Pathing Capacity on the Southern WCML

[Bartsimho]

I'm trying to find if there are available 125mph paths into Euston and from how close to Euston they exist (Although it looks like they have to be 110mph into Euston looking at the line speed).

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/wcml-capacity-report-2020.pdf

I found this report but it's pre-covid so the timetable has changed since then with a re-organisation of services with no more GC to Blackpool North especially at 11:33 and 12:33.

From what I can gather there is a minimum of a 3 minute headway and a desire to have no more than 4 minimum headways in a row although the DC lines complicate things as they take a headway but only as far as Camden Junction (I guess freeing up some resilience beyond the junction and only on the Slows as well).

I think I could see a path with a buffer between the xx:56 to Birmingham New Street and the xx:02 at xx:59. The services on the fasts around that time are the xx:46 to Crewe, xx:53 to Manchester Piccadilly, xx:56 to Birmingham New Street, xx:02 to Chester and the xx:09 to Milton Keynes Central.

Looking at arrivals for this departure path with a turning time of 15 minutes I could see a path in between xx:44 and xx:46 with the 3 minutes headway.

Although if there is some more proper analysis that I can't find it would be helpful.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm trying to find if there are available 125mph paths into Euston and from how close to Euston they exist

How far away from Euston are you hoping they exist? Does there need to be a corresponding path in the up direction?

xx56 is a 110mph path with a crossing move at Ledburn Junction, which prevents xx59 being a clear 125mph path.

 

[The Planner]

Looking at arrivals for this departure path with a turning time of 15 minutes I could see a path in between xx:44 and xx:46 with the 3 minutes headway.

Although if there is some more proper analysis that I can't find it would be helpful.

Indeed you can, as that is the second northbound Liverpool at xx.43

 

[Bartsimho]

How far away from Euston are you hoping they exist? Does there need to be a corresponding path in the up direction?

xx56 is a 110mph path with a crossing move at Ledburn Junction, which prevents xx59 being a clear 125mph path.

I was hoping to find one to Handslope Junction to swing up to Northampton although looking at the line speed the 110mph and the 125mph paths appear to be the same up to this point as the max speed is 110.

Indeed you can, as that is the second northbound Liverpool at xx.43

So could there be an arrival at that time?

 

[The Planner]

So could there be an arrival at that time?

No, as the up WMT Birmingham fast that crosses over to the fast at Ledburn at xx.20 behind the Manchester doesn't allow it.

 

[Manutd1999]

A quick look on Realtimetrains suggests the off-peak fast line departures from Euston look something like this, although not all paths are used every hour:

xx02 - Stafford, Crewe, Chester
xx10 - Birmingham (non-stop to Coventry)
xx13 - Nuneaton, Manchester via Stoke
xx16 - Milton Keynes, Rugby, Birmingham, onwards to Scotland
xx23 - LNR to Leighton Buzzard then onto the slow lines
xx30 - Warrington, onwards to Glasgow
xx33 - Stafford, Crewe, Manchester
xx40 - Birmingham (non-stop to Coventry)
xx43 - Milton Keynes, Crewe, Liverpool
xx46 - LNR to Milton Keynes, Rugby, then onto the slow lines
xx53 - Milton Keynes, Rugby, Manchester via Stoke
xx56 - LNR to Leighton Buzzard then onto the slow lines

There is also a path at xx07 which is used for the 1tpd Blackpool service via the Trent Valley and has (possibly?) been earmarked for the 2nd hourly Liverpool service.

Apart from that, there isn't much spare capacity. There may be gaps at xx36 and xx19, but the stopping pattern would be constrained.

 

[The Planner]

Performance and resilience will drop off a cliff if you try and cram more in.

 

[MotCO]

Is the OP looking for paths into London or away from London?

Also, would there be any free platforms at Euston?

 

[JonathanH]

Is the OP looking for paths into London or away from London?

Both presumably. They implied that they are trying to find a way of running an hourly fast service from London to Northampton, crossing at Hanslope.

