Euston to Holyhead via Shrewsbury

[Whistler40145]

Mind you, by the time all this has been discussed & a decision made, Virgin Trains probably won't be running the WCML InterCity franchise!

 

[jones_bangor]

I remember rumours of the Great Western franchise being asked to take on Holyhead route?

Running to Holyhead via Shrewsbury is nonsensical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

time for ATW to ask for Aber to London service again.

Cascaded HSTs?

 

[OxtedL]

I'd like to see a twice in each direction daily circular service operating EUS-BHM-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Crewe-EUS.

This is a pipe dream, it will never happen as Virgin are only interested in getting people from A to B as fast as possible and to divert a service via Shrewsbury will most likely be objected anyway by DB arriva and London Midland

I'm interpreting this particular suggestion as extending a Wolves service and round. Whether I'm right or not, surely this would be fairly sensible?
Maybe just a return to Wrexham then... Possibly even feasible with a voyager, at least as far as Shrewsbury. Plug a gap left behind.

 

[steve099]

I read a small news piece on the talks and it was mentioned that one MP would be unhappy if the train ended at Shrewsbury due to the parking problem at the station. I believe the railway car park has some 250 spaces, no doubt always full and undoubtedly pricey.

Is there any chance that a funding package might be agreed with the DfT for a Parkway station to be funded by the Council on the condition it be served by the new WCML franchise? Not sure I have seen an official Shropshire/Telford & Wrekin council stance on the talks yet?

 

[merlodlliw]

I read a small news piece on the talks and it was mentioned that one MP would be unhappy if the train ended at Shrewsbury due to the parking problem at the station. I believe the railway car park has some 250 spaces, no doubt always full and undoubtedly pricey.

Is there any chance that a funding package might be agreed with the DfT for a Parkway station to be funded by the Council on the condition it be served by the new WCML franchise? Not sure I have seen an official Shropshire/Telford & Wrekin council stance on the talks yet?

If it runs,it will be via Shrewsbury,who would manage the Parkway station? I wonder if LM the only contender would want to, also The Council is well & truly cash strapped,but would a direct attract enough traffic for a Parkway?
Seeing who the local MPs are & party, if they can not convince Hammond, no one can. However if VT did something off its own back, it may get it some
support at DFT,sadly lacking at the moment.#

My money is on the VT from Wrexham to Shrewsbury/London. With a ATW DMU replacing the 0700 VT local to Chester, as it did previous prior to giving up the path. I do not see a Pendo Drag Wolves to Shrewsbury with two drivers like the Sat Holyhead drag. Shropshire the only County in England without a direct London service is a good selling point to Hammond,


Bob

Bob

 

[TDK]

I remember rumours of the Great Western franchise being asked to take on Holyhead route?

Running to Holyhead via Shrewsbury is nonsensical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Cascaded HSTs?

HST's can't go up the Cambrian
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it runs,it will be via Shrewsbury,who would manage the Parkway station? I wonder if LM the only contender would want to, also The Council is well & truly cash strapped,but would a direct attract enough traffic for a Parkway?
Seeing who the local MPs are & party, if they can not convince Hammond, no one can. However if VT did something off its own back, it may get it some
support at DFT,sadly lacking at the moment.#

My money is on the VT from Wrexham to Shrewsbury/London. With a ATW DMU replacing the 0700 VT local to Chester, as it did previous prior to giving up the path. I do not see a Pendo Drag Wolves to Shrewsbury with two drivers like the Sat Holyhead drag. Shropshire the only County in England without a direct London service is a good selling point to Hammond,


Bob

Bob

158's have not been cleared on the Chilterns so Marylebone is out and to be honest there is no way a 90mph unit will be permitted on the WCML except on the slow lines via Northampton and the Journey time will not be any better than WSMR had. The only way it can be done is from Euston to Wolvo then on to Shrewsbury with a voyager and this is unlikely as they do not have the stock unless they ditch a Chester to London and have 1 train every 2 hours instead of 1.

If ATW or VT did decide to go to London from Shrewsbury will it not then be an open access application? I think the only way ATW will do it is with 67/mk3/DVT when they get them now that makes more sense, however I still think if they decide Euston the ORR will block it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I read a small news piece on the talks and it was mentioned that one MP would be unhappy if the train ended at Shrewsbury due to the parking problem at the station. I believe the railway car park has some 250 spaces, no doubt always full and undoubtedly pricey.

Is there any chance that a funding package might be agreed with the DfT for a Parkway station to be funded by the Council on the condition it be served by the new WCML franchise? Not sure I have seen an official Shropshire/Telford & Wrekin council stance on the talks yet?

Where would the Car Park go? There isn't much space near Shrewsbury Station
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd like to see a twice in each direction daily circular service operating EUS-BHM-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Crewe-EUS.

That will cause problems with Train Crew as VT's only nearest depot is wolves.

 

[daikilo]

How about reinstating the curve at Shotton between HL and LL in the northwest segment between the lines.

