Class 180 Adelantes leaving EMR

[The Middle]

Good to see a common sense approach being taken by EMR to bring them back out for some crowd busting

 

[Duncan-231192]

There is an inspection and the returning TOC has to pay for any shortcomings, unless the ROSCO waives the charges.

I didn’t think the HT units were returned in that bad a state. There was a discussion about the corrosion, which has been evident for a few years now.

I used the 180 with Hull Trains all the time. They had long been held together with proverbial spit and chewing gum, and more than a little hope. They were absolutely wrecked inside and out when they left Hull. You used to see them at Hull sidings with the fitter onboard all night, desperately trying to get the set to work well enough to get to London even with an engine or two out. Corrosion was obvious even to the casual observer let alone an eagle eyes engineer like myself.

 

[Wolfie]

Not quite dead yet! Apparently being brought back out on Monday to help shift the Wednesday and Barnsley fans

What have the poor Yorkies done to deserve that? Hope that they actually get to the game! Given how unreliable the "Ronson's" are that isn't a given.....

 

[gabrielhj07]

Good to see a common sense approach being taken by EMR to bring them back out for some crowd busting

When do they go off lease? I presume too soon for even more common sense to be applied to the Skegness trains.

 

[Duncan-231192]

Do we know if GC are chasing any additional paths, or have sufficient paths to run more services? Or is this just to double up their diagrams?

GC can barely run the services they have let alone apply for more. A few, even more clapped out 180's from EMR aren't going to help them.

Grand Central's operating license is up for renewal in December 2026. Now I see one of two thing happening. Most likely, DB will refuse to finance GC further, and Grand Central will dissappear in December 2026, and they'll simply carry on and rag the 180's to pieces until then. Very, very unlikely is that DB applies to extend their license this year, and orders bi-mode 80X's giving a 3 year lead time to the December 2026 timetable change.

I think the former is far more likely. I get the definite impression that DB wants Arriva out of open access. GC is just a moneypit to DB. They'll carry on with XC because they get government subsidies there, but they'll continue to contract XC services onto the core. Perhaps even divest XC regional services in a year or two.

 

[MCR247]

GC can barely run the services they have let alone apply for more. A few, even more clapped out 180's from EMR aren't going to help them.

Grand Central's operating license is up for renewal in December 2026. Now I see one of two thing happening. Most likely, DB will refuse to finance GC further, and Grand Central will dissappear in December 2026, and they'll simply carry on and rag the 180's to pieces until then. Very, very unlikely is that DB applies to extend their license this year, and orders bi-mode 80X's giving a 3 year lead time to the December 2026 timetable change.

I think the former is far more likely. I get the definite impression that DB wants Arriva out of open access. GC is just a moneypit to DB. They'll carry on with XC because they get government subsidies there, but they'll continue to contract XC services onto the core. Perhaps even divest XC regional services in a year or two.

Off topic for this thread but it has been reported elsewhere on the forum that GC will be taking 10x221

 

[fgwrich]

GC can barely run the services they have let alone apply for more. A few, even more clapped out 180's from EMR aren't going to help them.

Grand Central's operating license is up for renewal in December 2026. Now I see one of two thing happening. Most likely, DB will refuse to finance GC further, and Grand Central will dissappear in December 2026, and they'll simply carry on and rag the 180's to pieces until then. Very, very unlikely is that DB applies to extend their license this year, and orders bi-mode 80X's giving a 3 year lead time to the December 2026 timetable change.

I think the former is far more likely. I get the definite impression that DB wants Arriva out of open access. GC is just a moneypit to DB. They'll carry on with XC because they get government subsidies there, but they'll continue to contract XC services onto the core. Perhaps even divest XC regional services in a year or two.

Off topic for this thread but it has been reported elsewhere on the forum that GC will be taking 10x221

Indeed, I think you've missed this thread:

Class 221 for Grand Central

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #27 originally in this thread. 221143 is getting an exam and other maintenance work performed. 10 units in total are set to transfer to GC after refresh and rebranding. That is the ROSCO's own information.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Driver068]

Grand Central's operating license is up for renewal in December 2026. Now I see one of two thing happening. Most likely, DB will refuse to finance GC further, and Grand Central will dissappear in December 2026, and they'll simply carry on and rag the 180's to pieces until then. Very, very unlikely is that DB applies to extend their license this year, and orders bi-mode 80X's giving a 3 year lead time to the December 2026 timetable change.

