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High Speed rail from Ramsgate to Bournemouth

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kentrailman

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The local paper, Kent Online suggests " Talks have taken place between Kent and East Sussex County councils"
The proposal, which all sides admit remains in its “infancy”, would see a direct service between Manston – presumably from the new Manston Parkway station, due to open in July - and Bournemouth. Although it seems more likely it would extend to Ramsgate.

The route would partially utlise the Marshlink line, currently operated by Govia Thameslink Railway (Southern), which links Ashford to Hastings. The idea would then see a direct line to Brighton before heading further down the south coast.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet...peed-trains-from-thanet-to-bournemout-287529/

Yes it would be a nice thing to have but !!!!!
 
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zwk500

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This is ludicrous. It's Thanet Parkway not Manston Parkway for starters, and while thr Eastbourne chord is reasonably straightforward the Brighton one would definitely not be.
And that's before you get to the potential demand, and financials
 

JonathanH

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The article very much acknowledges that there is no chance of this happening.
“Blue-sky thinking became stratospheric and they said ‘well, we could go beyond Eastbourne and Brighton and we could go to Portsmouth and Southampton and Bournemouth would be the limit of our ambitions’.

“It's a wonderful idea which is unfundable - it will not be funded in my lifetime and probably not in yours.

“There are so many things to spend money on this would be about a million miles down the list.

“Fundamentally it might be something which happens in a very, very long time but not at the moment.”
Basically it appears that some people got together, looked at a map and came up with a fantasy rail service, then recognised there was no chance of it happening.
 

zwk500

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It has very strong hints of Transport for South East and the local Councillors desperately trying to justify their jobs.
 

STINT47

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Whilst this will be quicker I will personally stick with using via Barnham tickets for this route as its much cheaper.
 

kentrailman

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Yes that would be a shame to lose our"secret" cheap fare that only comes up if you enter " via Eastbourne" or similar into search engine.
E.g. Ramsgate to Portsmouth day return fare £86.40 but " via Barnham" is £25.80 but don't tell anyone .. Oops.
Both road and rail on this route are terrible and it seems it would be almost quicker to walk at times. There were previously similar fantasy dreams of a high speed road following same route.
 

Bartsimho

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Surely something that would allow faster speeds and higher capacity just to start with would be looking to double some of the South Coastway to allow passing of Fast services rather than them all being slow?
 

WesternBiker

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It's a very strange article. Having set out the proposal, almost everyone quoted says it is pointless, or very unlikely to happen, or denies all knowledge of it. Is Kent short of real news at the moment?

The article does give some clue as to the origin, but even that is shrouded in disavowals and "no comments" ...

"It is believed the organisation behind the proposals is the East Sussex Rail Alliance. Its chair is Ray Chapman, an experienced transport professional. He declined to comment when contacted.

It is thought East Sussex MPs and county council were keen on the idea as a chance to breathe new life into the likes of Hastings by providing a faster route, via Ashford, on HS1 and dramatically slashing travel times to Brighton. KCC had no involvement other than Cllr Brazier’s attendance. He added: “There is no harm in thinking the thoughts or spending a couple of hours holding a meeting about it. KCC certainly didn't dream it up - we were only invited as we're the public transport authority for Kent, which is where the route would start."
 

zwk500

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Surely something that would allow faster speeds and higher capacity just to start with would be looking to double some of the South Coastway to allow passing of Fast services rather than them all being slow?
It's not the 'South Coastway', it's two very distinct routes - the 'East Coastway' and 'West Coastway', split at Brighton. It is not possible to get a through train from East to West (there is only one connection and it involves a train no more than 4-cars long reversing in Platform 3 at Brighton). The East Coastway is an interesting one because of the dive into Eastbourne and back, with only 2 intermediate stations (Glynde and Berwick) between Polegate and Lewes so it isn't really in need of more infrastructure. What the EC really needs is some platform lengthening to allow 8-cars on the Brighton-Eastbourne route without SDO (12-car platforms would be nice but the cost increases signficantly for them at Lewes).
The West Coastway, on the other hand, very much could do with some 4-track however the stations are very closely packed, there are frequent Level crossings and houses back very close up to the boundary. The cost of just acquiring sufficient land to quad-track Lancing to Worthing (or something in that area) would be horrendous. So the issue is where else you can pass - Barnham has 1 loop, and you can send trains to Littlehampton to terminate but other than that you are very limited in options.
 

Trainguy34

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I think someone must have been intoxicated when making this as it would need to:
1. Reverse at Ashford or build a chord but there are houses in the way
2. Electrify Marshlink and then find paths along with the Southern stoppers and the HS1 extension that would probably happen if electrified
3. Build an Eastbourne chord which could be possible
4. Build a Brighton chord (Very tricky) or use the 1 platform accessible from both Eastbourne and Hove sides (Platform 3)
5. Either lose lots of Portsmouth traffic for the sake of speed and not reversing or branch off / terminate and Portsmouth & Ssea / Harbour
 

STINT47

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A high speed line would create one super coastway instead of a separate east and west lines.