Looks to me like it could be done without too much disruption and would avoid the single track section between Chester and Wrexham.

 

[Whistler40145]

Any idea of when the Shotton Curve closed?

 

[yorkie]

time for ATW to ask for Aber to London service again.

I doubt Aber (ABE) will ever have a direct service to London, but it's quite easy to change at Cardiff Central....

Yes, I know you don't mean Aber and you mean Aberystwyth (AYW) but please don't just say "Aber"; there are many places that begin with Aber and I am aware locals may just say "Aber" but there is a station on the Rhymney line with that name, so it can cause confusion. In fact there's probably more people here that have been on a train that called at Aber station than Aberystwyth station!

Thanks

 

[daikilo]

Any idea of when the Shotton Curve closed?

No, but the trace is clearly visible on Bingmaps.

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks for the info

 

[Rhydgaled]

When disscusing the hourly 158 service to Aberystwyth on here a while back I was told the extra services couldn't go to Birmingham as there aren't the available paths between Wolverhampton and Birmingham. Later, in the aftermath of WSMR shutting down, I had a look on Google Earth at Birmingham's rail network to try and figure out a way WSMR could have got from Wolves to Snow Hill/Moor Street (since there's no capacity for more services to stop at New Street.) What I found was a tram link.

So, I'm asking now, what's the midland metro like for paths? A section of track less than a mile long (and mostly part of an existing marshaling yard/freight terminal) from near Priestfield Metro Station would make Birmingham Moor Street / Snow Hill accessible from Wolves, allowing a WSMR style service to Marylebone over the Chiltern line using the Evergreen programe's improved linespeeds. That would then be an extension of some of Chiltern's LHCS services. The service could go from Wrexham, or Aber-Y, Holyhead or Shrewsbury. What do you think, is there any merit in this idea?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm afraid theres too much speculation on silly routing, what the MP's want is that Shropshire/Wrexham are included in the next WCML franchise. You then dont have a problem in the West Midlands.

No one is seriously looking at 158's, Wrexham and Shropshire clones, putting pieces of infrastructure in the ground that takes trains away from major traffic centres. The fact that Shropshire is the only county in England without a through link to London has played well with Villiers and Hammond. Where the MP's have got it wrong is wanting to divert Holyhead trains via Shrewsbury.

Remember its a new franchise and the winner will have the opportunity to introduce additional rolling stock

 

[Whistler40145]

You have to ask yourself the following:-

Who would want to travel from Birmingham to Holyhead via Shrewsbury, Wrexham & Chester when a shorter journey to Crewe is available @ Birmingham? Turn it the other way round, would you want to travel from Euston to Crewe via Shrewsbury? I would expect the answer to be a definite NO!

If the train had to travel via an alternative route, why not use a Voyager & send it from Crewe or Stafford to Chester via Manchester Piccadilly & Warrington, in the path of a Euston-Manchester service?

 

[jones_bangor]

Any idea of when the Shotton Curve closed?

1950s or 60s as a guess. Was never a "direct link" as far as I can make out - there would have been a need for a run around as the "Shotton Curve" went the small dockyard there, which was also served by the North Wales Coast Line.

The "Oldmaps" website shows it.

Would certainly open new routing opportunities!

 

[Whistler40145]

Another link could produce other routing opportunities, it would be useful for Merseyrail to build a link connecting the Chester-Hooton-Liverpool line with the Liverpool-Bidston line, then a Chester-Bidston-Wrexham-Shrewsbury service could be run?

 

[krus_aragon]

Yes, I know you don't mean Aber and you mean Aberystwyth (AYW) but please don't just say "Aber"; there are many places that begin with Aber and I am aware locals may just say "Aber" but there is a station on the Rhymney line with that name, so it can cause confusion. In fact there's probably more people here that have been on a train that called at Aber station than Aberystwyth station!

Pedant alert: That'll be what used to be known as Aber Halt, as opposed to the original Aber railway station, which served the village of Abergwyngregyn between Bangor and Llanfairfechan until 1960. Aber Halt later assumed its name.

Curiously, I've been to/from Aberystwyth twice by train (mainline and Rheidiol), but have never passed Aber halt - yet!

 

[tbtc]

You have to ask yourself the following:-

Who would want to travel from Birmingham to Holyhead via Shrewsbury, Wrexham & Chester when a shorter journey to Crewe is available @ Birmingham?

The current daytime service from Birmingham to Chester/ Holyhead is via Shrewsbury (the overnight Virgin service is via Stafford). Its probably faster to change at Crewe *and* Chester

 

[merlodlliw]

How about reinstating the curve at Shotton between HL and LL in the northwest segment between the lines.

Looks to me like it could be done without too much disruption and would avoid the single track section between Chester and Wrexham.

Ill dig out the old maps of Shotton, I was not aware there was ever a direct link onto the Borderlands line, the Shotton/Connahs Quay curve was used in the War to service Summers Steel Works, ill check this. This idea bypasses Chester & won't happen.