is this personal opinion from someone whos against OAO or is there any factual evidence to back up your 2 so called opinions. No one knows where GC will end up in the comming years nor any other TOC be that matter. GC are currently doing better in leisure travel in particular on weekends. Better that LNER, XC are currently struggling to get back to pre pandemic levels come an article i read a few months ago.
Remember DB are actively seeking to sell Arriva. For an OAO to disappear, in my opinion, would have massive repercussions for both communities and in a financial capacity. I disagree that GC is here on day then gone another given the fallout and lack of substance in your comment. Given the fact the risk that poses to job losses for a wide range of traincrew so id like to think many would hope that this does not happen. Im more than happy to keep my gob shut unless you can provide and information thats substancial and not just an opinion which are totally unfounded!!!
In regards to 180s - GC are activly looking to address the issues of 180s by alternative rolling stock to free up the timetable in order to carry out further repairs. GC are defiantly NOT raging 180s to the end then ceasing to exist.

I think the former is far more likely. I get the definite impression that DB wants Arriva out of open access. GC is just a moneypit to DB. They'll carry on with XC because they get government subsidies there, but they'll continue to contract XC services onto the core. Perhaps even divest XC regional services in a year or two.

Impression to how, please elaborate. DB, as mentioned are seeking to sell Arriva where Arriva are running GC to a certain degree. Money pit that may well be especially in terms of the cost of the maintenance of the 180s however, as mentioned the income they have made post pandemic is at the top of many TOCs in the UK.

Please feel free to post any substantial information that may back up your claims.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Please feel free to post any substantial information that may back up your claims.

On that subject, when did DB announce its intention to sell Arriva?

 

[Doomotron]

On that subject, when did DB announce its intention to sell Arriva?

Here.

 

[Driver068]

Deutsche Bahn renews plans to offload Arriva

Arriva is up for sale after current owner Deutsche Bahn renewed plans to offload the bus and train operator. The German state rail operator had looked to...

www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk

Plenty of information if searched on the internet also.

 

[357]

Grand Central's operating license is up for renewal in December 2026. Now I see one of two thing happening. Most likely, DB will refuse to finance GC further, and Grand Central will dissappear in December 2026, and they'll simply carry on and rag the 180's to pieces until then. Very, very unlikely is that DB applies to extend their license this year, and orders bi-mode 80X's giving a 3 year lead time to the December 2026 timetable change.

I think the former is far more likely. I get the definite impression that DB wants Arriva out of open access. GC is just a moneypit to DB. They'll carry on with XC because they get government subsidies there, but they'll continue to contract XC services onto the core. Perhaps even divest XC regional services in a year or two.

Surely if the company wasn't making any money, then they wouldn't need to wait for the ops licence renewal you speak of to close down?

Did Wrexham & Shropshire have to wait until their licence/track access was up for renewal?

If GC didn't make money then surely the logical thing to do would have been to never bring the company back after COVID?

The fact that they did, says to me that the company is profitable. I've never been on an empty GC train and I use them pretty often.

 

[Suraggu]

Surely if the company wasn't making any money, then they wouldn't need to wait for the ops licence renewal you speak of to close down?

Did Wrexham & Shropshire have to wait until their licence/track access was up for renewal?

If GC didn't make money then surely the logical thing to do would have been to never bring the company back after COVID?

The fact that they did, says to me that the company is profitable. I've never been on an empty GC train and I use them pretty often.

WSMR was certainly pulled before track access agreement was up.

Arriva have always been committed to GC and it can make them money. GC taking on 221's ex AWC shows they are willing to find a suitable replacement even if there current licence expires in 2026.

 

[357]

WSMR was certainly pulled before track access agreement was up.

Arriva have always been committed to GC and it can make them money. GC taking on 221's ex AWC shows they are willing to find a suitable replacement even if there current licence expires in 2026.

Indeed. I believe they need to renew it every ten years so have already gone through the process once!

 

[gabrielhj07]

Here.

Thanks

 

[TheWalrus]

Anyone know what is to become of the 180s now they’ve been withdrawn by EMR and looks like the GC ones are to be replaced by AWC 221s? I highly doubt it but Maybe XC to provide some extra capacity for now or maybe wishful thinking as we could do with the capacity?

 

[MCR247]

Anyone know what is to become of the 180s now they’ve been withdrawn by EMR and looks like the GC ones are to be replaced by AWC 221s? I highly doubt it but Maybe XC to provide some extra capacity for now or maybe wishful thinking as we could do with the capacity?

