting this right in the first place other than a thorough reading of... everything.

Unless it's written down in a spec (ideally, with an accreditation test) in a precise way that can be implemented, I really struggle to have any sympathy for the fare setters or operators here. If the fares data isn't flexible enough for whatever crazy rules you want to encode, then you don't get to apply those rules to your ticket types - sorry. Remove the rules or fund improvements to PMS/the fares data and the retailers that use it.

Obviously it's not just the fares data that needs to be considered when retailing a fare. And so, if there's a spec that systems like TrainSplit and/or IPTIS aren't following, I'm very happy (and I'm sure SilverRail are too) to investigate reports of this nature and prioritise engineering staff to look at fixing it. But without either of those things (a spec or fares data that specifies different behaviour), you can't say something isn't valid due to some vaguely defined rule that isn't even specified properly.

The way some of the Railcard discount peak restrictions work is horrendous and effectively based purely on observation of other TIS behaviour. This isn't a proper way to manage a discount scheme, and actual rules should be written down and clearly communicated in a technical specification - like you'd get in any other domain.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It doesn't seem to include St Pancras in the itinerary, though?

That screenshot is routing the OP on the Overground from Euston to Willesden Junction, then Overground to Clapham Junction and then from there to Brighton, which would be Southern not Thameslink?

I suspect, then, that the itinerary is displaying "London Thameslink" in error rather than the routing being in error?

I think you're confusing London (terminals) - Brighton, routed Thameslink only, and London Thameslink [ie Thameslink stations] origin - Brighton. These are both a similar price (ie cheaper than an any train / any terminal London-Brighton ticket) but have different restrictions.

The Thameslink-only tickets allow any London-Brighton route, using any terminal, providing you stick to the right colour trains ... which in effect does limit which route and which London terminals you can use of course! The Thameslink origin to Brighton are valid to/from anywhere between St Pancras and London Bridge (also Elephant & C I think) to Brighton. I've had the latter sometimes showing London Thameslink as the origin, and sometimes St Pancras, but they're the same thing here. These are clearly better value than the former type, at the same price, since there's almost nothing the former ticket will do which these won't, but plenty the latter will do that the former won't. So, you can use Thameslink-Brighton tickets on all the valid routes to/from Brighton (eg via Hove or via Lewes, stopping off at such places if wanted), and you can get any colour of train north from Brighton. The only constraint is that you must head for a Thameslink destination - but that covers most places since you can validly travel to London Bridge via Clapham Junction - Waterloo - Waterloo East. The only significant lack of London terminal access with these tickets is Clapham Junction to Victoria, which is off route. (But of course you couldn't do that with the other type of cheap "Thameslink" ticket either, since those trains don't run to Victoria.)

Getting back to the original query here, and to the posting I'm replying to - then if the ticket is a Thameslink (or St P) origin ticket (not a "route Thameslink" one) there's no problem using it from Clapham Junction to Brighton, whatever colour of train. The exciting thing about this, though, is the fact that Euston seeming to be (erroneously?) linked to St P as a related station allows one of these tickets to be used on an all-NR route from there via the West London line, as shown. It seems barely worth the bother, given the short distance from Euston to St P and the quicker journey you'd get by walking to St P; and you'd surely never get on to the platform at Euston - but it sounds a fun notion...

 

[MrJeeves]

The Thameslink-only tickets allow any London-Brighton route, using any terminal, providing you stick to the right colour trains

Technically it's valid on Gatwick Express, Great Northern and Southern too, but that discussion is for another (or many other) threads!

since you can validly travel to London Bridge via Clapham Junction - Waterloo - Waterloo East

I had a faint feeling that was blocked with a recent easement but I'll have to look for it to be sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

and you'd surely never get on to the platform at Euston

The overzealous Euston mafia would no doubt be in full swing the moment you even think to attempt such a farce!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The overzealous Euston mafia would no doubt be in full swing the moment you even think to attempt such a farce!

Wouldn't you be using a London Overground service from Platform 9 (and thus the automated barriers) to get from London Euston to Willesden Junction? Not saying that the tickets would necessarily open the barriers though.

 

[yorkie]

The itinerary shown is the shortest distance wholly by rail from London Euston to Brighton, without passing any of the other stations in London Thameslink group.

