Future of Class 379

[Peter Sarf]

I worry about them, there’s no takers at the moment and with a massive surplus of EMUs I don’t see them going anywhere but Newport (or Rotherham).

There is all the rest of the Mk3 Era EMUs to get through first - classes 317-322. They are older and with Scotrail looking to replace their 318s and 320s there is perhaps a chance for the 379s in 3car form if feasible ?. Depends if new build of the right quantity is more attractive.

Some more electrification needs to happen but we can only hope.

 

[Wivenswold]

Given the current paralysis at the DfT, the smart money is on these units sitting gathering dust for at least another year.
30 examples of what a lack of a clear long-term vision for our railways looks like.

 

[JonathanH]

30 examples of what a lack of a clear long-term vision for our railways looks like.

That is a bit unfair. There was a clear long-term vision for these units. They were going to go to the Great Northern route, and the resulting cascade would have eliminated the 455s on Southern.

The fact they are spare is because that cascade was not needed to eliminate the 455s, as it could be done within Southern's existing resources.

The fact that revenue hasn't recovered is the reason the 379s sit spare. They simply aren't needed at the moment. No amount of long-term planning can fill the revenue gap and change the 379 position if passengers aren't providing that revenue. Indeed, a decision which used the 379s elsewhere would be a short-term response to the issue of them sitting spare.

Even if you take the view that the 379s should be used to move more fresh air around the network in advance of revenue recovering over the long term, that gap still needs to be filled in the short term to pay for them.

For all we know, the long-term plan for these units could still be use on GTR in some way in the future, but with the expenditure on getting them back into service deferred for another year's budget.

 

[Southern Dvr]

So we know any more about the invite to tender that GTR put out for more AC EMUs recently?

 

[Energy]

So we know any more about the invite to tender that GTR put out for more AC EMUs recently?

Nothing external yet, we also may hear nothing of this tender if the bids received cost too much.

Just to be clear this is different to the GWR tender which ended in a extension on the 387s, GTR already have the 387s leased until at least 2027 so this is for additional rolling stock.

The tender species up to 30 25kv units with end gangways, so likely 379s in mind.

 

[3RDGEN]

Given the current paralysis at the DfT, the smart money is on these units sitting gathering dust for at least another year.
30 examples of what a lack of a clear long-term vision for our railways looks like.

The reason their parked up is because the DfT sanctioned a massive investment in 100% replacement of the Greater Anglia fleets for new builds of common fleets.

 

[Energy]

The reason their parked up is because the DfT sanctioned a massive investment in 100% replacement of the Greater Anglia fleets for new builds of common fleets.

I don't think that's fair criticism of the DfT, the pre covid projected passenger numbers were a lot higher and they didn't require new build stock but stock to be of new build quality (think renatus 321). They did specify standard class seats into London between 0800 and 0859.

I'd expect there to have been plans for 379s to Great Northern but the price from the ROSCO being too high, then killed by covid and then killed by inflation.

 

[bramling]

I don't think that's fair criticism of the DfT, the pre covid projected passenger numbers were a lot higher and they didn't require new build stock but stock to be of new build quality (think renatus 321). They did specify standard class seats into London between 0800 and 0859.

I'd expect there to have been plans for 379s to Great Northern but the price from the ROSCO being too high, then killed by covid and then killed by inflation.

I’m not sure 379 to GN really arose until after Covid when there was some element of desire to ditch the 313 & 455 fleets. It then transpired that this could be done without any replacements.

Had Covid not happened, it might have been the case that we could have seen something like 379 to GN with some element of either 313 or 365 replacement, but pre Covid there wouldn’t have been enough 379s to replace both, though it might have been possible with the 387/3s thrown in.

 

[warwickshire]

I don't think that's fair criticism of the DfT, the pre covid projected passenger numbers were a lot higher and they didn't require new build stock but stock to be of new build quality (think renatus 321). They did specify standard class seats into London between 0800 and 0859.

I'd expect there to have been plans for 379s to Great Northern but the price from the ROSCO being too high, then killed by covid and then killed by inflation.

Don't forget there was only 21 365 left for peak use on GTR anyway, regardless of covid, however demand could have or if would have changed then yes 30 x 379s, replacement units even better. However in end covid and prices took hold, however if covid didn't take effect plus the pricing, then yes myself I am more than sure,
that original plans would have happened and x30 379s would be on GTR ie x 9 units more than x21 365, so extra capacity. Also it would have given GTR a standard fleet of 700 ,717, 387, 379 for example, for operating purposes, and costs, for example, ie for driver only, ie 379s have cameras on the bodyside, so no need for the station monitors, or when failing, waiting at stations like the 365 did for a dispatcher. St Neots being one of them on a regular basis. Ie delay to train, plus 379 have Aircon, and WiFi, so costs reimbursement that way
So yes sad to say I miss them 365 as well , the invetiable would have happened, and the 379 would have replaced the 365, but would have been a gradually phased process most likely, between May 2022 and December 2022. So 365 in reality have finished a year or so a little bit earlier than they would have. However quite possible the 379s could all well be GTR bound sound.

