What if the Channel Tunnel opened in 1980?

[Class08Shunter]

If the Channel Tunnel had not been abandoned in the 70s and finished in 1980, would BR, SNCF and SNCB have formed Eurostar or would things be different?

 

[StephenHunter]

Remember there was no HS1 or LGV Nord at this time, so travel time would have been slower either side of the tunnel - which itself has a 160km/h limit.

I imagine that the Night Ferry would have not been axed and instead diverted through the tunnel, almost certainly with a somewhat shortened runtime. New stock would have been ordered as the Type Fs were getting rather old - and their stoves would have been a safety hazard.

 

[GS250]

The cranks would have hoped for pairs of 73s running with mk2/3 stock through to France. More likely there would have been an anglo French built dual voltage UK gauge TGV type train. You never know....this design may have ended up on the East or West Coast ML.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Perhaps it is an urban myth, but were not the SNCF CC40100 and SNCB Type 18 built to the British loading gauge to work TEE services through to London (Victoria?) on the assumption that the British would not be entertaining the idea of running international express services off the third rail juice, and that Kent would be OLE'd?

 

[Irascible]

That does bring up a point - I can very vaguely remember that chunnel attempt, but I've never come across anything talking about how it was going to be linked to ... well, it'd be London, I guess, but the rest of the network. Was there any talk of a new line at all?

 

[Ianigsy]

EM2-hauled London-Amsterdam expresses…..

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The cranks would have hoped for pairs of 73s running with mk2/3 stock through to France. More likely there would have been an anglo French built dual voltage UK gauge TGV type train. You never know....this design may have ended up on the East or West Coast ML.

Although I haven't been able to find it with any Google searching, I do recall seeing a BR publicity document or poster from the 1980s for the Channel Tunnel ( when the idea was being revived again - and ultimately got built this time round ) which included an artist's impression of a train in the tunnel.

That train was unmistakably an SR style EPB...

 

[etr221]

There were certainly plans for an improved route across Kent - can't raecall how much of it was new - to a new terminal at White City. And, IIRC, it was the the cost of those which sunk the whole Channel Tunnel project of that era. I'm sure I've come across documents describing wht was proposed.

I am sure that some sort of 'Eurostar' equivalent would have come about - but that, in those pre TGV days, I suspect it would have been far more 'classic' train based (both day and night)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Speedlink "mixed" freight running through from say Willesden to various continental yards. All losing stacks of money of course.

 

[Ken H]

Although I haven't been able to find it with any Google searching, I do recall seeing a BR publicity document or poster from the 1980s for the Channel Tunnel ( when the idea was being revived again - and ultimately got built this time round ) which included an artist's impression of a train in the tunnel.

That train was unmistakably an SR style EPB...

I think the original plan was just the undersea tunnel. When high speed line through kent the NIMBYs went off on one, and the treasury got frightened by the new costs
I suspect thats why HS1 was some time after the tunnel, to spread the cost. How they pacified Kent i cant remember.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I think the plan was to create a new terminal at Westenhanger and start back from there all the day and night long-distance services that originated from Calais, Boulogne and Oostende. Passengers from London would have to change; only new British loading-gauge stock would be provided for through services to Paris and Brussels.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Would BR, SNCF and SNCB have ran their own trains through the tunnel?

 

[Class08Shunter]

Remember there was no HS1 or LGV Nord at this time, so travel time would have been slower either side of the tunnel - which itself has a 160km/h limit.

I imagine that the Night Ferry would have not been axed and instead diverted through the tunnel, almost certainly with a somewhat shortened runtime. New stock would have been ordered as the Type Fs were getting rather old - and their stoves would have been a safety hazard.

The Night Ferry would probably be renamed as it wouldn't go on a ferry after the 'chunnel' was opened

 

[nlogax]

More likely there would have been an anglo French built dual voltage UK gauge TGV type train. You never know....this design may have ended up on the East or West Coast ML.

Or some iteration of the APT?

 

[contrex]

Perhaps it is an urban myth, but were not the SNCF CC40100 and SNCB Type 18 built to the British loading gauge to work TEE services through to London (Victoria?) on the assumption that the British would not be entertaining the idea of running international express services off the third rail juice, and that Kent would be OLE'd?

In pictures of the CC 40100 class hauling various European coaches the loco is not noticeably dwarfed by the coaches as you might expect if that were true. Similarly for the SNCB Alsthom Class 18s derived from them.

 

[GS250]

Or some iteration of the APT?

With additional French money and expertise yes this could have been a possibility. Development would have been quicker and it may have been ready by 1980. Not sure if they would have suffered the centre power cars though? They certainly wouldn't have accepted mk3s with plug doors on the continent.

 

[Irascible]

With additional French money and expertise yes this could have been a possibility. Development would have been quicker and it may have been ready by 1980. Not sure if they would have suffered the centre power cars though? They certainly wouldn't have accepted mk3s with plug doors on the continent.

I don't think the centre power cars were ever intended for production versions - a TGV with APT's tilt would hae been an interesting idea.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That does bring up a point - I can very vaguely remember that chunnel attempt, but I've never come across anything talking about how it was going to be linked to ... well, it'd be London, I guess, but the rest of the network. Was there any talk of a new line at all?

