Euston to Holyhead via Shrewsbury

[The Planner]

You are still assuming that it would move people off roads onto rail, the Heads of the Valleys should have been done years ago for a fraction of the cost it is now, if I recall it was a dangerous 3 lane road. It will also relieve the M4 from Newport onwards as traffic from the North and Midlands will be able to turn off at Ross and across the top. Electrifying the valleys wouldnt solve that problem, it is naive to think that road funding should just evaporate and schemes be shelved.

 

[merlodlliw]

According to Traveline, the service stops at:

Chester - Arr:0716, Dep: 0735
Crewe - Arr: 0754
Rugby - Arr: 0845
Euston - Arr: 0938

You & the Mold correspondent are both correct,I was looking at another VT,
the 0735 ex Chester does indeed stop at Rugby.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WAG Transport Minister might well be happy to see some services bypass Chester - e.g. WAG Express. 20 mins savings North Wales - South is very significant & WAG Express does not exist to serve Chester.

I'd much rather see this investment on Wrexham - Bidston than electrification by antiquated third rail technology!

Couple of points on this, you give an alternative, but Chester Like Shrewsbury are hubs & collect passengers from Flintshire & Powys,also both stations are
ATW/WAG managed, as strange as Gerald may seem, he will never leave out these Welsh managed stations.

The next transport Minister will change in five weeks,who ever he/she is may well have a differing view on Gerald,and can kill the Wag Ex mark1 off as its the only one of three Rail/Air services with a contract to Dec 2011. Saving on Gerald would be £2M in subsidy,no doubt ATW will want more for another year,plus the fare income as now.

Current, there is no money for a Shotton link South or indeed for a Saltney
curve South.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can see plenty of room to redouble Saltney to Wrexham, i think there was doubt over some bridges though, i cant remember.

Let me remind you,

On the East Cheshire side the is a narrow underpass beneath the Express way
this may just take two passing trains, The bridge over the Express way at Wrexham is single track only, these are the only obstacles.
The saving on both almost 30 years ago was only £475K.

According to The Wag Ministers statement,and more important money supposed ring fenced, he states work will commence 2012 on doubling the line Saltney to Rossett, with a single track for about two miles up Gresford Bank & over the bridge to Wrexham.
This plan as the full backing of ATW who see this section as a major pinch point & Network Rail for its own diversion usage.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The next transport Minister will change in five weeks

Have opinion polls shown lower Plaid Cymru support than at the last assembly election? If not, where is your evidence that the transport minister will change? If there are plans for Plaid Cymru to move their current transport minister to a different department if they retain a position of power then your statement is valid, but I haven't heard any evidence of this myself (not that I've been looking mind).

 

[merlodlliw]

Have opinion polls shown lower Plaid Cymru support than at the last assembly election? If not, where is your evidence that the transport minister will change? If there are plans for Plaid Cymru to move their current transport minister to a different department if they retain a position of power then your statement is valid, but I haven't heard any evidence of this myself (not that I've been looking mind).

Depends if its a coalition, the voting public are fickle, if its a labour Govt,due to current national status of Con/Lib, it will be a labour Minister .

The Ministerial set up is selected by A.Ms, & not all Plaid A.Ms are totally happy with Ieuan plus a new crowd are appearing, I note Geordie Born Janet Ryder listed Plaid A.M for North Wales was assassinated by her own party. And most certainly Labour A.Ms are not in love with Ieuan either. Ieuan was damaged by WAGAIR, which he pumped £Ms into & of course Plaid voted against at its conference. As for support of plaid, in fairness its supporters turn out to vote, whereas others don't seem to bother.
Enough of politics from me, back to rail

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

You are still assuming that it would move people off roads onto rail, the Heads of the Valleys should have been done years ago for a fraction of the cost it is now, if I recall it was a dangerous 3 lane road. It will also relieve the M4 from Newport onwards as traffic from the North and Midlands will be able to turn off at Ross and across the top. Electrifying the valleys wouldnt solve that problem, it is naive to think that road funding should just evaporate and schemes be shelved.