 

[Energy]

Don't forget there was only 21 365 left for peak use on GTR anyway

365 utilisation wasn't that high though

 

[43102EMR]

365 utilisation wasn't that high though

Unless they plan to focus the 379s on the workings the 387s mainly cover on the Great Northern route, that is *if* GTR are taking them on.

 

[MML]

I think the 379 would help return some Great Northern peak services to 12-car operation, with some 387 retained and the surplus used to alleviate the stock shortages on Southern.

 

[bramling]

Unless they plan to focus the 379s on the workings the 387s mainly cover on the Great Northern route, that is *if* GTR are taking them on.

Things are rather different to what they were in 2019. The majority of the 365 services still don’t exist. There were six Baldock services per peak as well as three evening down workings, none of which have returned (a limited number did briefly in one of the Covid timetables IIRC). Likewise all but three peak-flow Peterborough trips are still missing as well, which is quite remiss really considering these had been around for many years.

Although the 365 utilisation was low, there wasn’t much scope to reduce the units as they were all heading towards or away from London at the same time. If the fleet had been all 387 it might have been possible to squeeze the odd extra trip in, especially to/from Baldock, but it wouldn’t be possible to reduce by much.

 

[JonathanH]

alleviate the stock shortages on Southern.

Southern appear to have enough trains to run the timetabled service.

Leaving East Croydon now at 0727 on a non stop train to London Bridge and there are 22 passengers in my carriage. That is barely a quarter of how many passengers might reasonably be on board.

I recognise that might not be the case on all of Southern's services, but passengers are still not crowding out peak time trains into London.

Unfortunately, it seems pretty clear why the 379s are in sidings.

 

[43102EMR]

There's a Worksop Sims Newport run on 28th. Just saying.

321409 and 321432

 

[Minstral25]

Southern appear to have enough trains to run the timetabled service.

Leaving East Croydon now at 0727 on a non stop train to London Bridge and there are 22 passengers in my carriage. That is barely a quarter of how many passengers might reasonably be on board.

I recognise that might not be the case on all of Southern's services, but passengers are still not crowding out peak time trains into London.

Unfortunately, it seems pretty clear why the 379s are in sidings.

Hmm - whilst I agree with the view they do have enough trains (but only just) - the 7:27 to LBG runs 4 minutes behind a 12 car Thameslink to LBG from the same platform at East Croydon, so it is no surprise that an ex-Tattenham/Caterham train has relatively few new passengers joining, and if you are in the Tattenham portion it would be historically fairly empty too.

Southern probably need half a dozen extra 4 car units to use as maintenance spares of which the entire series of 379's is way too many

 

[Energy]

Southern probably need half a dozen extra 4 car units to use as maintenance spares of which the entire series of 379's is way too many

GTR have decided that they need 21-30 4 car EMUs or they wouldn't have put the tender out

 

[Bald Rick]

Hmm - whilst I agree with the view they do have enough trains (but only just) - the 7:27 to LBG runs 4 minutes behind a 12 car Thameslink to LBG from the same platform at East Croydon, so it is no surprise that an ex-Tattenham/Caterham train has relatively few new passengers joining, and if you are in the Tattenham portion it would be historically fairly empty too.

But the only station the 0723 and 0727 both call at south of East Croydon is South Croydon. So even if no one boarded the latter at either of those, it’s still a rather empty train from Caterham / Tattenham Corner and Purley.

 

[PGAT]

There are definitely spare 377s for Southern to use, but they seem adamant about keeping mileage down as low as possible, so extra 379s wouldn't help much.

 

[Sm5]

But the only station the 0723 and 0727 both call at south of East Croydon is South Croydon. So even if no one boarded the latter at either of those, it’s still a rather empty train from Caterham / Tattenham Corner and Purley.

I have to wonder the long term future of both branches.
Caterham runs within metres of equivalent stations on the Hurst Green line. Tattenham competes with a faster main road, to both Sutton and Purley.

 

[PGAT]

Caterham runs within metres of equivalent stations on the Hurst Green line.

