Euston to Holyhead via Shrewsbury

[Gareth Marston]

Local media report that a group of half a dozen Tory MPs from Shropshire and Mid Wales met with Hammond today to discuss direct services to London from Shropshire. There floating the idea that Holyhead to Euston trains could run via Shrewsbury and be part of new WCML Franchise.

Report was short on detail of routing and whether these would be in addition to or replace hourly Chester to Euston service.

Anyone up for this or is it a universal raspberry from all?

 

[tbtc]

Out of interest, what would be the expected time "penalty" for going this way (compared to current service via Stafford/ Crewe)?

 

[Greenback]

I like new ideas and 'thinking outside the box' - but more detail is needed on these proposals before I decide if they are a good idea!

Would the infrastructure be able to cope with rerouting the current Holyhead trains? What about people who want to go from North Wales to Chester and Crewe (for conenctions)? There are a lot of things to consider other than just Shropshire!

 

[Welshman]

On current timings, I reckon this proposal would impose a time penalty of about an hour for through North Wales/Holyhead passengers, and as I cannot see a need for more Shrewsbury-Holyhead trains as there is currently already a 2-hourly service plus extra WAG services, then why penalise those passengers?

If this is an attempt to provide a through service to Shrewsbury and the Shrewsbury market alone does not justify it, then why not extend the service to mid Wales and Aberystwyth? The new signalling currently being commissioned should be able to cope with a few extra trains.

 

[seagull]

If it was to replace some of Chester-Euston then I can't imagine it pleasing the good denizens of Chester to a great extent, having to go via a rather slower Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton route instead of fast from Crewe to the south. That's assuming they go via Crewe which saves reversing at Chester.

If additional then yes in theory not a bad idea. I still prefer in many ways the idea of a few London services starting/finishing at Shrewsbury, but as WSR seemed to prove, there's perhaps not the demand to make that feasible. I still think there's some mileage in an Aberystwyth-London service, it being a University town and with many studying there being those from abroad who've arrived by plane into London airports.

 

[dk1]

If it was to replace some of Chester-Euston then I can't imagine it pleasing the good denizens of Chester to a great extent, having to go via a rather slower Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton route instead of fast from Crewe to the south. That's assuming they go via Crewe which saves reversing at Chester.

If additional then yes in theory not a bad idea. I still prefer in many ways the idea of a few London services starting/finishing at Shrewsbury, but as WSR seemed to prove, there's perhaps not the demand to make that feasible. I still think there's some mileage in an Aberystwyth-London service, it being a University town and with many studying there being those from abroad who've arrived by plane into London airports.

Totally agree with that mate. Chester now has a very good & very fast hourly express to Euston & slowing that down would not be good. Infact there is even talk of electrifing from Crewe & using Pendos (although i did read this was at the expense of through journeys to Holyhead).

Shrewsbury i think can at most expect a token through Voyager at peak times only &/or an ATW service from Aberystwyth. The latter i think could be quite popular.

 

[sonic2009]

Surely ATW could do something ")

if they fitted a few selected class 67 with ertms. and ran them between abersywyth and london top and tail?

or a 67 banned from cambrian?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't see the current Holyhead/Chester-Euston service being diverted via Salop and the West Mids. The time penalty would be well over an hour. Also the service seems well used at the moment, at least from Chester, and provides 50% of the Crewe-Euston service.

If more Voyagers became available (say after the new Pendolinos come in) new services could be provided, but there are probably no paths south of Birmingham.

An off-peak service to Shrewsbury could easily be provided in some hours using existing stock and WCML paths by running double units to Crewe on the Chester/Holyhead service, and splitting there to run the second unit via Whitchurch - journey time would be about 2h15m which is better than anything currently on the direct route. But this would miss out Telford which I guess is a key market. It could even run to Aberystwyth and back, ERTMS permitting, in much the same time as the other half takes from Crewe to Holyhead and back. However it doesn't solve the peak problem.

 

[merlodlliw]

Surely ATW could do something ")

if they fitted a few selected class 67 with ertms. and ran them between abersywyth and london top and tail?

or a 67 banned from cambrian?

ATW will not return to open access, its fingers got burned last time, when the ORR through out its business plan.
W/S did a feasibility study on running such a service & decided there was not the custom to run such a service.

