High Speed rail from Ramsgate to Bournemouth

[WesternBiker]

Could running trains from Brighton to Bournemouth be more lucrative than having trains from Manchester?

The short answer is "who knows?", but the Bournemouth-Manchester service in my experience is it gets pretty crowded from Basingstoke northwards.

As others have said, the problem for the coastal service is at the moment the current service between Brighton and Southampton is so slow, largely because of the number of stops and the lack of scope for overtaking, although the Southampton-Havant section is slow, period. The trains can get very busy with people going relatively short distances - it feels much more like a long local service than one suitable for travelling between the end points. I used to travel from Brighton to Cardiff regularly, and going via London could be over an hour quicker than via Fratton. So the market for a faster service just hasn't been tested.

 

[JonathanH]

So the market for a faster service just hasn't been tested.

It never will be either.

 

[zwk500]

Bournemouth (BMH) is also a bit of a problem, as there's nowhere really to terminate. Platform 1 is way too short, Platforms 2 and 3 are busy enough as it is. Platform 4 has the same problem as Platform 3 which is the moment you use 4 you then can't get trains out of 3.

If they didn't make any changes to BMH, then there is a gap between xx24 and xx45 where neither platform 2 or 3 is used, but I doubt it'd be possible to terminate the service, go into then out of the sidings then board and leave before the CrossCountry service arrives at p2 at xx40.

If you're spending the sort of money on getting everything else sorted, then spending the money to get Bournemouth rebuilt to give additional terminating capacity isn't that big of a deal, if you can't fit it into the existing tunrbacks.

 

[PGAT]

There’s no fixing the Havant - Southampton section. The line is simply too bendy and the area around it is too built up for anything to be built.

That being said, it could be made up for if the rest of the West Coastway to Brighton could be improved. Improving line speeds to 90mph and adding loops of track here and there could be done relatively easily and massively relieve the overcrowded 4 car trains. Unfortunately everything else won’t be that easy.

 

[zwk500]

There’s no fixing the Havant - Southampton section. The line is simply too bendy and the area around it is too built up for anything to be built.

Havant-Fareham isn't too bad. And if you were truly being crazy enough to try something like this, at Swanwick you keep going straight and follow the M27 around to the north before turning down the Itchen Valley to join in the SWML north of St Denys. And then you think about how to get more capacity through Southampton tunnel (explosives are probably involved).

That being said, it could be made up for if the rest of the West Coastway to Brighton could be improved. Improving line speeds to 90mph and adding loops of track here and there could be done relatively easily and massively relieve the overcrowded 4 car trains. Unfortunately everything else won’t be that easy.

No it couldn't. The property is up to the boundary, there are frequent stations and there are numerous level crossings that would need upgrading. Getting clear corridors for useful Slow lines in the right places (that part is key) will be near impossible without substantial demolition.

 

[SussexSeagull]

I live in Worthing and due to it being located between the Sea - with sea levels a factor for long term planning - and the South Downs National Park it is VERY hard to get anything built. The A27 widening through Worthing first got suggested in the late 60s and still hasn't happened (although they did compulsory purchase houses in the 90s).

To double track the West Coastway between Goring and Lancing might lead to - and this is a off the top of the head figure - the loss of a couple of thousand homes in an area that needs more housing. Only alternative is tunnelling and that would cost an absolute fortune to upgrade a line that actually isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things. Will never happen.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Would need a new route if they really want a direct train service from Kent to Bournemouth bypassing London. They could rebuild the Alton to Winchester line as a modern electrified railway and electrify the North Downs Line then run Ashford-Tonbridge-Gatwick Airport-Guildford-Alton-Winchester-Southampton-Bournemouth, calling at Gatwick Airport to make the service a useful direct train connecting Gatwick Airport with Winchester, Southampton Central and Bournemouth. However anyone wanting to go from Kent to Southampton and Bournemouth would I assume take a train to Charing Cross and change at Waterloo East for a 10 car class 444 from London Waterloo to Winchester, Southampton Central, Bournemouth and Weymouth.

 

[JonathanH]

However anyone wanting to go from Kent to Southampton and Bournemouth would I assume take a train to Charing Cross and change at Waterloo East for a 10 car class 444 from London Waterloo to Winchester, Southampton Central, Bournemouth and Weymouth.

For the time being there is a financial incentive not to take that route.

 

[devon_belle]

The property is up to the boundary, there are frequent stations and there are numerous level crossings that would need upgrading. Getting clear corridors for useful Slow lines in the right places (that part is key) will be near impossible without substantial demolition.

I take it that strategically placed third tracks - alternating either side - has been considered and is also off the cards? It doesn't solve most of the problems you mention but could at least reduce the cost of land required.

If only the grouping era prosperity had lasted a little longer, we may well have seen substantial rebuilding of parts of this corridor, as with various other enlargements in the 1930s. Bypassing Brighton does seem like the most unlikely idea of them all, though.

I do wonder if anything will ever be done to improve the long distance traffic possibilities on the coastways.

 

[JonathanH]

I do wonder if anything will ever be done to improve the long distance traffic possibilities on the coastways.

I'd say that it is very unlikely.

There is no chance of it being self funding, the land isn't really available to do much, and it is just in the wrong part of the country to be any sort of strategic priority.

 

[Bald Rick]

I take it that strategically placed third tracks - alternating either side - has been considered and is also off the cards? It doesn't solve most of the problems you mention but could at least reduce the cost of land required.

It doesn’t help much. You need a run of 3rd / 4th line, that needs to cover at least two consecutive stations. Otherwise to speed up the limited stop services, you have to slow down the stoppers.

But yes, lots of potential solutions have been considered.

IMHO the best achievable solution is going to be ETCS signalling with an ATO overlay, and some units with sparkling acceleration. That would save about 5 minutes on the stoppers each side of Arundel Junctions, which enables all other trains to be similarly sped up.

of course the easiest way to reduce the journey times is to remove some station stops.

 

[RichJF]

"Talks have taken place" i.e. someone proposed a crackpot idea to justify a page on KentOnline.

 

[JKF]

Once you get to Bournemouth you might as well reinstate the S&DJR to Bath, that’d probably improve the business case overall…

 

[Trainguy34]

Or extend to Weymouth

Once you get to Bournemouth you might as well reinstate the S&DJR to Bath, that’d probably improve the business case overall…

 

[dastocks]

Couldn't they just extend the Volks Electric Railway in both directions?
Obviously there would have to be tunnels to get across the river estuaries, but I can't see that being a big problem?

 

[devon_belle]

Couldn't they just extend the Volks Electric Railway in both directions?

I think it would be a good opportunity to upgrade it to 25kV AC too...

 

[zwk500]

I think it would be a good opportunity to upgrade it to 25kV AC too...

And maybe widen the gauge

 

[devon_belle]

And maybe widen the gauge

Nah, just re-gauge some D stock

 

[JKF]

And maybe widen the gauge

Has to be large enough to take hi-cube containers from Southampton too…