Avanti West Coast Rolling Stock Updates

[py_megapixel]

Hi, first post so apologies if this is a stupid newbie question...I have searched, I promise!

Looking at RTT, the 08:56 Avanti service ex-BHM to EUS is showing as "Pathed as Class 80x on electric" on Sunday 2 July. Normally it's either 390 EMU or as a Diesel Multiple Unit / Diesel Locomotive, i.e. a Voyager. This isn't going to be a new Hitachi train, is it? The seating plan loaded in the App appears to show an 11 car Pendolino. Is this some way of indicating perhaps it's an unrefurbished 11 car Pendolino or something, is it a typo, or am I missing something, if so, what? Did I miss the memo that Avanti now has their new Hitachi trains in service?

"Pathed as 80x" simply means that the timings for that journey have been decided based on how an 80x unit would be expected to perform. It's a feature of the timetable, and it will say that regardless of what rolling stock is actually running on the service (or even if the service is cancelled altogether).

Look at this service for example: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67327/2023-06-27/detailed/
It says "Pathed as class 397 EMU", and the specific unit running the service is indeed a 397 (397006).

But now look at the next service on this route, 2 hours later: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67329/2023-06-27/detailed
It also says "Pathed as class 397 EMU", but the unit that actually ran that service today is an 802.

 

[StealthRailfan]

Got it, thanks. I hadn’t appreciated fully what the ‘pathed as’ meant. I appreciated the new trains were slower but hadn’t thought through implications of that for timetabling.

Yes, ‘the app’ = Avanti’s app. I had a discount code to redeem.

Thank you.

 

[Railperf]

Hi, first post so apologies if this is a stupid newbie question...I have searched, I promise!

Looking at RTT, the 08:56 Avanti service ex-BHM to EUS is showing as "Pathed as Class 80x on electric" on Sunday 2 July. Normally it's either 390 EMU or as a Diesel Multiple Unit / Diesel Locomotive, i.e. a Voyager. This isn't going to be a new Hitachi train, is it? The seating plan loaded in the App appears to show an 11 car Pendolino. Is this some way of indicating perhaps it's an unrefurbished 11 car Pendolino or something, is it a typo, or am I missing something, if so, what? Did I miss the memo that Avanti now has their new Hitachi trains in service?

View attachment 138200

That is a service which looks like they eventually plan to use a Hitachi 80x on - which needs slightly slower timings as it will not be as fast as a 221/390.
Most likely to be run using a 390 for now and so this train will either tend to run early en route or be driven slightly slower to avoid catching up other services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==

"Pathed as 80x" simply means that the timings for that journey have been decided based on how an 80x unit would be expected to perform. It's a feature of the timetable, and it will say that regardless of what rolling stock is actually running on the service (or even if the service is cancelled altogether).

Look at this service for example: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67327/2023-06-27/detailed/
It says "Pathed as class 397 EMU", and the specific unit running the service is indeed a 397 (397006).

But now look at the next service on this route, 2 hours later: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67329/2023-06-27/detailed
It also says "Pathed as class 397 EMU", but the unit that actually ran that service today is an 802.

CLass 397 and 80x are both limited to 110mph and non tilt - with similar performance characteristics - so either train can be used on services using those timings. Not sure why though. Is there a shortage of 397's?

 

[AJDesiro]

That is a service which looks like they eventually plan to use a Hitachi 80x on - which needs slightly slower timings as it will not be as fast as a 221/390.
Most likely to be run using a 390 for now and so this train will either tend to run early en route or be driven slightly slower to avoid catching up other services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==


CLass 397 and 80x are both limited to 110mph and non tilt - with similar performance characteristics - so either train can be used on services using those timings. Not sure why though. Is there a shortage of 397's?

One thing to be noted is the addition of MU speed profiles around the west coast, though I realise this isn’t the case in TPE land. Rugby-Coventry is now 125 MU, and Wolverhampton-Stafford has been 125MU for a while, according to the latest sectional appendix.

 

[jagardner1984]

As a general direction - it does seem strange having a uniformly tilting High Speed fleet was seen as essential for using the capacity of the otherwise full WCML to the maximum 20 years ago - we are now making the simultaneous argument that we have no capacity and HS2 is needed to provide it, and yet procuring trains which do not tilt and can therefore not make use of the speed differential, and thus decreasing capacity.

Perhaps I am missing something ?

 

[Danfilm007]

As a general direction - it does seem strange having a uniformly tilting High Speed fleet was seen as essential for using the capacity of the otherwise full WCML to the maximum 20 years ago - we are now making the simultaneous argument that we have no capacity and HS2 is needed to provide it, and yet procuring trains which do not tilt and can therefore not make use of the speed differential, and thus decreasing capacity.

Perhaps I am missing something ?

Sadly I suspect the effort to procure modern-spec tilting stock (They refused the derogation to build more 390s 5-10 years ago under safety grounds) would be a bit over budget when the DfT's favourite train is still easily ordered...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==

One thing to be noted is the addition of MU speed profiles around the west coast, though I realise this isn’t the case in TPE land. Rugby-Coventry is now 125 MU, and Wolverhampton-Stafford has been 125MU for a while, according to the latest sectional appendix.

Does this then mean Voyager timings could be mildly improved?

 

[Railperf]

Sadly I suspect the effort to procure modern-spec tilting stock (They refused the derogation to build more 390s 5-10 years ago under safety grounds) would be a bit over budget when the DfT's favourite train is still easily ordered...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==


Does this then mean Voyager timings could be mildly improved?