As nice as it seems, open access Aber to London is not going to happen.Holiday traffic is only a June to Aug in any big numbers,
More frequent DMUs are more important.

I recall trains Holyhead to Euston via Birmingham, it put an hour on journey times (via Stafford), and was soon dropped.

As for Chester/Shrewsbury The old Clwyd CC paid BR £1M for a years trial in
extending a Euston/Shrewsbury UP/Down via Wrexham this was also dropped
due to excessive journey times, it was in fact just a sop to Wrexham when the track was singled.

Going back to W/S Telford New Town with its large population never took full advantage of a direct service to London at Cheap prices.

A service in my opinion Shrewsbury to London will occur, but who pays? plus Chester via Wrexham(when doubled tracked) or via Wem adds an hour to the journey from Chester.
suppose it seems strange the County town of Salop can have up to three direct trains an hour to Cardiff, but non to its Capital.
Politics will sort it out, as usual.

Bob

 

[ivanhoe]

What many people do not know is how big the potential market to Shrewsbury is. Is a direct London train an aspiration rather than a necessity. I suspect most Business People , Shrewsbury based, will go via Wolves at the moment. I am of the opinion that Shrewsbury needs to build on its current routes to its natural markets ensuring good connections at Wolves.

Shrewsbury itself is a lovely town but has no University which could help to develop services. As for diverting a Chester or Holyhead train, there would be more losers than winners. The current franchise structure ensures that the ORCATS revenue on the portion Wolves to Shrewsbury, would make it a difficult Business Case for Virgin and its successor.

 

[cle]

The Chester trains are very popular, and also Chester is hugely popular with the denizens of North Wales - it's their nearest larger city and many go there shopping etc... - there's a lot more demand than for Wrexham and certainly Shrewsbury.

Crewe is a hugely important transport hub too, and both provide North Wales - Liverpool connections, which is a massive flow.

A few Shrewsbury/Wrexham trains might be interesting (would rather ATW/Chiltern, with a Wolves stop post-EG3) but not at the expense of the Chester trains which have stimulated previously suppressed demand, and boosted the city.

 

[merlodlliw]

What many people do not know is how big the potential market to Shrewsbury is. Is a direct London train an aspiration rather than a necessity. I suspect most Business People , Shrewsbury based, will go via Wolves at the moment. I am of the opinion that Shrewsbury needs to build on its current routes to its natural markets ensuring good connections at Wolves.

Shrewsbury itself is a lovely town but has no University which could help to develop services. As for diverting a Chester or Holyhead train, there would be more losers than winners. The current franchise structure ensures that the ORCATS revenue on the portion Wolves to Shrewsbury, would make it a difficult Business Case for Virgin and its successor.

and of course populations,that will have to be taken intro account, and you can do anything with figures.

I mentioned three towns. And here I am being generous.
Shrewsbury & Aitcham 70 K
Telford 162 K (W/S never captured this market on a direct service)
Aber 30 K includes resident students of 8K,tourists
increase in numbers June to Aug

There are a lot of aspirations, MPs doing their job for their area,it will need a change to the WCML franchise, plus North Wales/ Chester pax will avoid this service,that will add another hour, & open access Shrewsbury to London wont happen.

The VT from Wrexham to London, idles in Wrexham for a couple of hours while awaiting the ATW local from Shrewsbury, perhaps this could be sent to Shrewsbury as I know paths exist Wrexham to Wolves, one is ex Wrexham at 0723, or ATW would be delighted to give up some other path.

I dont see a pendo drag between Wolves & Shrewsbury being an option,if anything it will be a Voyager, if at all.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Chester trains are very popular, and also Chester is hugely popular with the denizens of North Wales - it's their nearest larger city and many go there shopping etc... - there's a lot more demand than for Wrexham and certainly Shrewsbury.

Crewe is a hugely important transport hub too, and both provide North Wales - Liverpool connections, which is a massive flow.

A few Shrewsbury/Wrexham trains might be interesting (would rather ATW/Chiltern, with a Wolves stop post-EG3) but not at the expense of the Chester trains which have stimulated previously suppressed demand, and boosted the city.