That’s probably best for a speculative thread, but realistically why would the government fund XC taking on 180s when it is reducing the HST diagrams at the same time? Seems unlikely

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anyone know what is to become of the 180s now they’ve been withdrawn by EMR and looks like the GC ones are to be replaced by AWC 221s? I highly doubt it but Maybe XC to provide some extra capacity for now or maybe wishful thinking as we could do with the capacity?

I suspect the answer will involve Wilkinson Sword or Gillette...

 

[Wolfie]

I suspect the answer will involve Wilkinson Sword or Gillette...

Unreliable, prone to catching fire and allegedly suffering badly from corrosion....

Stripped of anything useful, like the engines, and then scrapped methinks....

 

[Wyrleybart]

That’s probably best for a speculative thread, but realistically why would the government fund XC taking on 180s when it is reducing the HST diagrams at the same time? Seems unlikely

The DfT signals are that the franchised railway is reducing capacity so I am guessing that if DfT wanted to allow XC to increase capacity they would have authorised the lease of 221142 and 221143 with tilt removal.

DfT certainly would not expect to have XC train hundreds of staff on obsolete and unreliable 180s which are only really fit for the knackers yard.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Meanwhile, today’s first extra from Sheffield to London arrived early into StP, with realtimetrains indicating a 1h53 nonstop journey time:

Realtime Trains | 1Z09 0800 Sheffield to St Pancras International | 29/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z09 0800 departure from Sheffield to St Pancras International on 29/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[TheWalrus]

That’s probably best for a speculative thread, but realistically why would the government fund XC taking on 180s when it is reducing the HST diagrams at the same time? Seems unlikely

Like I say it’s possible but highly unlikely. Should just keep the HSTs as DaFT obviously don’t know or care about how dire XC capacity is!

I did however read a comment somewhere that they had a home to go to so was wondering if this was the case and if so did anyone know where?

 

[driverd]

Based on what I've heard from people who would know (within the relevant companies), the previous plan was for GC to take them, to cover for the shortage of working 180s. From a leasing perspective it also makes sense (as the leasing company, a cheap lease to GC makes more sense than a microfleet of 4 units sitting around, costing you money and with no realistic prospect of being leased to anyone else).

Since the 221 plan has come into the fray, however, I don't know and haven't heard of anything further. I too suspect scrap.

 

[BJames]

3 of the 4 180s out today - one of them is not on the extra diagrams - e.g. 180110 is on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G69912/2023-05-29/detailed#allox_id=0 and https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G69847/2023-05-29/detailed

It seems like there are a few cancellations due to faults on 222s today according to EMRs status checker.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

3 of the 4 180s out today - one of them is not on the extra diagrams - e.g. 180110 is on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G69912/2023-05-29/detailed#allox_id=0 and https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G69847/2023-05-29/detailed

It seems like there are a few cancellations due to faults on 222s today according to EMRs status checker.

Seen it mentioned elsewhere that an EMR unit was left in a bit of a sorry state by Sheffield Wednesday fans this morning, don't know if it was a 180 or a 222 though.

 

[D365]

It seems like there are a few cancellations due to faults on 222s today according to EMRs status checker.

How the tables have turned

 

[DoubleO]

GC can barely run the services they have let alone apply for more. A few, even more clapped out 180's from EMR aren't going to help them.

Grand Central's operating license is up for renewal in December 2026. Now I see one of two thing happening. Most likely, DB will refuse to finance GC further, and Grand Central will dissappear in December 2026, and they'll simply carry on and rag the 180's to pieces until then. Very, very unlikely is that DB applies to extend their license this year, and orders bi-mode 80X's giving a 3 year lead time to the December 2026 timetable change.

I think the former is far more likely. I get the definite impression that DB wants Arriva out of open access. GC is just a moneypit to DB. They'll carry on with XC because they get government subsidies there, but they'll continue to contract XC services onto the core. Perhaps even divest XC regional services in a year or two.

Apparently, pre-covid, GC made more money for Arriva/DB than any of their franchises (which at that time included Northern) hence them being committed to them during and since the pandemic.

 

[cactustwirly]

How the tables have turned

The 222s are worked very hard so this isn't surprising

 

[gabrielhj07]

I heard somewhere that 222103 is running on 1/5 engines, is this true?

 

[43066]

I heard somewhere that 222103 is running on 1/5 engines, is this true?

Doubtful. A five car will be taken out of service if less than three engines are running.

I dread to think how slowly it would run on only one of five!