ASLEF non-contractual overtime bans -various dates and TOCs

[infobleep]

Yes No

Only takes a bit of disruption such as a unit failure and extra shunts become required. These are not diagrammed anywhere so no driver has to contractually do them and there is very little slack so favours are usually asked. These favours will be politely declined, which then means services have to be cancelled to get a driver to clear the line.

Is anyone aware of a train blocking the line yet due to staff not wanting to work overtime?

Yes. This is why it is often far more effective as it’s so very hard to pre-judge.

Why don't they just do overtime bans, not strikes?

So do I, which rather makes taking further action until that time pointless, as there will be just loss of pay for no progress until that date

Well if they accept the changes then how easily can they be undone when Labour gets into power?

For example, they want to be able to decide what times of the day a driver works when they are given a roster, rather than them having certainly in advance that during x period they will be doing nights and y period days.

It would mean they can't plan for a social life as they would never know what hours of the day they would be working until they were given a roster.

That doesn't seem fair to me.

Surely ASLEF should be taking the necessary measures to get this resolved or to bring the RDG/ govt to the table. That’s the whole point of strike action. An overtime ban isn’t and won’t have the desired effect and I’m pretty sure the drivers (and the TOCS) don’t care much about this “industrial actThe” the railway will operate to a near-normal service…

If they are operating a near normal service, why is there a 40-minute gap between Redhill and Gatwick Aiport this week, most hours? That isn't normal.

 

[dk1]

Why don't they just do overtime bands, not strikes?

You tell me. I just follow orders.

 

[Horizon22]

Is anyone aware of a train blocking the line yet due to staff not wanting to work overtime?

Why would it? There are some specific rules regarding leaving trains on live running lines. Not to say this couldn't theoretically happen, but during service disruption is a slightly different kettle of fish than not doing RDW or additional hours to cover another part of a diagram.

 

[philosopher]

I agree that it seems very very unlikely that anything happens (other than the current level of strikes) for the next 18 months until the election and potentially beyond.

Simple reason is that there is no pain to cause one / both sides to do something to seek a resolution - Government don't really care as public transport is not a priority and for most voters it just doesn't matter while the economy has adjusted to strikes. The Unions are also clearly not really suffering from this action (e.g. staff able to pick up extra shifts or whatever) so there is just nothing to produce progress.

While on the surface the strikes seem to not be having much of an impact, I am not sure this is the case in reality. Essentially for those who rely on railways for some of their travel, they are forced to modify their behaviour in some way which will impact what they spend their money on.

For example if someone tries to work around the strikes by using expensive taxis or booking hotel accommodation so they can travel a day before or after the strike, then it means they are spending money on something they would rather not. Some business therefore will benefit from this industrial dispute, but others are very likely losing out. I suspect hospitality and leisure in particular has suffered financially from this industrial action, which comes up top of a very difficult couple of years due to Covid.

 

[43066]

Well if they accept the changes then how easily can they be undone when Labour gets into power?

For example, they want to be able to decide what times of the day a driver works when they are given a roster, rather than them having certainly in ad mace that during x period they will.be doing nights.

I can’t make head nor tail of the above, however:

It would mean they can't plan for a social life as they would never know what hours of the day they would be working until they were given a roster.

That doesn't seem fair to me.

You’ve summed up the dispute pretty effectively here. If these changes come through, I’ll be leaving the grade forthwith, and most probably the industry.

Nobody should underestimate the strength of feeling within the driver grade. Plenty enough to see this government out, for sure.

On the bright side, if it runs until the next election, we’re already more than half way through!

 

[JonathanH]

If they are operating a near normal service, why is their a 40 minute gap between Redhill and Gatwick Aiport this week, most hours? That isn't normal.

GTR, and in particular Thameslink, are an exception, apparently due to the complexity of the rosters, such that they need to reduce and simply the service.

The level of disruption on Thameslink this week exceeds that seen elsewhere.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GTR, and in particular Thameslink, are an exception, apparently due to the complexity of the rosters, such that they need to reduce and simply the service.

The level of disruption on Thameslink this week exceeds that seen elsewhere.

SWR also has a hugely reduced timetable this week.

 

[Evolution]

If these changes come through, I’ll be leaving the grade forthwith, and most probably the industry.

That makes two of us and I think there would be plenty more who would. Not knowing what you're doing week to week, potential DOO and depot crosscover, for what is now a mediocre wage, I think I'll hand the keys back!

Nobody should underestimate the strength of feeling within the driver grade. Plenty enough to see this government out, for sure.

On the bright side, if it runs until the next election, we’re already more than half way through!

We just need to see out these incompetent morons for another 18 months maximum. It's all downhill from here!

 

[Jan Mayen]

That makes two of us and I think there would plenty more who would. Not knowing what you're doing week to week, potential DOO and depot crosscover, for what is now a mediocre wage, I think I'll hand the keys back!

I don't think I've every heard a driver's salary being described as 'mediocore' before. My understanding is its considerably more than the national average. Mind you, I can understand leaving due to the proposed changes to the T & C's.

