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UK train passengers face loss of free wi-fi

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zwk500

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Couldn't angry suit man wait until he had got home and did the work there instead? At least the wifi wouldn't be on the blink, the paperwork and PC wouldn't be knocked by other passengers getting their gear from the overhead rack plus it'd be nice and quiet if they did do it at home unless little Jonny and Jane come screaming in the lounge to see their father.

If it was me, I'd be wanting to relax after a "hard" day in the office (not exactly breaking out in a sweat when sat at a desk doing officey things though) before getting home and cooking myself a ready meal before finishing off any work required. Thankfully I don't work in an office and the free wifi loss on the railways wouldn't at all affect me because I work in a warehouse and any admin stuff is done on site.
I know quite a few people who like to make use of the commute to finish off any last-minute things so that when they get home they can put their work bag in a corner and properly switch off, rather than having to cook dinner, freshen up and then get back down to the grind in the late evening.
 
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AM9

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Nobody needs windows. Fitting windows to trains adds a considerable cost, particularly once you've considered crashworthiness. Perhaps we should do away with windows. Then we can consider removing all other frills like power sockets, air conditioning, suspension...
All of that is a red herring. Windows, air conditioning and suspension can only be provided by the railway, it would be impracticable to run passenger trains without windows or suspension, and passengers could hardly bring their own. Wi-fi and power provision on the other hand is not related to the ability of passengers to travel, and if the passenger needed (or just wanted) either, both can easily be taken on board. Much of the discussion has been about difficulties in mobile communication in some areas. That is an issue for the network provider to deal with as it is paid for by their subscribers, and nothing to do with the railway or the fare that the passenger pays to travel. Similarly, mobile devices (including laptops) have batteries to operate anywhere. If the nominal time that they operate on those batteries isn't long enough, then either change the device to one with a longer battery capacity, or modify usage to fit what you have acquired. The same goes for hair straighteners etc., get up earlier, - the train is not an extension of your house. [/QUOTE]
 
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43066

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I know quite a few people who like to make use of the commute to finish off any last-minute things so that when they get home they can put their work bag in a corner and properly switch off, rather than having to cook dinner, freshen up and then get back down to the grind in the late evening.

Such is the reality of the long hours and unpaid overtime working culture in the UK, sadly!
 

NorthernSpirit

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Who are we to say that someone can't kill time on a train by watching Netflix or playing a game? In the past, people read books or brought travel games.

Should every passenger, especially those who travel so regularly that their route knowledge might almost match that of the driver, look out the window the whole trip?
If it was a toss up between watching some trashy US tv programme that is punctuated with "and I was like" in every other sentence or looking out of the window, I'd opt for the window at least I'd be seeing reality even if some council estate yobos have shot the train at least I'd have some information to pass on to PC plod over what they were dressed in e.g. IRA style mask on a stolen e-bike, holding a rifle. Where as someone stuck watching an extended GIF on the spyware thing called Tick Tock would be completely oblivious unless the wifi failed onboard.

Similar happened with West Yorkshire's YourNextBus system in which the text number that spelt Metro (63786) has since been dropped in favour of the QR and Naptan codes instead and I don't think anyone has complained.
 

43066

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If it was a toss up between watching some trashy US tv programme that is punctuated with "and I was like" in every other sentence or looking out of the window, I'd opt for the window at least I'd be seeing reality even if some council estate yobos have shot the train at least I'd have some information to pass on to PC plod over what they were dressed in e.g. IRA style mask on a stolen e-bike, holding a rifle. Where as someone stuck watching an extended GIF on the spyware thing called Tick Tock would be completely oblivious unless the wifi failed onboard.

Assuming the trashy tv program is played on loud speaker so that everyone else is forced to hear it, I’d say that’s modern UK rail travel neatly encapsulated, right there :lol:.
 

Jimini

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Such is the reality of the long hours and unpaid overtime working culture in the UK, sadly!

...or people working regular flexible hours and trying to avoid peak ticketing windows (Avanti's might as well be stained glass they're that epic).
 