Given that AA route planner (which tells me Hereford to Neath will take 1hr 35mins) apparently assumes you have the only vehicle on the road and the amount you're complaining about traffic I doubt the rail journey of between 2hr 4mins and 2hr 8mins would be that much slower. The fact is these types of road schemes generate more traffic, and hence increase greenhouse gas emissions, and rail electrification does the opposite. The spending cuts mean we cannot afford both, so I recomend we take the green option and cancel the road schemes.

 

[steve099]

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011/03/29/plan-unveiled-to-restore-telford-to-stafford-rail-line/

Thoughts? Mine are of bewilderment.

 

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011/03/29/plan-unveiled-to-restore-telford-to-stafford-rail-line/

Thoughts? Mine are of bewilderment.

Barking around the houses when all you have to do is take off a Pendolino or two from Euston-Birmingham- Wolves and stick on a Voyager or 2 off the Scots to Birmingham run and extend to Shrewsbury a few trains- at least the Voyagers will then go off the wires. With the extra Pendolinos the new franchise will have you should be able to fiddle it around and you don't consume any more paths on the WCML.

 

[Masbroughlad]

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011/03/29/plan-unveiled-to-restore-telford-to-stafford-rail-line/

Thoughts? Mine are of bewilderment.

Not April the 1st yet is it?

 

[Gareth Marston]

You are still assuming that it would move people off roads onto rail, the Heads of the Valleys should have been done years ago for a fraction of the cost it is now, if I recall it was a dangerous 3 lane road. It will also relieve the M4 from Newport onwards as traffic from the North and Midlands will be able to turn off at Ross and across the top. Electrifying the valleys wouldnt solve that problem, it is naive to think that road funding should just evaporate and schemes be shelved.

Its already dual carriageway the whole way bar Hirwaun to Dowlais Top and the Clydach Gorge. The effect of completing it will hardly have any effect on through journey times for HGV's- they still slow down going uphill on those grades whether theirs 1 2 or 3 carriageways. Its a hangover from Welsh Office days.
Many politicians in Wales still believe roads are the magic key to economic prosperity so blithely support such schemes without thought. The poorest part of the UK- Ynys Mon/Angelsey economy has "flat lined" since devolution according to one leading academic. The big event on the island in the period was the building of dual carriageway across it. Its not brought jobs or prosperity. Merthyr Tydfil has had the A470 dual carriageway down the Taff Valley to the M4 and Cardiff for 20 years - its to take the bus to find work according to Westminster politicians - again evidence on the ground fails to back up the theory that roads bring in prosperity.

 

[The Planner]

So based on the logic that all road schemes are bad and everything rail is good, then both of the Severn bridges shouldn't have been built and neither should the M4 down to Pont Abraham ??

 

[Rhydgaled]

So based on the logic that all road schemes are bad and everything rail is good, then both of the Severn bridges shouldn't have been built and neither should the M4 down to Pont Abraham ??

Not sure about all road schemes are bad and everything rail is good, but certainlly not having the M4 down to Pont Abraham might be a good thing. The railway from Cardiff to Camarthen via Swansea might not be so woefully unable to compete on journey time.

 

[The Planner]

Are you really suggesting that all the current traffic from Cardiff onwards on the M4 can be absorbed by existing roads and by the railways ??

I can't find specific vpd figures for the M4 west of Cardiff, but the Dft suggests that 65000 vpd use the motorway through Wales here.

 

[cymro inside]

opinion polls for htv(sorry i mean itv 1 wales) show that labour may well have a working majority in the assembly after may, andrew davies may well have his old job back... chester will always have stops from and to the coast as more than 25 per cent of all journeys to and from the n wales coast begin and end at chestere.

 

[Greenback]

Are you really suggesting that all the current traffic from Cardiff onwards on the M4 can be absorbed by existing roads and by the railways ??