I have read that, for the data purpose, Euston is a group member of London Thameslink, so it is valid in terms of how journey planners implement the route.

This is correct.

However in my opinion, your exploits in particular (and, to probably a lesser extent, those of others) in trying to gain additional valdity to distant terminals is likely to result in the rules being changed back to how they used to be, i.e. the shortest route data would go back to including the LU mileage. The sad thing about this is that it would also remove some totally reasonable routes.

 

[miklcct]

I had a faint feeling that was blocked with a recent easement but I'll have to look for it to be sure.

The recent easement related to London blocks travelling via Charing Cross or Cannon Street. It doesn't block the use of Waterloo East.

I rely on this ticket every weekend to travel between Clapham Junction and Brighton!

 

[CyrusWuff]

The way some of the Railcard discount peak restrictions work is horrendous and effectively based purely on observation of other TIS behaviour. This isn't a proper way to manage a discount scheme, and actual rules should be written down and clearly communicated in a technical specification - like you'd get in any other domain.

Having looked at various bits and pieces on BRFares, I can't help getting the impression there's a lot of "copying other people's homework" going on in the fares database, and that's just the stuff BRFares exposes!

 

[MrJeeves]

The recent easement related to London blocks travelling via Charing Cross or Cannon Street. It doesn't block the use of Waterloo East.

Ah, got you

 

[miklcct]

Ah, got you

I have just contacted Customer Service about this ticket as I intend to use it in combination with a Travelcard season ticket. The response is that it isn't expected to be valid this way via Waterloo - Clapham Junction, however we all know that it's valid using the usual rules of the Routeing Guide, which means unfortunately what we see as a perfectly normal routing (mapped route to London and continue to another terminal) is actually a loophole which is not drawn to the attention of the Pricing Manager.

The ticket can currently be validated via Waterloo East / Clapham Junction on National Rail Enquiries by entering suitable parameters.

The most flexible reasonably-priced ticket from Brighton with access to most terminals is a ticket to West Hampstead Stations routed +Any Permitted, priced by Thameslink with cheap Super Off-Peak Day Return available, which indisputely allows the use of all southern terminals and the whole of Thameslink core, and it should also allow Euston, Moorgate and Liverpool Street as well as there is a mapped route from these terminals to West Hampstead (Overground).

 

[Hadders]

I have just contacted Customer Service about this ticket as I intend to use it in combination with a Travelcard season ticket. The response is that it isn't expected to be valid this way via Waterloo - Clapham Junction, however we all know that it's valid using the usual rules of the Routeing Guide, which means unfortunately what we see as a perfectly normal routing (mapped route to London and continue to another terminal) is actually a loophole which is not drawn to the attention of the Pricing Manager.

The ticket can currently be validated via Waterloo East / Clapham Junction on National Rail Enquiries by entering suitable parameters.

The most flexible reasonably-priced ticket from Brighton with access to most terminals is a ticket to West Hampstead Stations routed +Any Permitted, priced by Thameslink with cheap Super Off-Peak Day Return available, which indisputely allows the use of all southern terminals and the whole of Thameslink core, and it should also allow Euston, Moorgate and Liverpool Street as well as there is a mapped route from these terminals to West Hampstead (Overground).

Bringing this ticket to the attention of the train company will almost certainly result restrictions from Waterloo East introduced.

 

[Adam Williams]

Bringing this ticket to the attention of the train company will almost certainly result restrictions from Waterloo East introduced.

Yes, and I think when it happens the outcome will have been entirely foreseeable to most here!

 

[JV_hunter]

701118 (Circuitous Route) Customer travelling with tickets priced on route (00208) NOT VALID ON UNDERGROUND are not permitted to travel from London Bridge, Elephant & Castle, London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and London St Pancras Intl, to stations on the Brighton Mainline between East Croydon and Brighton via London Waterloo, Clapham Junction, London Victoria, London Charing Cross, Waterloo East and London Cannon Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions​

This seems to be intended to prevent people from using "not Underground" tickets from London towards Brighton at London terminals Thameslink do not serve.

Ah well. It was great whilst it lasted!

 

[MrJeeves]

Ah well. It was great whilst it lasted!

Shame someone chose to make GTR so blindly aware of the issue!

 

[Haywain]

Shame someone chose to make GTR so blindly aware of the issue!

Well, you know who to blame!