Passengers for Eastbourne and Brighton can use slip coaches. This may sound a bit pie in the sky but the whole scheme is very realistic so why not reintroduce slipped coaches?
 

PGAT

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How would they plan to overcome the 10mph crawl through Lewes?

Or the treacherous curves near St Denys and Woolston?
 

The Planner

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Passengers for Eastbourne and Brighton can use slip coaches. This may sound a bit pie in the sky but the whole scheme is very realistic so why not reintroduce slipped coaches?
A bit pie in the sky? Really?
 

RobShipway

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It's not the 'South Coastway', it's two very distinct routes - the 'East Coastway' and 'West Coastway', split at Brighton. It is not possible to get a through train from East to West (there is only one connection and it involves a train no more than 4-cars long reversing in Platform 3 at Brighton). The East Coastway is an interesting one because of the dive into Eastbourne and back, with only 2 intermediate stations (Glynde and Berwick) between Polegate and Lewes so it isn't really in need of more infrastructure. What the EC really needs is some platform lengthening to allow 8-cars on the Brighton-Eastbourne route without SDO (12-car platforms would be nice but the cost increases signficantly for them at Lewes).
The West Coastway, on the other hand, very much could do with some 4-track however the stations are very closely packed, there are frequent Level crossings and houses back very close up to the boundary. The cost of just acquiring sufficient land to quad-track Lancing to Worthing (or something in that area) would be horrendous. So the issue is where else you can pass - Barnham has 1 loop, and you can send trains to Littlehampton to terminate but other than that you are very limited in options.
How would they plan to overcome the 10mph crawl through Lewes?

Or the treacherous curves near St Denys and Woolston?
Not sure how you are going to lengthen the platforms at Lewes, for 12 car coach on the platforms used by East Coastway trains, when they can only just about take 8 car trains. Although, Lewes is not mentioned as a stop, even though it is the county town of East Sussex and I am sure that should the ESCC where to give agreement to a high speed link being built, it would have to stop and go through Lewes.

I would be interested to what path they would be using for the high speed rail link, I am presuming that the trains would not be going on existing tracks in any form.

The article, is totally incorrect on one of the routing's to Brighton when it states the following:

"Currently, rail passengers from Thanet wanting to travel to Brighton have two options; either head into London and catch a direct route down to the East Sussex city, or travel to Ashford, change, and then head to Hastings. Another change at Hastings then takes you down to Brighton. Onward travel there, west, along the south coast is also fractured or requires a trip to London first, and then a service down from the capital to eventually reach Bournemouth."

You don't have to change again at Hastings, as the service from Ashford goes to Eastbourne and you can change there for a service to Brighton.

I think someone must have been intoxicated when making this as it would need to:
1. Reverse at Ashford or build a chord but there are houses in the way
2. Electrify Marshlink and then find paths along with the Southern stoppers and the HS1 extension that would probably happen if electrified
3. Build an Eastbourne chord which could be possible
4. Build a Brighton chord (Very tricky) or use the 1 platform accessible from both Eastbourne and Hove sides (Platform 3)
5. Either lose lots of Portsmouth traffic for the sake of speed and not reversing or branch off / terminate and Portsmouth & Ssea / Harbour
I would have to agree with you @Trainguy34. For the high speed link, you would have to be building a new station for Eastbourne as there is no space to have a new line coming into Eastbourne station from the East without knocking down a whole lot of properties. Not sure anyone would want to be doing that after what has gone on with HS2.

I cannot see that there is really that much demand for people to travel from Ramsgate to Bournemouth, so I am suspecting it is down to someone within East Sussex Rail Alliance having relatives in both Ramsgate and Bournemouth?

The services from Bournemouth to London Victoria, where cut as there was not much patronage between Bournemouth and Southampton on the service. More people got on at Southampton than either Bournemouth or Brockenhurst.

Although the best pie in the sky for me, is about the town of Peacehaven where I grew up and the entrenpreneur Charles Neville who designed the long straight roads in Peacehaven to be Canadian/American style stating back in about in about 1927, "Peacehaven as a town would be on the national rail network by the end of the 1930's".
 

zwk500

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Not sure how you are going to lengthen the platforms at Lewes, for 12 car coach on the platforms used by East Coastway trains, when they can only just about take 8 car trains. Although, Lewes is not mentioned as a stop, even though it is the county town of East Sussex and I am sure that should the ESCC where to give agreement to a high speed link being built, it would have to stop and go through Lewes.
Tbh I could see a Lewes bypass line following the A27 with trains to call there looping off. Regarding the platforms it's very expensive as you need to totally rebuild the bridge carrying the mini roundabout at the Brighton end and remodel the junction such that 5 and 4 are extended eastwards and 3 is extended back towards Brighton. Obviously it'll never happen in 100 years but it's not technically impossible to do it, although it'll take out the signal box and siding.
 

PGAT

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To add insult to injury Platform 1 and 2 ARE long enough for 12 coaches, but can’t be used.
 