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Krokodil

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Thankfully I don't think any new trains have the film that so effectively kills the signal (at least at certain frequencies) and I assume every manufacturer is trying to ensure the windows don't impact mobile signals.
Nothing to the extent of the VT fleet when delivered. I have however noticed that there are more blackspots when on a 197s than on a 150 (when on a line already with plenty of blackspots).
All of that is a red herring. Windows, air conditioning and suspension can only be provided by the railway, it would be impracticable to run passenger trains without windows or suspension, and passengers could hardly bring their own. Wi-fi and power provision on the other hand is not related to the ability of passengers to travel, and if the passenger needed (or just wanted) either, both can easily be taken on board. Much of the discussion has been about difficulties in mobile communication in some areas. That is an issue for the network provider to deal with as it is paid for by their subscribers, and nothing to do with the railway of the fare that the passenger pays to travel. Similarly, mobile devices (including laptops) have batteries to operate anywhere. If the nominal time that they operate on those batteries isn't long enough, then either change the device to one with a longer battery capacity, or modify usage to fit what you have acquired. The same goes for hair straighteners etc., get up earlier, - the train is not an extension of your house.
You could even bring your own seat cushions I suppose. Solid plastic seats would certainly be cheaper to buy and would simply wipe clean. I didn't see how highly passengers ranked "a comfortable seat" in the list of 25.

The point is that frills such as WiFi included in the service (and I'm primarily thinking of long-distance and regional operators here, not Thameslink) make rail travel attractive and convenient. Start penny-pinching and remove those frills and you will find markets dribbling away. Train travel becomes a distress purchase, something you only use when you really have to.
 

jon0844

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I'm quite amazed how many people aren't just not bothered, but actively don't want something purely because they don't want or need it.

That's exactly why some people don't think trains should announce stations, or provide facilities for wheelchair users, or don't see the point in cycle lanes etc etc etc.

What you want in life isn't identical to everyone else.

Wi-Fi isn't forced upon users, and plenty of people have given examples of why it is useful. I can see that despite having multiple phones and SIMs with unlimited, or as good as unlimited, data.
 

Mugby

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How much does it cost to run and administer 61016 ?

If the DfT are looking at all possible ways of making savings, wouldn't the axing of that yield a fair amount?
 

tomuk

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That's why it should up to individual TOCs whether the additional costs are worth it for their passengers.
We are in a age of highly subsidised quasi nationalised National Rail Contracts nothing is up to the TOCs anymore.

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Many thanks both. Good to know the railway uses a system that virtually dates back to semaphores and telegraphs. I wouldn’t expect anything less :).
Happens all the time for safety critical applications by the time the new technology has been proven, accepted and standards written it is now out of date. ETCS has to grapple with moving on from GSM and CBTC from 802.11 WIFI (or even worse earlier proprietary radios)
 
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Kilopylae

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I can't believe that in a western country in 2023 we are having this conversation.
If you listen to certain voices here you'll get the impression that WiFi is horribly passé and something we should have left in the 2010s with ITSO cards and Facebook Messenger games.

In all seriousness, I agree with you, and I think it's largely about customer expectations. An intercity train without WiFi 'feels' like shoddy provision, like an intercity train without charging ports or somewhere to buy refreshments, or a staffed station without toilets.

Equally, if it's much more expensive than I'm imagining, maybe it's worth surprising people negatively for a while until expectations shift/drop. Have any numbers been quoted on how much it costs?
 

tomuk

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I'm quite amazed how many people aren't just not bothered, but actively don't want something purely because they don't want or need it.

That's exactly why some people don't think trains should announce stations, or provide facilities for wheelchair users, or don't see the point in cycle lanes etc etc etc.

What you want in life isn't identical to everyone else.

Wi-Fi isn't forced upon users, and plenty of people have given examples of why it is useful. I can see that despite having multiple phones and SIMs with unlimited, or as good as unlimited, data.
Because the passenger survey shows that WIFI isn't important to passengers and potentially the money saved, it appears some of the earlier implementations need ripping out and replacing, could be spent on things, including accessibility that passengers deem more important. All 158s came with a payphone people aren't demanding their reintroduction technology moves on.
 

BluePenguin

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The southeastern WiFi is quite good and consistent, good for needs such as checking traksy and Realtimetrains
Really? I think that is about right

It is decent for browsing if you aren’t going along the coast. The only time I get a consistent connection is between Ashford and Tonbridge where there are no tunnels. Somehow managed to have an uninterrupted Teams call along that stretch and complete it before the signal went.