Would be a shame if the Oxted line were to only get 1tph

 

[Poyntz]

Would be a shame if the Oxted line were to only get 1tph

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==

Anyone coming new to the thread would be hard pressed to understand the relevance of these comments.

 

[RobShipway]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==

Anyone coming new to the thread would be hard pressed to understand the relevance of these comments.

Well, if they have read the thread about May 2023 timetable changes https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/may-2023-changes.239045/page-36#post-6163038, then they realise that the trains going to Oxted have been changed to be a mixture of 8 & 12 car trains.

 

[MattRat]

There are definitely spare 377s for Southern to use, but they seem adamant about keeping mileage down as low as possible, so extra 379s wouldn't help much.

Well, if a train isn't running, it has less maintenance costs. Admittedly, it's like that Yes Minister sketch involving the hospital (hospital with no patients), but unfortunately this is the world we live in.

 

[Wivenswold]

My comment about the units being a "lack of a clear long-term vision for our railways looks like" refers more broadly to how we got to a situation where such expensive leasing costs were agreed for the fleet in the first place, likewise agreeing their replacement and how we've gotten to a situation where passengers have to sit on ancient DMUs across the country because there aren't enough lines being electrified. This situation didn't start with GA deciding, somewhat understandably, to lease cheaper trains. It's the end result of decades of mismanagement of the network.

 

[Clansman]

There is all the rest of the Mk3 Era EMUs to get through first - classes 317-322. They are older and with Scotrail looking to replace their 318s and 320s there is perhaps a chance for the 379s in 3car form if feasible ?. Depends if new build of the right quantity is more attractive.

379s aren't feasible for ScotRail unfortunatley.

Transport ScotRail are already in the process of tendring for new built regional bi-mode replacements for the 318s/320s/334s, which will also blanket replace the 158s and 170s.

While they look prettier, the 379s just won't cut it, being over 10 years old and the most expensive EMUs to lease. Definitely not worth ScotRail's time, money, and operational hassle.

In the mean time the 318s and 320s have recently been overhauled so they should last the decade without completely falling apart.

 

[Trainbike46]

379s aren't feasible for ScotRail unfortunatley.

Transport ScotRail are already in the process of tendring for new built regional bi-mode replacements for the 318s/320s/334s, which will also blanket replace the 158s and 170s.

While they look prettier, the 379s just won't cut it, being over 10 years old and the most expensive EMUs to lease. Definitely not worth ScotRail's time, money, and operational hassle.

In the mean time the 318s and 320s have recently been overhauled so they should last the decade without completely falling apart.

Scotrail's new order isn't for bimodes in the traditional sense of the word, but for a combined EMU and BEMU fleet, with the EMU-only part of the fleet taking the fully electrified routes and the BEMU part taking the routes where a battery is needed to bridge gaps in electrification, such as fife and the borders railway.

Fully agreed that scotrail is unlikely to take up the 379s, or the available 350s for that matter.

 

[Mikey C]

379s aren't feasible for ScotRail unfortunatley.

Transport ScotRail are already in the process of tendring for new built regional bi-mode replacements for the 318s/320s/334s, which will also blanket replace the 158s and 170s.

While they look prettier, the 379s just won't cut it, being over 10 years old and the most expensive EMUs to lease. Definitely not worth ScotRail's time, money, and operational hassle.

In the mean time the 318s and 320s have recently been overhauled so they should last the decade without completely falling apart.

I can see why the 379s may be unsuitable for Scotrail, but the lease costs won't be a reason for that, as the leasing company that owns them now has a choice between some income or zero income and a trip to the scrapyard.

 

[Clansman]

I can see why the 379s may be unsuitable for Scotrail, but the lease costs won't be a reason for that, as the leasing company that owns them now has a choice between some income or zero income and a trip to the scrapyard.

A trip to the scrapyard can still generate more income from the value of what's left than the leasing cost that would incentivise the market to utilise the 379s.

Leasing costs are absolutely part of the economic case to accept or reject any fleet. The 379s are no different in ScotRail's case. If they were cheap enough to lease and the operating costs were lower than the 318s/320s after binning their leases, then there's an economic case for ScotRail to utilise them for the next 7 years.

Though that's not to say leasing costs are at the forefront of the reaons to reject them, but they're definitely relevant none the less in some shape or form.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The main issue with them or the 350s going to Scotrail is that the fleets being renewed in Scotland are 3 car units and the whole infrastructure is set up to accomodate that.

Yes, there are 4 car class 380s and 385s running around - but those run on very specific routes. The bulk of the service provision is 3 or 6 cars. Very few stations can cope with 8 cars - and a single 4 car would be inadequate in place of a 6 car.