The Coaliton & The Cuts

[mailman]

If there are no cuts why don’t you all come with me to the area of the country that I am proud to come from - the North East.

What is being cut is the rate of increase in spending...NOT spending itself!

People are always amazed that, say, 10,000 people work for the council in Gateshead or Stockton. Why do you think this is? Could it be that there are no other jobs available?

How do you propose to pay for these 10,000 people, who are essentially in non-productive jobs?

Tax those lucky ones working more?

Regards

Mailman

 

[Old Timer]

No, quite wrong, I checked out your profile first.

Your response does not address the questions I asked, nor does it even recognise the fact the there was a world recession between 1979 and 1982.

Your facts about Consett are of course wrong. Between 1981 and 1994 362 small busnesses started in Consett with Government support. Although the Steelworks closed in the mid-1980s, by 1988 the value of houses had risen by a third due to demand. During the recession of the early 1990s house prices did not fall in Consett (source : The Independent). Hardly a town dying on its knees then.

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Consett steelworks actually closed on 12th September 1980.

Yes. Thank you - don't quite know how it came out as mid 1980s - should have read mid 1980 as you rightly point out. I did not have the actual date last night.

My points remain the same though.

 

[jon0844]

Anyone want to waste time commenting on this? Someone posted it on Facebook so you know it's going to be good!

http://www.johannhari.com/2011/03/29/the-biggest-lie-in-british-politics

So there we have it. We need to keep spending and spending!!

 

[ainsworth74]

We were bust when we pioneered the Industrial Revolution. We were bust when we ruled a quarter of the world. We were bust when we beat the Nazis. We were bust when we built the NHS.

Why yes, yes we were bust when we defeated Germany. It took the better part of 5-6 years for us to get back on our feet economically after WW2 (rationing for instance didn't end completely until 1954!) and if it hadn't been for the US Marshall Plan we would probably have not have recovered for decades later than that!

So in summary I gave up at that point. Sorry, I'm weak and whilst I have time to waste I don't have that much

 

[HST Power]

Why yes, yes we were bust when we defeated Germany. It took the better part of 5-6 years for us to get back on our feet economically after WW2 (rationing for instance didn't end completely until 1954!) and if it hadn't been for the US Marshall Plan we would probably have not have recovered for decades later than that!

So in summary I gave up at that point. Sorry, I'm weak and whilst I have time to waste I don't have that much

This is a good point. Just because we're low on cash does not mean the Government can't create new projects and ideas.

 

[CNX]

Yes. Thank you - don't quite know how it came out as mid 1980s - should have read mid 1980 as you rightly point out. I did not have the actual date last night.

My points remain the same though.

Yes, fair enough. For me, the dates are very vivid. No need for Wikipedia on this subject.

I have a sad memory of photographing the very last Redcar-Consett ore train just 2 days before. It returned a few days later, and only partly discharged.

 

[Old Timer]

I have a sad memory of photographing the very last Redcar-Consett ore train just 2 days before. It returned a few days later, and only partly discharged.

Yes, the 80s were in many cases bad times, hit by a world recession, at the same time as the IMF loans were due to be paid, and the IMF insisting on certain economic measures being taken.

Add to that the various Politically inspired Strikes which achieved nothing other than to drive traffic away from the Railway.

I remember watching reduced levels of traffic after each strike, as the "brothers" of the T&GWU had broken the picket lines and insisted on long term Contracts as a quid pro quo for moving the traffic during the strikes.

That is why Trade Unionism never works - The TGWU destroyed the Steelworkers and the Railwaymens jobs by moving traffic during the strikes, yet no one had the balls to throw the TGWU out of the TUC for that.

As a TU rep I tried to move a censure motion against the TGWU but they were in effect the TUC, so it came to naught. So much for the unity of the working man, eh ?

 

[CNX]

Yes, the 80s were in many cases bad times, hit by a world recession, at the same time as the IMF loans were due to be paid, and the IMF insisting on certain economic measures being taken.

Add to that the various Politically inspired Strikes which achieved nothing other than to drive traffic away from the Railway.

I remember watching reduced levels of traffic after each strike, as the "brothers" of the T&GWU had broken the picket lines and insisted on long term Contracts as a quid pro quo for moving the traffic during the strikes.