Sevenoaks tunnel seems to go on forever although the signal is better closer to London

The leg between Deal and Dover is patchy but by Folkestone is truly awful.

However, one thing that does seem to work in tunnels is Wi-Fi calling. Ashford to Ebbsfleet has a lot of tunnels that make phone calls impossible over the conventional network but possible over Wi-Fi

Unfortunately, the signal does drop out as you pass under the Thames but the connection restores itself as you pass under Hackney lol
 

Killingworth

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Interesting to note that a lot is being hung on Transport Focus surveys. As far as I can see they are usually of about 300 rail users a week covering a wide range of issues. (I was surveyed once a few year ago on an almost empty Hope Valley stopping service.. Mobile and wifi doesn't work well there so good to have options for both.)

In the most recent survey "Satisfaction with reliability of the internet" gets the lowest score with 56% satisfied. Quick fix - remove it!

For full details go to Transport Focus Rail User Survey - 19 May 2023; https://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.n.../05/19134330/Rail-User-Survey-19-May-2023.pdf
 

Krokodil

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Because the passenger survey shows that WIFI isn't important to passengers
No it didn't. It said that it was less important than a number of other things (stuff like merely turning up at the advertised time). You can't extrapolate from that and conclude that it isn't important at all.

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Interesting to note that a lot is being hung on Transport Focus surveys.
And as we all know you can get a survey to output any response you want. You just need to phrase the question the right way.

"Would you like refreshments served to you at your seat?"

Would get a different response to:

"Would you like to be able to purchase hot food onboard your train?"

Yet both questions can be used to present an argument for trolleys or buffets (the passenger who answered 'yes' to both questions thinks that he's getting hot food delivered by a steward, rather than having a trolley turn up with some lukewarm tea).
 

tomuk

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No it didn't. It said that it was less important than a number of other things (stuff like merely turning up at the advertised time). You can't extrapolate from that and conclude that it isn't important at all.
Yes you are quite correct I probably forget to include the word as or less in my statement. Of course if you do look at the survey the actual question was about reliability of the internet which is a valid question whether the connection is provided over onboard WIFI or by mobile data.
 

AM9

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If you listen to certain voices here you'll get the impression that WiFi is horribly passé and something we should have left in the 2010s with ITSO cards and Facebook Messenger games.

In all seriousness, I agree with you, and I think it's largely about customer expectations. An intercity train without WiFi 'feels' like shoddy provision, like an intercity train without charging ports or somewhere to buy refreshments, or a staffed station without toilets.

Equally, if it's much more expensive than I'm imagining, maybe it's worth surprising people negatively for a while until expectations shift/drop. Have any numbers been quoted on how much it costs?
The problems with existing on board Wi-if discussed here fall mainly into to main categories:
1) that there are many areas where mobile data access is poor or even non-existent
2) that the on board Wi-if is slow or erratic, and does not provide sufficient bandwidth for some users
The former is just a result of the commercial exploitation of the market by the network providers in the varied UK terrain. In order for Wi-fi to be provided on trains, TOCs have used the existing infrastructure that is available predominately for road vehicles and pedestrians, I.e. a 1 to 1 access to base stations. This is the equivalent of using a mobile phone as a hot spot to feed a medium sized company, - one that moves at speed in and out of areas with inconsistent access to signals from the primary network, because its coverage is based on where users live.
The second issue arises from the TOCs' lack of control on individual user's demands. Allowing users to draw as much bandwidth as their devices can consume , -especially as there is no charge for it creates a 'survival of the fittest' environment where a passenger with a genuine need to check messages, e-mail, news Web pages etc., cannot get a usable signal because others on the same LAN are draining the available incoming data watching a movie. That is similar to those who are profligate with water consumption when supply is constrained.
 

Bantamzen

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Why is the government's mandate to remove WiFi from trains a reason to be concerned? The point was made earlier on in this thread but has swamped by the "why do they need it?" argument, so its worth restating now. WiFi is a commodity that people like to have, and one I imagine doesn't amount to a massive percentage of the overall cost of running a TOC. So why get rid?

Clearly the government is starting to manage a decline in the railways. We've already seen services start to be cut in some parts of the world, big ticket projects are getting kicked down the road, and now even the pops, bells and whistles of things like WiFi might be on their way out. So what else will the government look to get rid of? It feels very much like the thin edge of the wedge here.
 