RobShipway

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Tbh I could see a Lewes bypass line following the A27 with trains to call there looping off. Regarding the platforms it's very expensive as you need to totally rebuild the bridge carrying the mini roundabout at the Brighton end and remodel the junction such that 5 and 4 are extended eastwards and 3 is extended back towards Brighton. Obviously it'll never happen in 100 years but it's not technically impossible to do it, although it'll take out the signal box and siding.
I have to agree possibly the best way @zwk500 would be to have a Lewes bypass line, although the line for me would not be a High Speed link, it would be a line where the town areas of Peacehaven, Saltdean/Rottingdean to help get traffic away from the A259 in those areas. In this, the line would need to be south of the A27 from Hampden Park. The problem with that is that you would have to be building within the South Downs National Park grounds possibly?
 

zwk500

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I have to agree possibly the best way @zwk500 would be to have a Lewes bypass line, although the line for me would not be a High Speed link, it would be a line where the town areas of Peacehaven, Saltdean/Rottingdean to help get traffic away from the A259 in those areas. In this, the line would need to be south of the A27 from Hampden Park. The problem with that is that you would have to be building within the South Downs National Park grounds possibly?
Peacehaven, Saltdean etc I don't think is in the national park (although you would cross it to get to them) but, um, have a look at the terrain. It would be a rather 'swoopy' line that wouldn't do any favours for people who suffer from travelsickness.
 

32475

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I saw the article on Kent online yesterday and thought April fools day had come very late or incredibly early. A nice idea in theory but impractical and the cost of ironing out all the reversals such as Ashford, Eastbourne, Lewes and Brighton would be colossal.
 

Magdalia

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I think that there is a lack of imagination and ambition here, that does not turn the peculiar coastline of Sussex to advantage.

The South Downs are just inland from the coastline, running all the way from Beachy Head near Eastbourne to Butser Hill near Havant, but are only cut through by 4 major rivers: the Ouse at Lewes, the Adur at Shoreham, the Arun at Arundel and the Rother at Emsworth.

A truly ambitious South Coastway high speed line would mostly be in tunnels under the South Downs, only emerging above ground to cross the 4 major river valleys, where interchange stations would be located. Brighton and Hove would be connected by a giant underground junction with curves to and from Clayton Tunnel on both east and west sides.

But good luck with the "Great Wall of Sussex" at Arundel!
 

JonathanH

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I think that there is a lack of imagination and ambition here, that does not turn the peculiar coastline of Sussex to advantage.
A lack of imagination and ambition matched by the fact that significant rail investment south or south west of London is not on anyone's agenda.
 

zwk500

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I think that there is a lack of imagination and ambition here, that does not turn the peculiar coastline of Sussex to advantage.

The South Downs are just inland from the coastline, running all the way from Beachy Head near Eastbourne to Butser Hill near Havant, but are only cut through by 4 major rivers: the Ouse at Lewes, the Adur at Shoreham, the Arun at Arundel and the Rother at Emsworth.
It's worth pointing out that at Rottingdean area the South Downs steadily work their way inland (the last cliffs are at Brighton Marina on the easfern edge of the city) and a reasonable plain builds up along the coast - by the time you're at Chichester there's barely a bump in sight.
The south downs only hug the coast in East Sussex, in West Sussex the coast itself is much flatter.
 

BenS123

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Bournemouth (BMH) is also a bit of a problem, as there's nowhere really to terminate. Platform 1 is way too short, Platforms 2 and 3 are busy enough as it is. Platform 4 has the same problem as Platform 3 which is the moment you use 4 you then can't get trains out of 3.

If they didn't make any changes to BMH, then there is a gap between xx24 and xx45 where neither platform 2 or 3 is used, but I doubt it'd be possible to terminate the service, go into then out of the sidings then board and leave before the CrossCountry service arrives at p2 at xx40.
 

PGAT

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Bournemouth (BMH) is also a bit of a problem, as there's nowhere really to terminate. Platform 1 is way too short, Platforms 2 and 3 are busy enough as it is. Platform 4 has the same problem as Platform 3 which is the moment you use 4 you then can't get trains out of 3.

If they didn't make any changes to BMH, then there is a gap between xx24 and xx45 where neither platform 2 or 3 is used, but I doubt it'd be possible to terminate the service, go into then out of the sidings then board and leave before the CrossCountry service arrives at p2 at xx40.
That gives you about 15 minutes, it's certainly do-able
 

JonathanH

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Needs to stop at Polesworth for this scheme to be viable :p
That isn't exactly on the South Coast.

If they didn't make any changes to BMH, then there is a gap between xx24 and xx45 where neither platform 2 or 3 is used, but I doubt it'd be possible to terminate the service, go into then out of the sidings then board and leave before the CrossCountry service arrives at p2 at xx40.
Isn't it just a matter of priorities? If this sort of service is more important than one of the existing trains at Bournemouth then it could take its path.

Could running trains from Brighton to Bournemouth be more lucrative than having trains from Manchester?

Most service changes are a zero sum game. One service is taken off and replaced by something different.
 
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