It was the talk of a new line to London which sank the 1970s tunnel scheme.
BR (SR) was opposed to the tunnel as there were no paths into London other than for the regular boat trains, and their ferry business would suffer.
So BR HQ was planning a new line (in tunnel) between Tonbridge and Croydon, and that spooked the Labour government to scrap the whole idea.
Remember it was then a government scheme, competing with Concorde and the third London airport for funds, and Concorde won (because it legally couldn't be cancelled).
The UK was also in a deep recession with high inflation (sound familiar?).

There was no talk of multi-system trains, as the TGV was still on the drawing board, so the plan was loco-hauled trains with changes en route.
Routes from Calais to Paris were also very indirect so the journey would have been slow on both sides of the channel.
The plan was not thought through at all.
Ten years later, and with the channel tunnel under private sponsorship, things were different.
Through trains without technical stops became possible, and France committed to build LGV Nord to Calais.
We committed to fund Waterloo International, North Pole depot, 3rd rail tunnel route upgrades and our share of the Eurostar train fleet.
HS1, and St Pancras on 25kV AC, came later.

 

[Irascible]

The UK was also in a deep recession with high inflation (sound familiar?).

While I'm not old enough to remember the funding for various projects, I can absolutely remember becoming politically aware in the late 70s - what a time be a kid. 10 years later was the middle of another artificial boom & we were about to head into the worst recession we'd ever had, so yeah, these things come and go...

I think the whole project did better for waiting out another decade+ of technology development anyway.

 

[chris7153]

If the Channel Tunnel had not been abandoned in the 70s and finished in 1980, would BR, SNCF and SNCB have formed Eurostar or would things be different?

I dont understand your question i doubt there would have been any difference had it opened in 1980 compared to when it opened in 1993. The origins of Eurostar today are exactly what you said it was formed from an agreement between BR, SNCF and SNCB. Eurostar trains were built using dual voltage stock and run on existing 3rd rail dc lines in kent when the tunnel opened.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 1970s scheme was a public project involving the 3 state-owned railways.
By the 1980s it was a largely private project, and in the UK at least the aim was to separate Eurostar from the rest of BR and seek external investment for it - as has happened with HS1 itself, as well as Eurostar.
Regulation was/is also different from the domestic situation, being controlled by the Anglo-French Channel Tunnel Treaty* rather than ORR and their equivalents in France and Belgium.
EU cross-border regulation also came into it, and those provisions still apply although we can change them if we wish (within the scope of the Treaty).

* which mandates things like the tunnel safety and security regimes

 

[Taunton]

There were some classic PR photographs issued about the 1970 scheme. One of them showed prominent executives at a promotional meeting, where a model railway of trains entering a tunnel portal had been put together from presumably the local model shop's Hornby catalogue. It featured a Class 86 locomotive, half a dozen early BR unbraked goods wagons, and an open veranda BR guards van, complete with the chimney for its stove ...

 

[Class08Shunter]

I dont understand your question i doubt there would have been any difference had it opened in 1980 compared to when it opened in 1993. The origins of Eurostar today are exactly what you said it was formed from an agreement between BR, SNCF and SNCB. Eurostar trains were built using dual voltage stock and run on existing 3rd rail dc lines in kent when the tunnel opened.

What i'm saying is would Eurostar have been formed, or would the three companies have ran their own trains? BR trains through the tunnel, SNCF trains through the tunnel and SNCB trains through the tunnel.

 

[WestCountry]

There's a 1974 N gauge model, commissioned by British Rail, in the NRM.

The 'tunnel' train is depicted as SNCF stock led by what I think is a CC7100, unlikely being 1.5kV DC!
Running parallel to a 3rd-rail Mk1 EMU on the classic network.

not my photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/127699427@N02/17112308200

 

[The exile]

I dont understand your question i doubt there would have been any difference had it opened in 1980 compared to when it opened in 1993.

The service would have had purpose-built loco-hauled stock (almost certainly including sleepers) which probably would have survived well into this century. Other than the fact that travel patterns (particularly overnight) might have had time to get established before the low cost airlines got going, little would be different by now (except possibly for where the London terminus was - or even if it was a terminus)

 

[StephenHunter]

The service would have had purpose-built loco-hauled stock (almost certainly including sleepers) which probably would have survived well into this century. Other than the fact that travel patterns (particularly overnight) might have had time to get established before the low cost airlines got going, little would be different by now (except possibly for where the London terminus was - or even if it was a terminus)

Concur about the sleepers. They declined in mainland Europe due to high speed day trains and low cost airlines.

 

[ABB125]

They certainly wouldn't have accepted mk3s with plug doors on the continent.

Out of interest, why is that?

 

[MattRat]

Concur about the sleepers. They declined in mainland Europe due to high speed day trains and low cost airlines.

While they may have died out later, that wouldn't stop high speed trains taking over, and with us still firmly in the EU in those days, and Sleeper routes likely going further afield, the high speed trains would do the same, which would make Brexit even more interesting as they wouldn't just have to worry about border control at St Pancras, but likely stations all across the network.

It would also mean the possibility of high speed UK rail projects more likely getting the go ahead, as they could also be used by the now high speed international trains.

 

[GS250]

Out of interest, why is that?

Self face palm moment. I think I meant 'without' plug doors.

As far as I'm aware these were standard fit on most long distance rail coaches from the 70s on.

 

[HSTEd]

Given that multi-voltage PEP stock existed at this time, would we not just have had a 100mph flat front EMU to do Paris to London in place of the boat train?