AdamWW

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Government has had a policy for rural broadband rollout for some time, and in an area as sparsely populated as the Far North connectivity over mobile broadband is presumably very cost-effective, because you don't need fibre/copper installs in the ground and the local network is unlikely to get overloaded, so give each house a 4G/5G dongle to act as their broadband access point and boost the phone coverage and Voila!

But for much of the time there doesn't seem to be a road anywhere near the railway let alone any inhabitations.

I suppose there it's quite flat and sparsely populated so a few masts in the right locations can serve a large area.

Maybe that explains it.

Still did seem extremely odd though.

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Plus some, not all, roaming agreements are limited to just one operator and if that roaming partner is Telefonica or Hutchison, chances are you'll be trying to use O2 or Three on the train, which can be a very variable experience.

If my experience is anything to go by, O2 is an excellent reason to keep wifi on trains.
(Still does free EU roaming though, for now).

I can see the logic for a govenment that has decided rail funding is unstustainable (what is sustainable though?) to no longer be prepared to fund the costs of wifi.

But until we see coffee shops and pubs etc. removing it I think the argument that anybody wanting to use wifi on a train is somehow living their life in the wrong way is somewhat weak.
 

Re 4/4

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Good to know the railway uses a system that virtually dates back to semaphores and telegraphs. I wouldn’t expect anything less :).

I personally am happy that anything safety-critical is not built using whatever trends in web application design are hot this week. TVMs not working one day is an annoyance, the interlocking not working would be much, much worse.

To the extent that GSM-R is used for things like being able to get the "red button" message out in an emergency, the less extra features in the system that can go wrong, the better.
 

AdamWW

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I personally am happy that anything safety-critical is not built using whatever trends in web application design are hot this week. TVMs not working one day is an annoyance, the interlocking not working would be much, much worse.

To the extent that GSM-R is used for things like being able to get the "red button" message out in an emergency, the less extra features in the system that can go wrong, the better.

Indeed, but I think it's a level of technology (unlike semaphore signalling) that becomes difficult and expensive to support once it is no longer in widespread use. "You just can't get the parts these days". I think the plan is to replace GSM-R with something more modern.
 

ar10642

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But nobody needs wifi, like many people you're confusing "need" with "want". Let's be honest, from looking at other people's phone and laptop screens on the train, nearly all of them aren't doing anything worthwhile, they're just wasting time watching trashy American TV shows on Netflicks or playing childish games that involve prodding coloured blobs on a screen.

Personally I'd go the other way; not only would I remove wifi from trains, I'd introduce mobile signal blockers so people couldn't use their phones either. Just imagine how much more peaceful and pleasant journeys would be!

I can imagine business travellers abandoning the trains even more than they already have if you make it impossible to communicate on trains at all. Honestly some of the attitudes in this country are bizarre. You can't wish the past back.

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If it was a toss up between watching some trashy US tv programme that is punctuated with "and I was like" in every other sentence or looking out of the window, I'd opt for the window

Good for you. It's not your choice what others do with their time though is it?

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Because the passenger survey shows that WIFI isn't important to passengers and potentially the money saved, it appears some of the earlier implementations need ripping out and replacing, could be spent on things, including accessibility that passengers deem more important. All 158s came with a payphone people aren't demanding their reintroduction technology moves on.

I very much doubt the money saved will be significant enough to do anything useful.
 
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SCDR_WMR

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Is it minimal extra cost? The bandwidth requirements for the train itself or for onboard crew for say ticket checks etc to pass data back to HQ are tiny compared to that required for multiple data hungry passengers that's not to mention the security\integration issues that may require duplication of equipment for different uses.
From a hardware point of view it certainly is minimal difference. On our stock (196/350/323/172) it equates to 1 Access Point and 1 router with multiple SIM cards. Yes the router is likely a specialised one rather than an off the shelf model, but it's needed for the staff requirements anyway. The cost difference in a standard and a high user AP is marginal.

Nobody will know the cost of the service/network contract, may not be hugely different between a low/high bandwidth and likely no data cap to factor in either.
 