I can't find specific vpd figures for the M4 west of Cardiff, but the Dft suggests that 65000 vpd use the motorway through Wales here.

I think the suggestion is more to do with if the motorway had never been built, then traffic levels would not be so high, and maybe rail would have been more competitive?

I believe it's been proven now that building more roads merely attracts more traffic on to them. It would be interesting to think what would have happened if roads had been subjected to the same amount of demand suppression that rail journeys have, by charging people to use them at peak times!

 

[connor7777]

will be the best thing to happen in a while if any part of the line between saltney and wrexham is re doubled. 2012 is not that far, remind me to make a post about it in january

 

[merlodlliw]

will be the best thing to happen in a while if any part of the line between saltney and wrexham is re doubled. 2012 is not that far, remind me to make a post about it in january

The promise was made by the Minister, it look like a double between Saltney & Rossett, with 2 miles of single up Gresford Bank to General Station due to the single track overbridge which takes the line over the expressway.

Only real problem area is the under-bridge South of Saltney,is it wide enough for a double, otherwise we will live with a dynamic loop between both bridges.


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

opinion polls for htv(sorry i mean itv 1 wales) show that labour may well have a working majority in the assembly after may, andrew davies may well have his old job back... chester will always have stops from and to the coast as more than 25 per cent of all journeys to and from the n wales coast begin and end at chestere.

Opinion polls can be fickle, but with a National Con/Lib Govt, I would not be surprised, Plaid are putting all their money on winning a few seats in West Wales, we shall see, but we do have two votes in Wales. If Labour do win,its goodbye to Gerald Mark in its present form ,in my opinion.
As for Chester(a border station with Wales) it is indeed a major hub used by millions of pax & four tocs it will never be bypassed by North Wales trains.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

The promise was made by the Minister, it look like a double between Saltney & Rossett, with 2 miles of single up Gresford Bank to General Station due to the single track overbridge which takes the line over the expressway.

Only real problem area is the under-bridge South of Saltney,is it wide enough for a double, otherwise we will live with a dynamic loop between both bridges.


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---





Opinion polls can be fickle, but with a National Con/Lib Govt, I would not be surprised, Plaid are putting all their money on winning a few seats in West Wales, we shall see, but we do have two votes in Wales. If Labour do win,its goodbye to Gerald Mark in its present form ,in my opinion.
As for Chester(a border station with Wales) it is indeed a major hub used by millions of pax & four tocs it will never be bypassed by North Wales trains.

Bob

Was on train from Gobowen to Shrewsbury today with 2 Shropshire Councilors - that's there understanding also. No sign of the hoards traveling form Bangor to Cardiff others have reported on this forum.

IWJ has apparently according to local Torys promised the Newtown Bypass will start in 2013. That's £60 million for the roads.

 

[tirphil]

Indeed I don't think there are a huge number that travel from Bangor to Cardiff. However we know for a fact that there aren't huge hoards who want to travel from Wrexham and Shrewsbury to London. If there was Wrexham & Shropshire would still be going strong.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed I don't think there are a huge number that travel from Bangor to Cardiff. However we know for a fact that there aren't huge hoards who want to travel from Wrexham and Shrewsbury to London. If there was Wrexham & Shropshire would still be going strong.

Two different things. Some Forum members swear blind that there are lots of people traveling on Holyhead to Cardiff trains as through passengers from North to South Wales. Other forum members who travel on these trains report not having seen them.

Wrexham and Shropshire offered for various reasons a time uncompetitive product that didn't connect with Cambrian. Therefore plenty of passengers still did ATW and Virgin changing at Birmingham or drove to Chester/Crewe/Stafford and picked up quick services from there.

 

[jones_bangor]

Indeed I don't think there are a huge number that travel from Bangor to Cardiff.

Try the 06:02 or 07:07 from Bangor

or the 16:15 or 17:20 from CC north!!