 

[Boodiggy]

Won’t be easy crossing at Hanslope today ☹️

 

[Whistler40145]

A quick look on Realtimetrains suggests the off-peak fast line departures from Euston look something like this, although not all paths are used every hour:

xx02 - Stafford, Crewe, Chester
xx10 - Birmingham (non-stop to Coventry)
xx13 - Nuneaton, Manchester via Stoke
xx16 - Milton Keynes, Rugby, Birmingham, onwards to Scotland
xx23 - LNER to Leighton Buzzard then onto the slow lines
xx30 - Warrington, onwards to Glasgow
xx33 - Stafford, Crewe, Manchester
xx40 - Birmingham (non-stop to Coventry)
xx43 - Milton Keynes, Crewe, Liverpool
xx46 - LNER to Milton Keynes, Rugby, then onto the slow lines
xx53 - Milton Keynes, Rugby, Manchester via Stoke
xx56 - LNER to Leighton Buzzard then onto the slow lines

There is also a path at xx07 which is used for the 1tpd Blackpool service via the Trent Valley and has (possibly?) been earmarked for the 2nd hourly Liverpool service.

Apart from that, there isn't much spare capacity. There may be gaps at xx36 and xx19, but the stopping pattern would be constrained.

Since when have LNER served Leighton Buzzard?

 

[Nova1]

Since when have LNER served Leighton Buzzard?

Think they meant LNWR

 

[Whistler40145]

Think they meant LNWR

Wasn’t trying to sound flippant

 

[Manutd1999]

LNR actually, but you get the idea

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Both presumably. They implied that they are trying to find a way of running an hourly fast service from London to Northampton, crossing at Hanslope.

I doubt if DfT/LNR have any plans to run a 125mph service to Northampton, at least until HS2 opens.
If there was a path (each way) it would surely be used for a longer-distance service (eg Preston/Liverpool)?
LNR won't become a 125mph operator either, given the economics of operating services with 390s or 80x.

 

[Bartsimho]

I doubt if DfT/LNR have any plans to run a 125mph service to Northampton, at least until HS2 opens.
If there was a path (each way) it would surely be used for a longer-distance service (eg Preston/Liverpool)?
LNR won't become a 125mph operator either, given the economics of operating services with 390s or 80x.

I was thinking something more speculative but without even the possibility of a path it kills it before anything happens. Like Fast to Northampton then Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street (Maybe Milton Keynes) rather than the current stopping all the way to Northampton and into Birmingham.

 

[james_the_xv]

I was thinking something more speculative but without even the possibility of a path it kills it before anything happens. Like Fast to Northampton then Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street (Maybe Milton Keynes) rather than the current stopping all the way to Northampton and into Birmingham.

I seem to recall a semi-fast LNR/LM service a few years back. Skipped Berkswell, Canley, Long Buckby iirc but not sure if it ran fast to Euston from MK. That's probably the closest that's happened and I don't think you'll be able to fit another path either on the WCML or through the Coventry Corridor

 

[Hadders]

ISTR that pre-covid there was an hourly off-peak train from Euston to Northampton taking 46 minutes. Called at Milton Keynes only.

Fastest I can see these days is 55 minutes, the majority are 59mins or 1h02 which is pretty poor really.

 

[Bartsimho]

I seem to recall a semi-fast LNR/LM service a few years back. Skipped Berkswell, Canley, Long Buckby iirc but not sure if it ran fast to Euston from MK. That's probably the closest that's happened and I don't think you'll be able to fit another path either on the WCML or through the Coventry Corridor

All I can think of is how does Long Buckby justify a direct London service beyond pathing constraints towards Birmingham or Railheading from Daventry but that could be replaced with Railheading to Northampton as it's a larger place and the faster service would probably keep it quicker.

Running a Northampton to Rugby Shuttle would then be an option and I think it would still be used.

 

[zwk500]

All I can think of is how does Long Buckby justify a direct London service beyond pathing constraints towards Birmingham or Railheading from Daventry but that could be replaced with Railheading to Northampton as it's a larger place and the faster service would probably keep it quicker.

Long Buckby is a surprisingly big place for what it is, and railheading to there is much much easier than trying to railhead into Northampton, which is busy enough with it's own railheaders as well as having a fairly awkward road network and limited parking.

Running a Northampton to Rugby Shuttle would then be an option and I think it would still be used.

This would be a bad use of resources and capacity.