That is why Trade Unionism never works - The TGWU destroyed the Steelworkers and the Railwaymens jobs by moving traffic during the strikes, yet no one had the balls to throw the TGWU out of the TUC for that.

As a TU rep I tried to move a censure motion against the TGWU but they were in effect the TUC, so it came to naught. So much for the unity of the working man, eh ?

It gets worse, so, if you a staunch trades unionist, look away now. I have a total hatred for the NUR/RMT; read on to see just one reason why.

This was told to me by one of the Speedlink Traffic Controllers who I spoke with regularly as part of my job, and knew well. The year was about 1989.

Just before the demise of Speedlink, the Stranraer area rep of what was then the NUR, and a Speedlink commercial rep, were chatting away while watching lorries being driven onto one of the ro-ro ferries bound for Larne. Among them were several loaded with semi finished steel.

NUR Rep. 'Where's that steel traffic come from?'
Speeedlink Rep. 'Scunthorpe'
NUR Rep. Didn't it previously come by rail?
Speedlink Rep 'Yes'
NUR Rep. 'Then why did we lose it to road?'
Speedlink Rep 'Because your union blacked it in support of the striking miners, and we've lost it for good'

Even now, 20 odd years later, it still makes my blood boil to remember those words. The railway industry didn't need external enemies. The NUR was the enemy within.

 

[mailman]

DarloRich,

Im still waiting for your answer. how do you propose to pay for those 10,000 non-productive public sector jobs you think are so valuable to the country?

Tax everyone else more?

Mailman

 

[LE Greys]

Close off tax loopholes and abolish tax credits allowances. That would be a lot easier to administer and fairer for everyone - you could do your tax return on the back of an envelope, and HMRC could check them more easily. It might even be possible to cut taxes at the low end (say by bringing the 10p rate back) because of the savings this would make.

 

[HST Power]

Close off tax loopholes and abolish tax credits allowances.

They are cutting child tax credits shortly. And under new legislation, if you refuse to work yet appear perfectly capable, you lose your benefits for three months.

 

[SS4]

Great. How are they going to define "perfectly capable"? Given the appeal rate on ESA they've not managed it since October 2008 (Labour's fault this one but it's not overturned). I mention ESA because most of them are "encouraged" not to appeal and go onto JSA.

Even for those on JSA it's not for want of trying, it's because the private sector simply doesn't care about staff. How are they going to define a job, would I be expected to take a minimum wage job in Wolverhampton or Lichfield, the latter poor for public transport. The Tories have long sought to vilify benefit claimants, especially since it's very unlikely they've ever had to live on benefits.

Public sector jobs are needed to form a balance between the public sector and private sector, to try and keep some people in work. If you decapitate the public service then who's going to help the unemployed back into work? Staff the hospitals? Teach children and adults? Train the aforementioned unemployed to get job skills? Run transport? Especially when they're not profitable. Citing "non-jobs" is far too easy. Exactly what do you mean by non-jobs and how do you propose to get rid of them? Even those in what you call non-jobs there are still people with families to feed, rightly protected by a trade union and employment law.

cutting non-productive jobs is like cutting government red-tape: deliberately vague so nobody really knows if it was successful

 

[HST Power]

Great. How are they going to define "perfectly capable"? Given the appeal rate on ESA they've not managed it since October 2008 (Labour's fault this one but it's not overturned). I mention ESA because most of them are "encouraged" not to appeal and go onto JSA.

I imagine you'd get tested, like you do if you want to recieve incapacity benefit. They'll also probably do a check on your medical records, to make sure your not in the office for something like a stubbed toe...

 

[SS4]

I imagine you'd get tested, like you do if you want to recieve incapacity benefit. They'll also probably do a check on your medical records, to make sure your not in the office for something like a stubbed toe...

You do, it's the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) (a medical) that is suspicious (and it's outsourced to atos healthcare) since a large number are judged to have failed but get the decision overturned on appeal. I don't have any numbers to hand but when I worked for the DWP I heard 40% for successful appeals

 

[HST Power]

You do, it's the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) (a medical) that is suspicious (and it's outsourced to atos healthcare) since a large number are judged to have failed but get the decision overturned on appeal. I don't have any numbers to hand but when I worked for the DWP I heard 40% for successful appeals

I had a brief stint working for the DWP. A very, very brief stint....