 

[dctraindriver]

That makes two of us and I think there would plenty more who would. Not knowing what you're doing week to week, potential DOO and depot crosscover, for what is now a mediocre wage, I think I'll hand the keys back!

We just need to see out these incompetent morons for another 18 months maximum. It's all downhill from here!

Mediocre? It’s still a lot more than others earn. The shifts and constraints sometimes during the course of the year are why we earn more than average. And if you hand your keys back they’ll be plenty that come knocking for your job, even if it does take them 18 months from recruitment to qualified.

It’s still a decent job, let’s not forget that even with the uncertainty.

 

[Bantamzen]

That makes two of us and I think there would plenty more who would. Not knowing what you're doing week to week, potential DOO and depot crosscover, for what is now a mediocre wage, I think I'll hand the keys back!

Hang on, mediocre? The industry average for drivers is more than double that of the national average wage!

 

[Smidster]

While on the surface the strikes seem to not be having much of an impact, I am not sure this is the case in reality. Essentially for those who rely on railways for some of their travel, they are forced to modify their behaviour in some way which will impact what they spend their money on.

For example if someone tries to work around the strikes by using expensive taxis or booking hotel accommodation so they can travel a day before or after the strike, then it means they are spending money on something they would rather not. Some business therefore will benefit from this industrial dispute, but others are very likely losing out. I suspect hospitality and leisure in particular has suffered financially from this industrial action, which comes up top of a very difficult couple of years due to Covid.

Absolutely agree that passengers and other businesses are collateral damage and the damage it is doing to individuals (including myself) is immense (and I know how I feel about the parties involved)

Unfortunately however our misery doesn't figure in the calculation.

 

[Hadders]

GTR, and in particular Thameslink, are an exception, apparently due to the complexity of the rosters, such that they need to reduce and simply the service.

The level of disruption on Thameslink this week exceeds that seen elsewhere.

Agreed. Halfn the Thameslink service between Stevenage and London has been removed.

 

[irish_rail]

I can’t make head nor tail of the above, however:



You’ve summed up the dispute pretty effectively here. If these changes come through, I’ll be leaving the grade forthwith, and most probably the industry.

Nobody should underestimate the strength of feeling within the driver grade. Plenty enough to see this government out, for sure.

On the bright side, if it runs until the next election, we’re already more than half way through!

Exactly. This is why it is so frustrating when you hear comments like "just get back to work". The government are trying to make massive changes to our PERSONAL lives with the daft conditions changes they want. Some things are more valuable than money and I suspect lots of drivers, like you would hand in their key where some of these changes imposed. Support for the action amongst drivers is still incredibly strong, and until the government stop playing silly beggars then it will just go on and on.

 

[Jan Mayen]

There was a joke doing the rounds many years ago, where a London Underground driver was asked if it was true they got £52000 a year and six weeks leave. They answered no, it's £50,000 a year and eight weeks leave. Two of which are unpaid.
The point of the joke is that if you are paid a lot you can afford to lose a bit.
I imagine there are plenty (of which I'm one) who are dreading the time when it becomes an all out strike, then I can't get into work and will be taking unpaid leave.

 

[SWT_USER]

SWR also has a hugely reduced timetable this week.

SWR has a hugely reduced timetable every week since the pandemic. The service has basically been cut in half on the Hounslow loop.

Have to say the Windsor side is looking ok this week despite the overtime ban.

 

[43066]

Hang on, mediocre? The industry average for drivers is more than double that of the national average wage!

I should hope we were paid a lot more than the average given that we do a far more responsible and demanding job than the average, with crazy shifts. Having previously earned more sitting on my backside in an office, I know which job is more deserving of the salary.

Where I am we should be on around £10-15k more basic, based on what some of our colleagues are earning.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Have you got your dates confused?

Yes almost certainly. It all blends in to one after a while.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

I too will be leaving if the T&C changes come in. I can earn just as much elsewhere whilst still knowing what my days off are going to be.

 

[dk1]

Yes almost certainly. It all blends in to one after a while.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

I too will be leaving if the T&C changes come in. I can earn just as much elsewhere whilst still knowing what my days off are going to be.

I'm in the lucky position that I can take early retirement whenever I wish so will just ride this this out for now,.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

I can't see anything much changing.

 

[12LDA28C]

which is why all operators should reset their timetables to deliver within known establishments and not rely upon o/t or RDW. So be it if the timetables become erratic intervals during the day at least the maximum service thats can be achieved will be delivered unlike GTR where they have a blanket 50% or more cut across the board irrespective of depot establishment.

Why? It suits the TOCs to rely on overtime and RDW when required, as it always has done. Of course there is an argument for employing sufficient drivers to run the service, not to reduce the service to such an extent that you don't need to recruit to bring depots up to full establishment.

 

[infobleep]

Why would it? There are some specific rules regarding leaving trains on live running lines. Not to say this couldn't theoretically happen, but during service disruption is a slightly different kettle of fish than not doing RDW or additional hours to cover another part of a diagram.

I'm sure someone on here made an earlier comments about trains being left at stations, hence my question.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I'm sure someone on here made an earlier comments about trains being left at stations, hence my question.