AdamWW

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From a hardware point of view it certainly is minimal difference. On our stock (196/350/323/172) it equates to 1 Access Point and 1 router with multiple SIM cards. Yes the router is likely a specialised one rather than an off the shelf model, but it's needed for the staff requirements anyway. The cost difference in a standard and a high user AP is marginal.

Nobody will know the cost of the service/network contract, may not be hugely different between a low/high bandwidth and likely no data cap to factor in either.

Which presumably means that the business case to keep wifi may well be favourable.

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I very much doubt the money saved will be significant enough to do anything useful.

I don't think there is a suggestion that any money saved would go to the railways anyway. It's just part of general DfT cost-cutting.

Very small in the grand scheme of government spending but you could say that about lots of things.
 

XAM2175

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Government has had a policy for rural broadband rollout for some time, and in an area as sparsely populated as the Far North connectivity over mobile broadband is presumably very cost-effective, because you don't need fibre/copper installs in the ground and the local network is unlikely to get overloaded, so give each house a 4G/5G dongle to act as their broadband access point and boost the phone coverage and Voila!
Bingo.

Indeed, but I think it's a level of technology (unlike semaphore signalling) that becomes difficult and expensive to support once it is no longer in widespread use. "You just can't get the parts these days". I think the plan is to replace GSM-R with something more modern.
Yes, the UIC are developing a 5G-based system.
 

AM9

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I can imagine business travellers abandoning the trains even more than they already have if you make it impossible to communicate on trains at all.
What hyperbole! Unless you are talking about the deep tube lines or class 22x stock, I doubt that there is a journey of any significant distance that attracts business travellers wheere they cannot "communicate" at all. Plus if it is actual business work that a connection is required for, that is an expense that the business should pay (and get tax relief as a genuine business expense). If it is a 'business person' just browsing through some 'visual entertainment' (including tractors), then it is effectively leisure purposes.

Good for you. It's not your choice what others do with their time though is it?
I wonder how many of those here who feel that Wi-fi is essential to them every time that they are travelling on a train and it is a birthright, would pay for it at a fair commercial rate, - or is this dire need for it only there because somebody else is paying so that it is free to them?
 

43066

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What hyperbole! Unless you are talking about the deep tube lines or class 22x stock, I doubt that there is a journey of any significant distance that attracts business travellers wheere they cannot "communicate" at all. Plus if it is actual business work that a connection is required for, that is an expense that the business should pay (and get tax relief as a genuine business expense). If it is a 'business person' just browsing through some 'visual entertainment' (including tractors), then it is effectively leisure purposes.

To be fair the post @ar10642 was replying to had proposed actively blocking mobile signal on trains!
 

Kumquat

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Personally I'm much more miffed if something is promised and then doesn't happen/work, than if I had low expectations in the first place. See also train catering.

I very rarely use WiFi on trains, partly because I have plenty of phone data and by the time I've clicked to the network and waited agent to get to the trainco website (on 4G?) and entered my life history and waited to get connected, I've wasted a good chunk of a 15-20 min journey. I've never known EMR's WiFi to work for more than a couple minutes, and it's slower than 4G.

I was pleasantly surprised a few months ago when LNER had WiFi that actually worked well enough to be useful. I don't recall that ever happening before on any train.
 

ar10642

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What hyperbole! Unless you are talking about the deep tube lines or class 22x stock, I doubt that there is a journey of any significant distance that attracts business travellers wheere they cannot "communicate" at all. Plus if it is actual business work that a connection is required for, that is an expense that the business should pay (and get tax relief as a genuine business expense). If it is a 'business person' just browsing through some 'visual entertainment' (including tractors), then it is effectively leisure purposes.

I was talking about the proposal to block all mobile signals so that the poster could pretend it's 1970.

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I wonder how many of those here who feel that Wi-fi is essential to them every time that they are travelling on a train and it is a birthright, would pay for it at a fair commercial rate, - or is this dire need for it only there because somebody else is paying so that it is free to them?

I probably would pay a few quid for the day if it worked reliably throughout the journey. I'm really not sure why everyone is getting so worked up about this, it's a useful thing to some people, the cost is likely next to nothing in the context of the amount of money the railway gets through and if you don't want to use it then don't use it!

If they get rid of it it's not the end of the world but feels very penny pinching at the expense of passenger experience.
 
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