You may change your view!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

will be the best thing to happen in a while if any part of the line between saltney and wrexham is re doubled. 2012 is not that far, remind me to make a post about it in january

Dubious cost-benefit in my book. When / if Labour have their BIG majority in the Senedd after May 5th, there'll be an opportunity to revisit many of these "promises". As far as I recall, the business case was written on the back of a fag packet whilst the Minister took a persuasive ride along the route in a "First Class" Inspection Saloon full of NR cronies pushed by a 37.

 

[TDK]

Try the 06:02 or 07:07 from Bangor

or the 16:15 or 17:20 from CC north!!

You may change your view!!

Yes but these are only 2 or 3 coach trains and rarely do I see any of the HHD - CDF trains full, and you are only quoting 2 peak trains each way, what it would be better to do is find out the average toatl amount of passengers per day and then divide it by the number of trains run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dubious cost-benefit in my book. When / if Labour have their BIG majority in the Senedd after May 5th, there'll be an opportunity to revisit many of these "promises". As far as I recall, the business case was written on the back of a fag packet whilst the Minister took a persuasive ride along the route in a "First Class" Inspection Saloon full of NR cronies pushed by a 37.

I still feel the doubling of the track between Saltney Junction and Rossett is a complete waste of taxpayers money, the single line isn't yet up to full capacity.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The 0510 CDF to HHD turned up today running late as a 150 - 150256, it terminated at Chester with a 3 car 175 sitting in Platform 2 for a cross platform change all of 15 people moved over. Around half of which were on board at Shrewsbury when I joined.

I had come up from Newtown with a colleague who was traveling to Cardiff we got a coffee at Shrewsbury and I saw him on the 0719 departure to Cardiff (0520 ish Holyhead) there were more people getting off than stayed aboard lucky if there 20 from North of salop heading south, of course this train would have been packed to the gunwhales departing Leominster into Hereford as its a peak commuter train for Shropshire/Hereford.

Theirs more people get off the 0514 ex Aberystwyth at Shrewsbury at 0710 and go into the town then then ride most Holyhead to Cardiff trains as through passengers.

 

[merlodlliw]

Dubious cost-benefit in my book. When / if Labour have their BIG majority in the Senedd after May 5th, there'll be an opportunity to revisit many of these "promises". As far as I recall, the business case was written on the back of a fag packet whilst the Minister took a persuasive ride along the route in a "First Class" Inspection Saloon full of NR cronies pushed by a 37.

If you refer to the line between Saltney & Wrexham, Politics will see it doubled, Wrexham will remain Labour as will Clwyd South(Ruabon/Chirk),This track improvement will occur as its written in stone & funding is ring fenced to it. Its also in the Pre manifesto already out by Lesley Griffiths Wrexham A.M.
With all due respect to many of you, you seem happy with Elite rolling stock on services, which ply, but shout foul & a waste of money on infrastructure improvements that connect The City of Chester with the largest town in North Wales, I could say the dynamic loop at Welshpool was a waste of money due to no extra services,also I could say the same of Gowerton , but I wont as they are or will be built for extras in the future and to ease pinch points , exactly the same reason for doubling the Dee/Seven line.

As for the Cardiff/Holyhead services, when I travel to Cardiff except for the
0630 , I don't see this surge heading for Cardiff either. Perhaps I am on the wrong trains to witness this movement.

As for the three car 1720 back, the majority from Cardiff got off long before it reached Wrexham, as occurred yesterday when I used it.

 

[jones_bangor]

Yes but these are only 2 or 3 coach trains and rarely do I see any of the HHD - CDF trains full, and you are only quoting 2 peak trains each way, what it would be better to do is find out the average toatl amount of passengers per day and then divide it by the number of trains run.

I would say the current frequency is about right, but with a need for an extra peak train southwards in the morning, and northwards in the evening (aka Gerald 2!).