 

[LE Greys]

They are cutting child tax credits shortly. And under new legislation, if you refuse to work yet appear perfectly capable, you lose your benefits for three months.

I'd transfer that to Child Benefit and abolish the tax credit entirely. Easier to administer and everyone gets it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You do, it's the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) (a medical) that is suspicious (and it's outsourced to atos healthcare) since a large number are judged to have failed but get the decision overturned on appeal. I don't have any numbers to hand but when I worked for the DWP I heard 40% for successful appeals

I actually went through that recently, and have since been placed on the work preparation group of ESA. Hasn't stopped me writing, but it should help in gaining new skills and so on. The assessment was in Luton.

 

[HST Power]

I'd transfer that to Child Benefit and abolish the tax credit entirely. Easier to administer and everyone gets it.

Are you saying you would add the amount from tax credits onto the child benefit?

 

[LE Greys]

Are you saying you would add the amount from tax credits onto the child benefit?

While abolishing tax credits. You give with one hand and take away with the other. It might not work out quite like that, but the idea is that nobody loses out when tax credits are abolished. Admittedly, reintroducing the 10p rate might be counted into the equation as well. I'm not an economist, but I do know that systems get more wasteful as they get more complicated.

As I've said before, if I was running the system, people would be able to do their tax returns on the back of an envelope.

 

[HST Power]

But I do know that systems get more wasteful as they get more complicated.

As I've said before, if I was running the system, people would be able to do their tax returns on the back of an envelope.

Absolutely! So many systems in the UK now are a complete joke. The form filling and pen pushing is crumbling them to pieces, to a point where the companies employees don't even know what they are doing anymore.
I was speaking to my employer about this on the train home. We both agreed that the Goverments slicing of the red tape on businesses has done signifcant good. Less form's, more doing! However, there is still work to be done. The Home Office lost hundreds of records in their system, and it is clearly evident that systems become stale as the process becomes more complex.

 

[Old Timer]

....Even for those on JSA it's not for want of trying, it's because the private sector simply doesn't care about staff.

And you know this to be true do you ?

 

[HST Power]

I don't think that's true at all. Some of the best companies I have worked with are run in the Private Sector.

 

[313103]

I don't think that's true at all. Some of the best companies I have worked with are run in the Private Sector.

Well i have only worked in the Rail industry. I started on the railways in 1980 and i enjoyed the job i was doing we at least had a somewhat caring Management structure. However by the time BR were shaping up to privatisation the railway industry started to employ Management graduate trainees, these people were trained in just Management and not on the ground. By far the biggest set of Management trainees were Accountants.

When the railways went private a lot of existing Managers left the industry and new ones were employed. One that was employed in my company had been so successful in closing down the British Gas showrooms (remember them) that he managed to get rid of his own job in the process. His method of Managing was to antagonise and divide the workforce, the Managers that have come under his wing were taught the same attitude, you only have to look around the companies that have industrial relation problems, find out who the managers are and it will take you back to this particular company.

When that company was split the Managers had a fresh and different outlook and so industrial relations have improved, and it is at the moment not a bad company to work for. The only issue i have with Managers today is the way how Managers go round and round, when one company dispenses with them we find then in another company! Nepotism in this grade is still rife.

So all in all i have found Good Managers when we were in the Nationalised sector, and i have found both Good and Bad Managers now we are in the Private sector. Pretty even some would say.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There cutting too much too soon and with too little thought. If labour had stayed we would have cuts but what they were doing pre election seamed to me sensible. I personally am an unhappy voter as went libdem, only to wake up the following monday to find cleggy boy climbing out from between david camerons determinedly upper middle class bedsheets.

Living in Edinburgh, we have another election looming and i'm without a doubt voting snp. I like what they have done since 07 with the acception of there efforts to tax responsible drinkers and feel they can achieve more next time with a stronger majoritty to boot. I'm not an independence supporter as dont feel it would work but otherwise they seam to be living the lives of the populations majoritty, something much of the westminster front bench should try.

Life for those on low incomes, those with disabilitties and those who are unemployed, boxes which myself, my partner, her familly and a lot of friends tick is not easy under the current administration in London and particularly in the case of the jobless there is a lot of tarring with the same brush going on - the majoritty of unemployed foalk are trying there best but this is not acknoladged at all.