Pax from North Wales & Chester dont go to Crewe for Liverpool,do they? do you mean on the down.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

As nice as it seems, open access Aber to London is not going to happen.Holiday traffic is only a June to Aug in any big numbers

Plus Students during the rest of the year (and, lets face it, students tend to use the railways for more journeys annually than "typical" members of the public

 

[connor7777]

time for ATW to ask for Aber to London service again.

 

[merlodlliw]

time for ATW to ask for Aber to London service again.

ATW will not get involved with open access again, no spare stock,unless some one else pays & WAG wont pay for a London service.

W/S feasibility study showed the majority of Aber students use car or are brought in by parents.

More DMUs are required for an hourly service, except where do they come from.


Bob

 

[connor7777]

Why is it all about students,

I wanted the better service to Aber so i can visit more towns a day on that line.

 

[tbtc]

W/S feasibility study showed the majority of Aber students use car or are brought in by parents

No great surprise considering the bi-hourly train service which only goes as far as Birmingham. Introduce more trains with more destinations and that will change...

 

[cle]

Bob - re: Crewe/Liverpool, was thinking airport and wasn't clear sorry. Also on occasion when Merseyrail have works on, it's another route. But Chester is the main hub (and the nearest big smoke!) for North Wales...

 

[merlodlliw]

Why is it all about students,

I wanted the better service to Aber so i can visit more towns a day on that line.

Its due to the fact almost half the population of Aber are students,well its given as 8K are residential, without this figure Aber is just a small seaside resort eight months of the year.

A more frequent DMU service is all that is required, no one is going to put up the money for anything else.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bob - re: Crewe/Liverpool, was thinking airport and wasn't clear sorry. Also on occasion when Merseyrail have works on, it's another route. But Chester is the main hub (and the nearest big smoke!) for North Wales...

Cheers


Bob

 

[175001]

Really can't see this happening. Why should the North Wales users be penalised by users miles away in England who want a service that they never used in the 1st place?!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Chester is also hub for the Wirral, remember Liverpool has only 1tph off peak to Euston - clearly does not have case for wires and DfT will be taking them down soon to find more applications for bi mode IEP! Seriously I wouldn't want Paul in Chester robbed for Peter in Telford.

WSMR had **** poor timings to London and didn't connect with any Aberystwyth trains so missed out on large slice of potential revenue pie. Its not that the market isn't there WSMR just didn't tap it properly for assorted reasons. The MP's want Shrewsbury in new WCML franchise which would mean preferential paths and a reasonable journey time.

Going back to one of Virgins spoiler ideas Euston to Shrewsbury via Nuneaton and Walsall with Voyagers?

 

[cslusarc]

I'd like to see a twice in each direction daily circular service operating EUS-BHM-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Crewe-EUS.

 

[Whistler40145]

I cannot see how diverting some Euston-Holyhead services via Wolverhampton & Salop would work?

Please correct me if I am wrong. At present, Virgin operate a 15 minute service pattern between Euston & Birmingham NS with 2 out of the 4 trains extended to Wolverhampton.

I cannot imagine there would be any extra paths between Rugby & Birmingham NS/Wolverhampton.

The other alternative is to run it via Nuneaton, Sutton Park, Walsall & Wolverhampton with a Voyager or a cascaded HST set?

Please make constructive comments.

 

[merlodlliw]

Chester is also hub for the Wirral, remember Liverpool has only 1tph off peak to Euston - clearly does not have case for wires and DfT will be taking them down soon to find more applications for bi mode IEP! Seriously I wouldn't want Paul in Chester robbed for Peter in Telford.

WSMR had **** poor timings to London and didn't connect with any Aberystwyth trains so missed out on large slice of potential revenue pie. Its not that the market isn't there WSMR just didn't tap it properly for assorted reasons. The MP's want Shrewsbury in new WCML franchise which would mean preferential paths and a reasonable journey time.

Going back to one of Virgins spoiler ideas Euston to Shrewsbury via Nuneaton and Walsall with Voyagers?

Good Morning Gareth.

Enjoying the Bws, I don't see any Chester/Londons going via Shrewsbury,as you say, it could be a bolt on in the new franchise,around the houses as been tried & failed since the 1970s with the Holyheads.If local Salop politicians can not get a route decision now with Hammond its not going to happen.