Trains left in stations, yes. But never on a running line - nobody abandons a train in this situation

 

[infobleep]

I can’t make head nor tail of the above, however:



You’ve summed up the dispute pretty effectively here. If these changes come through, I’ll be leaving the grade forthwith, and most probably the industry.

Nobody should underestimate the strength of feeling within the driver grade. Plenty enough to see this government out, for sure.

On the bright side, if it runs until the next election, we’re already more than half way through!

My apologies. It should have read 'advance' as in advance notice. I have corrected it.

I know someone who is a driver for a rail company and that is only how I know about this bit.

This particular T&C change never seems to be openly discussed much on the radio or TV and that includes by ASLEF themselves. They are interviewed enough and should be explaining it more. Shift the focus away from pay and onto T&Cs.

Maybe they have mentioned it and I missed it.

 

[12LDA28C]

I too will be leaving if the T&C changes come in. I can earn just as much elsewhere whilst still knowing what my days off are going to be.

Interesting. A driver who leaves the industry would generally not be able to earn anything like a comparable salary unless they were in quite a senior management role in another industry, most drivers are fully aware of that and would certainly think twice about jacking their job in, changes to Ts & Cs or not.

 

[Evolution]

Hang on, mediocre? The industry average for drivers is more than double that of the national average wage!

Yes mediocre, considering it's worth about 25% less than it was 4 years ago. The drivers salary is also about half that of a captain at a decent airline. Why is the benchmark always the average salary?
In London especially, 50-60k is by no means a great salary, it's mediocre as I said.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Mediocre? It’s still a lot more than others earn. The shifts and constraints sometimes during the course of the year are why we earn more than average. And if you hand your keys back they’ll be plenty that come knocking for your job, even if it does take them 18 months from recruitment to qualified.

It’s still a decent job, let’s not forget that even with the uncertainty.

It is indeed but there are far easier jobs with less responsibility that pay substantially more and have less constraints, that was my point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Interesting. A driver who leaves the industry would generally not be able to earn anything like a comparable salary unless they were in quite a senior management role in another industry, most drivers are fully aware of that and would certainly think twice about jacking their job in, changes to Ts & Cs or not.

You don't need to be in senior management at all, theres plenty of jobs that pay more. I have friends who are trades people who earn double what I do! As well as people who work in finance who earn well over six figures.

 

[londonbridge]

How are late evening trains towards Croydon from Victoria or London Bridge looking? Going to Hyde Park for the Billy and Bruce BST shows Friday/Saturday.

 

[12LDA28C]

You don't need to be in senior management at all, theres plenty of jobs that pay more. I have friends who are trades people who earn double what I do! As well as people who work in finance who earn well over six figures.

Can you walk straight into one of these finance jobs and earn £100k plus with no training?

 

[JonathanH]

How are late evening trains towards Croydon from Victoria or London Bridge looking? Going to Hyde Park for the Billy and Bruce BST shows Friday/Saturday.

They still run, with pretty much the usual finish times. Just a reduction in the number of them through the day.

 

[dctraindriver]

Yes mediocre, considering it's worth about 25% less than it was 4 years ago. The drivers salary is also about half that of a captain at a decent airline. Why is the benchmark always the average salary?
In London especially, 50-60k is by no means a great salary, it's mediocre as I said.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==


It is indeed but there are far easier jobs with less responsibility that pay substantially more and have less constraints, that was my point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==


You don't need to be in senior management at all, theres plenty of jobs that pay more. I have friends who are trades people who earn double what I do! As well as people who work in finance who earn well over six figures.

On the flip side many of my trades mates earn the same or less.

I also know people who work in other professions with much more responsibility (police as an example) who earn a lot less.

Even with my degree all those years ago I’d struggle to retrain or earn what I’m earning now.

I certainly understand why you’re disillusioned if you’re working for the many TOCs who’s seen their wage drop after 4 years of no pay rise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Interesting. A driver who leaves the industry would generally not be able to earn anything like a comparable salary unless they were in quite a senior management role in another industry, most drivers are fully aware of that and would certainly think twice about jacking their job in, changes to Ts & Cs or not.

I agree. Many would struggle including myself. If I was 20 years maybe I’d be inclined to retrain but not now.

 

[Evolution]

Can you walk straight into one of these finance jobs and earn £100k plus with no training?

Maybe not from day one, but over a couple of years, yes. So no different to a typical training course for a driver.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

On the flip side many of my trades mates earn the same or less.

I also know people who work in other professions with much more responsibility (police as an example) who earn a lot less.

Even with my degree all those years ago I’d struggle to retrain or earn what I’m earning now.

I certainly understand why you’re disillusioned if you’re working for the many TOCs who’s seen their wage drop after 4 years of no pay rise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==


I agree. Many would struggle including myself. If I was 20 years maybe I’d be inclined to retrain but not now.

Fair enough, I’m not saying the driver role pays peanuts, it clearly doesn’t but some of us earned quite a bit more prior to joining the role so could quite easily make the jump back to those roles.

There’s plenty of good roles outside the railway that pay well and are less restrictive where you know your days off and aren’t forced to take annual leave when the company decides.

Largely, I enjoy the role and hope to continue doing it.