Equally the tory faithful, i.e those with the money are down south, a fact born out by scotlands 1 tory mp who represents a remote yet popular retirement area. This, and the fact that the torys scottish leader is to my mind a truly obnoxious and impolite individual gives them i feel little chance here, esp as many of the national cuts plus the reduction in scottish government funding have hit us hard!

I'm whats known as a floating votor and by the looks of it wil continue to be but one things for sure. All the things that get cut are the vital ones, everything that wasnt previously privatised before 97 is being so treated and whoever does it aint my friend. In 4 years, i fear, we wil be ruined while the fat cats and much of the cabinet will have packed on the pounds. Clegg lost the libdems a big chance here, a chance, in future years when the party is stronger, to govan itself and that woant ever now be given back as they will be remembered as the party who binned its entire manifesto overnight.

 

[HST Power]

There cutting too much too soon and with too little thought. If labour had stayed we would have cuts but what they were doing pre election seamed to me sensible.

I'm sorry Blindtraveller but you've gone wrong there.

The cuts we are experiencing cannot be put on hold. If you or I were to take a loan from the bank, we have to pay it back as soon as possible. Otherwise, the debt racks up, and we end up living in a cardboard box outside the dry cleaners.
It's the same for our present government. If they do not make these cuts quickly, the mess is going to become about fifty times worse. This defecit is enormous, and we cannot escape it. No matter who is in power, there will be cuts. The number one priority for this country has to be sorting out the economy. Otherwise, future generations are doomed and businesses are down the toilet.

A few days ago, Harriet Harman was asked about what cuts LABOUR would make if they were in power. She FAILED to name a SINGLE one! She simply said they would 'consolidate back room functions.' I think a six year old could probably tell that means absolutely NOTHING!
At least the Conservatives have been honest about the mess we are in. Unlike our previous government, they've set about doing the job of clearing it up.

Miliband and Ed Balls have admitted (four years bloody late, if you don't mind me saying so) that Labour were the ones who put the country down the pan. David Cameron is clearing up after them.
Miliband himself has given us NO policies whatsoever. Of the £50 billion of coalition saving proposals, Labour support just £1 billion of them.
The last time I checked my garden, the trees were not growing money. Therefore, unless Miliband has a magic wand, he better start telling us where he will find the money to fix our economy and what he is going to do with it!

Brown didn't know what to do for the country. Harman doesn't know what to do for the country. Balls doesn't know what to do for the country. Miliband doesn't know what to do for the country.

Labour running the country? Somebody please pass me the sick bucket!

 

[Oswyntail]

There cutting ...with too little thought....

Again this is something of an opposition myth. Since Cameron took over the party, the Conservatives had been preparing their programmes in all areas, learning the job, to the extent that some departments saw more of the relevant Shadow Ministers than their supposed masters. Sure, they were taken aback by the scale of the financial black hole - exact figures were not revealed until after the election - but they were in a far better position to work out quickly what to do than Labour, who were too busy putting their hands over their ears and going "LALALA" - and still are.

 

[HST Power]

Again this is something of an opposition myth. Since Cameron took over the party, the Conservatives had been preparing their programmes in all areas, learning the job, to the extent that some departments saw more of the relevant Shadow Ministers than their supposed masters. Sure, they were taken aback by the scale of the financial black hole - exact figures were not revealed until after the election - but they were in a far better position to work out quickly what to do than Labour, who were too busy putting their hands over their ears and going "LALALA" - and still are.

Thank you very much for backing me up on that!

 

[Blindtraveler]

as i say, just expressing my own views. Have to agree though Re brown, never had faith in him. Miliband would have been good if leading before but now cannot shine and yes, now, 10 months on the opposition doesnt look such a pritty site. the best thing here is we can all debate and have our own views without causing offence which hope I havent.

 

[HST Power]

Don't talk rubbish! You haven't caused any offence at all! I created this thread for the excact reason you just said-so we could have all have a debate!
Now you're making me feel guilty!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Don't talk rubbish! You haven't caused any offence at all! I created this thread for the excact reason you just said-so we could have all have a debate!
Now you're making me feel guilty!

wel dont, just saying it as there seams tìs weekend to be a lot o bickering on other threads and people getting toooo serius. Just my personal disclaimer. No need to feel bad, we clearly both enjoy a cracking debate.

 

[HST Power]

That's the world of forums for you!