Voyager timings are only likely to get slower. Creating 125 MU speeds on straighter bits of track where 125 EPS previously existed won't change anythingas Voyagers would already have been doing 125 on those stretches. I suspect the revised MU profiles on the twisty bits won't come into force until sectional running times for 221 operated services are lengthened - because the 221's will struggle to keep time running to a slower MU profile.

Are current WCML 80x timings based on 110 mph running? If so i imagine the revised 125MU profile has to come in to coincide with a enough 80x sets being able to run those services at a newer 80x timing load at 125mph. Why slow down the bulk of Chester and Holyhead services by up to 10 minutes while the bulk of trains are being operated by 221's?

 

[Bald Rick]

Are current WCML 80x timings based on 110 mph running?

AIUI they are based on the new MU speed profile

If so i imagine the revised 125MU profile has to come in to coincide with a enough 80x sets being able to run those services at a newer 80x timing load at 125mph.

The commissioning of the new profile has to be done before the 80x can enter service, otherwise the 80x will run late.

 

[Railperf]

AIUI they are based on the new MU speed profile



The commissioning of the new profile has to be done before the 80x can enter service, otherwise the 80x will run late.

When are Euston to Chester and Holyhead timings likely to be revised to an 80x profile. Currently still Voyager timings.
December?
.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are current WCML 80x timings based on 110 mph running? If so i imagine the revised 125MU profile has to come in to coincide with a enough 80x sets being able to run those services at a newer 80x timing load at 125mph. Why slow down the bulk of Chester and Holyhead services by up to 10 minutes while the bulk of trains are being operated by 221's?

Never mind 22x, the Liverpools are noticeably slow, they seem mostly to run at 110.

 

[Railperf]

Never mind 22x, the Liverpools are noticeably slow, they seem mostly to run at 110.

Yes, the Liverpool services are running to slower non tilt timings now - that's progress!!!

But where drivers have a clear run - the 390s are still running to the EPS profile and can run early resulting in longer dwell times to ensure RT departure.

 

[Bald Rick]

When are Euston to Chester and Holyhead timings likely to be revised to an 80x profile. Currently still Voyager timings.
December?
.

December I think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the Liverpool services are running to slower non tilt timings now - that's progress!!!

But where drivers have a clear run - the 390s are still running to the EPS profile and can run early resulting in longer dwell times to ensure RT departure.

Seems to depend on the driver. I've used it twice since the change and both times it's just run at 110 (yes, I used GPS to see as I thought it was slow). I can see sense in this as it'll save energy.

 

[Railperf]

Seems to depend on the driver. I've used it twice since the change and both times it's just run at 110 (yes, I used GPS to see as I thought it was slow). I can see sense in this as it'll save energy.

Any particular service? On my last Liverpool run there were several TSR's, so the driver had good reason to run at the full 125mph in many places...but there were also a few locations where slower than usual speeds recorded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any particular service? On my last Liverpool run there were several TSR's, so the driver had good reason to run at the full 125mph in many places...but there were also a few locations where slower than usual speeds recorded.

Not that I recall. I just recall the Trent Valley section mostly being at or around 110.

 

[DaveyJones]

137 came out last Friday (16th?)

121 is out, 152 went in on Friday

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2023 ==

117, 134 and 135 Remain

 

[Jacob Porrett]

When do the 390/0 start?

 

[Liam L]

When do the 390/0 start?

After the 11 cars are done.

 

[Some guy]

When do the 390/0 start?

About 6 weeks time. The 9 cars are will be done much faster they’re aiming to get them done in 7 days

 

[Liam L]

About 6 weeks time. The 9 cars are will be done much faster they’re aiming to get them done in 7 days

I presume the process is quicker because they isn't a need to convert on FC carriage into standard?

 

[The_Train]

I presume the process is quicker because they isn't a need to convert on FC carriage into standard?

And because there are 2 less coaches

 

[1nvicible]

About 6 weeks time. The 9 cars are will be done much faster they’re aiming to get them done in 7 days

I'm not so sure, the shop update is a big piece of work everything pretty much is brand new. The HVAC comes out so they can drop the new furniture in.

 

[DaveyJones]

152 has left Widnes, 134 has gone in - (390135, 390117 are the remaining 11 cars)

 

[Vanmanyo]

For anyone interested 805001 has been out and about on testing again (not sure if there is a separate thread for the 805s).

Spoke to Hitachi staff who are receiving the first 7 car unit this week and hence 12 car testing will begin by the end of the month apparently.

Speaking to Avanti staff they believe 805s will be in service this year (already public knowledge) but not 100% confident.

If I'm guessing I would say October onwards perhaps we could see the first one enter service.

I attached the images I took below - I will upload clips of the unit departing on my YouTube second channel later (don't want to plug it but I think it's easy enough to find!)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

(not sure if there is a separate thread for the 805s).

There is https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ts-805-807s-hitachi-at300-sets.214752/page-29 which is for both the 805s and 807s

 

[DaveyJones]

390134 is out, 390117 is in. Only 390135 to go until all 11 cars are done

 

[MalaiseForever]

Of course I have managed to find the only non refurbished 11 car Pendolino today!

 

[1nvicible]

Depends if its 9 or 11 car. All but 2 of the 11 cars are refurbished. 9 cars start at the end of August

 

[MalaiseForever]

Depends if its 9 or 11 car. All but 2 of the 11 cars are refurbished. 9 cars start at the end of August

Yes, missed 11 car from my post. Will edit.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Went on 136 last week, I thought the refurb was quite impressive. It looked almost brand new inside but the seats seem a bit firmer than the old Virgin style ones.