Bob

 

[The Planner]

Please correct me if I am wrong. At present, Virgin operate a 15 minute service pattern between Euston & Birmingham NS with 2 out of the 4 trains extended to Wolverhampton.

No, 3 an hour at 20 min frequencies, 1 goes on to Wolves.

I cannot imagine there would be any extra paths between Rugby & Birmingham NS/Wolverhampton.

Rugby to Cov wouldnt be an issue, after there it gets a bit hairy.

The other alternative is to run it via Nuneaton, Sutton Park, Walsall & Wolverhampton with a Voyager or a cascaded HST set?

Which was Virgins plan previously, it would have left Shrewsbury after a WSMR and still have got to Euston before the WSMR had got to Marylebone.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As we've seen with WAG2 - if it's put on for political reasons other things get sacrificed. Chester and Holyhead must be on the ball.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-mps-in-cruch-talks-over-london-rail-service/

http://www.shrewsburychronicle.com/2011/03/24/mps-join-in-bid-to-restore-rail-link/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-swww.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-12848049"]

http://www.shrewsburychronicle.com/2011/03/24/mps-join-in-bid-to-restore-rail-link/

http://http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011/03/23/shropshire-mps-in-cruch-talks-over-london-rail-service/

 

[merlodlliw]

As we've seen with WAG2 - if it's put on for political reasons other things get sacrificed. Chester and Holyhead must be on the ball.

Correct, my mates will keep an eye open for Chester, I have a feeling the Wrexham VT could be involved, however ATW would have to find stock to
run the two paths it gave up to VT, I always thought giving up these paths for spoiler reasons would come back to haunt ATW.

Time will tell, but If Lucas is involved it may well be the Wrexham/Euston VT, this voyager idles in Wrexham from just after 0500 for two hours.Suppose that would be a way of keeping it via Wrexham. But something will occur.

Bob

 

[Invincibles]

If they could wire from Crewe to Chester then it would free up a few voyagers to make the via Nuneaton route possible.

If there was a bottomless pit of money I would also look seriously at redeveloping Crewe so that there were platforms on the freight line and trains could arrive from Shrewsbury/Chester and continue to Manchester without having to interfere with paths on the WCML. Under this scheme Manchester - Crewe services would then continue to Chester (replacing the current shuttle).

Not yet sure what the extra WCML paths get used for, but I suppose there is something that could use them.

Back to the topic, Shrewsbury voyagers could extend to Aber (last one of the day and first one the following morning say) and offer something on that route. But nothing can really be done until there are spare voyagers.

Edit: For paths to Euston maybe these can operate northbound together with another voyager service and split at Nuneaton in Platform 2 or at Rugby if paths from Rugby to Nuneaton are ok. No idea how the southbound would work (perhaps Rugby can be used if you can loop there?)

Further with HS2 journeys like this become much more possible as paths on the south WCML become available and Manchester etc become served over HS2.

 

[merlodlliw]

If they could wire from Crewe to Chester then it would free up a few voyagers to make the via Nuneaton route possible.

If there was a bottomless pit of money I would also look seriously at redeveloping Crewe so that there were platforms on the freight line and trains could arrive from Shrewsbury/Chester and continue to Manchester without having to interfere with paths on the WCML. Under this scheme Manchester - Crewe services would then continue to Chester (replacing the current shuttle).

Not yet sure what the extra WCML paths get used for, but I suppose there is something that could use them.

Back to the topic, Shrewsbury voyagers could extend to Aber (last one of the day and first one the following morning say) and offer something on that route. But nothing can really be done until there are spare voyagers.

Er ERTMS says voyagers can not go to Aber, in my opinion, who would pay for it? WAG wont pay for a London Service & I am sure DFT would not move the WCML past Salop,

Bob

 

[TDK]

Out of interest, what would be the expected time "penalty" for going this way (compared to current service via Stafford/ Crewe)?

It's got to be over an hour extra
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd like to see a twice in each direction daily circular service operating EUS-BHM-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Crewe-EUS.

This is a pipe dream, it will never happen as Virgin are only interested in getting people from A to B as fast as possible and to divert a service via Shrewsbury will most likely be objected anyway by DB arriva and London Midland