 

[cymro inside]

as i have said before cardiff is the ninth most popular destination from bangor,also dont forget that some people also buy advances for the other hours service from bangor to bhm with a change at shrewsbury into the man-cdf,plenty of people travel from the coast to wrexham as a shopping service too.i would say that wrexham has reaped some economic benefits from the hourly service from the coast.i dont see people from warrington or manchester coming to wrexham as ashopping destination in the way that they do from flint,rhyl etc.as for nth sth services i dont see anyone calling for the liverpool to norwich service to be split at nottingham just because all the passengers on the train travelling to norwich didnt join at lime street! incidentally work is under way in the former goods yard at bangor to increase the car park by 140 spaces we look forward to further growth in travel from bangor.there will be days when there is less nth sth travel, college hols,business hols,wag not in session etc.

 

[175001]

Well said cymro_inside. I can't agree more. Bangor is such a busy place now due to the popularity of the university, and it will only get busier in the next few years so Bangor deserves the investment. Every time I go to Bangor, even with 3-car 175's, seats are in short supply!

An hourly service isn't sufficient at times. What would be a good idea, when the Llangefni plans come to a head, would be for it to connect with the Llandudno-Piccadilly service at the Junction. But Bangor deserved every penny, and I applause Ieuan Wyn Jones for securing the funding. He has done more to connect Wales than anybody else has.

 

[tbtc]

i dont see people from warrington or manchester coming to wrexham as ashopping destination in the way that they do from flint,rhyl etc

Do you see people in Wrexham finding jobs in Flint/ Rhyl? Or do you think that services to Manchester/ Liverpool would be of use to those in Wrexham looking for employment (or also to attract workers to consider moving to Wrexham to commute)?

Isn't it more important to provide links to the cities where employment is to meet passenger demand, rather than worrying about keeping train services within borders for political reasons?

i dont see anyone calling for the liverpool to norwich service to be split at nottingham just because all the passengers on the train travelling to norwich didnt join at lime street!

It's been argued several times on here that this should happen. A delayed train at Norwich means missing your slot on the ECML, means ending up very late into Liverpool. Similarly, a delay in Cardiff may mean missing your slot on the single track section at Wrexham - is it worth compounding these kind of problems for minimal through passengers (with the exception of WAG-staff on junkets and a handful of sporting events in Cardiff each year)?

For long distance routes with little "through" traffic (which are operationally complicated because of all the bottle necks) this is what happens. Look at the old Central Trains service from Grimsby to Chester via Birmingham. Or Aberystwyth - Lincoln... all chopped because nobody used them from end to end.

there will be days when there is less nth sth travel, college hols,business hols,wag not in session etc

That sounds like quite a lot of the year for nine services a day. How did Wales manage with just one train a day?

 

[merlodlliw]

I would say the current frequency is about right, but with a need for an extra peak train southwards in the morning, and northwards in the evening (aka Gerald 2!).

I have just had a look at the population of Bangor, I am surprised there is a requirement for another train to Cardiff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I applause Ieuan Wyn Jones for securing the funding. He has done more to connect Wales than anybody else has.[/QUOTE] 175001

Does you endorsement include Wagair, Valley to Rhoose at £1.6M a year, out of interest.

Bob

 

[175001]

Does you endorsement include Wagair, Valley to Rhoose at £1.6M a year, out of interest.

Has it brought the north and south faster together??? Yes, yes I do.

 

[TDK]

I would say the current frequency is about right, but with a need for an extra peak train southwards in the morning, and northwards in the evening (aka Gerald 2!).

To be honest there is a lot more need for an extra Chester to Birmingham train than an extra train to Cardiff, OK Birmingham is not in Wales but more people travel to Birmingham from Chester/Wrexham/Shrewsbury than they do to Cardiff, the main reason 50 to 70% of the people alight at Shrewsbury on many occasions is to connect to a train at Birmingham when on a Chester Cardiff train. ATW have already said they are cutting a Chester Birmingham service in favour of WAG 2 and this only proves that ATW and the WAG are not at all interested in the demand from passengers but are running this service just for their own benefits - discusting I would say.