Money is on the table for a double between Saltney & Rossett, Ministers statement within the past few weeks,this money is ring fenced,work to commence 2012.

I have spoken to the MP for Wrexham, involved in the talks with Salop M.Ps
they are looking at a service from Chester to Shrewsbury/London via Wrexham, the 0700 voyager ex Wrexham is the principle candidate, they have asked Hammond to look at this route for WCML.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, but the trace is clearly visible on Bingmaps.

have a look at this, the original routes & curveshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_and_Connah's_Quay_Railway


As its part of the National Cycle Network, there is no way back to rail I am afraid. But after seeing this, there was indeed a link to the Ctr & Hdd

Bob

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have spoken to the MP for Wrexham, involved in the talks with Salop M.Ps
they are looking at a service from Chester to Shrewsbury/London via Wrexham, the 0700 voyager ex Wrexham is the principle candidate, they have asked Hammond to look at this route for WCML.

They'll need to find another Voyager unit from somewhere for this. The current 0735 ex Chester double unit (combining the Holyhead and Wrexham units) is busy from there (with a good first class complement), full from Crewe and stuffed from Rugby - same on the 1810 back from Euston.

And a single unit would not be welcome forming a peak-hour service at New Street, so it would need to be a double, or miss out New Street, or run via Walsall/Nuneaton and we are back on slow routes again.

Not an easy one to solve without a raft of extra Voyagers, currently leased to XC until 2016. Alternatively the new WCML franchisee could deploy Pendolinos on Birmingham-Scotland and recycle the Voyagers, but that is not simple either.

My guess is that DfT Rail is against the whole idea, but the MPs and ministers want it (as long as there is no fallout elsewhere...).
What's the betting it will be a "priced option" in the WCML ITT?

 

[merlodlliw]

They'll need to find another Voyager unit from somewhere for this. The current 0735 ex Chester double unit (combining the Holyhead and Wrexham units) is busy from there (with a good first class complement), full from Crewe and stuffed from Rugby - same on the 1810 back from Euston.

And a single unit would not be welcome forming a peak-hour service at New Street, so it would need to be a double, or miss out New Street, or run via Walsall/Nuneaton and we are back on slow routes again.

Not an easy one to solve without a raft of extra Voyagers, currently leased to XC until 2016. Alternatively the new WCML franchisee could deploy Pendolinos on Birmingham-Scotland and recycle the Voyagers, but that is not simple either.

My guess is that DfT Rail is against the whole idea, but the MPs and ministers want it (as long as there is no fallout elsewhere...).
What's the betting it will be a "priced option" in the WCML ITT?

Its all in the melting pot, pinching the 7.00a.m. will not bother them, Politicians are good at inventing a service & taking one from another run, take for example the WAG2 175, this will have to be stolen from another run.

Must say the 0700 service & return is basically a local to from Chester,& this voyager was taken from somewhere,it would never have run if W/S had not arrived in Wrexham but most Politicians as we have found are lost to common sense and don't seem to want to run a service to where its wanted.

You are correct what happens to the HHD voyager when it arrives in Chester for the 0725 to Euston, but then other voyagers run very light Chester to Euston
except during the peaks.
Bob

 

[TDK]

They'll need to find another Voyager unit from somewhere for this. The current 0735 ex Chester double unit (combining the Holyhead and Wrexham units) is busy from there (with a good first class complement), full from Crewe and stuffed from Rugby - same on the 1810 back from Euston.

And a single unit would not be welcome forming a peak-hour service at New Street, so it would need to be a double, or miss out New Street, or run via Walsall/Nuneaton and we are back on slow routes again.

Not an easy one to solve without a raft of extra Voyagers, currently leased to XC until 2016. Alternatively the new WCML franchisee could deploy Pendolinos on Birmingham-Scotland and recycle the Voyagers, but that is not simple either.

My guess is that DfT Rail is against the whole idea, but the MPs and ministers want it (as long as there is no fallout elsewhere...).
What's the betting it will be a "priced option" in the WCML ITT?

I didn't think the 07.00 off Wrexham stopped at Rugby. It's not the MP's who will decide this but VT and the ORR/Dft. I can't see VT wasting their time with the 07.00 from Wrexham, I have actually heard through the grapevine with no evidential back up that VT are thinking of stopping the 07.00 altogether and attaching the extra train at Crewe to save the journey to Wrexham. Time will tell.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I didn't think the 07.00 off Wrexham stopped at Rugby. It's not the MP's who will decide this but VT and the ORR/Dft. I can't see VT wasting their time with the 07.00 from Wrexham, I have actually heard through the grapevine with no evidential back up that VT are thinking of stopping the 07.00 altogether and attaching the extra train at Crewe to save the journey to Wrexham. Time will tell.

Its only at franchise change time that today's railway has any opportunity for real changes so the timing of the MP's is right its not about what you can bodge today but what could be on offer as part of package of wider improvements across the WCML.

 

[jones_bangor]

Ill dig out the old maps of Shotton, I was not aware there was ever a direct link onto the Borderlands line, the Shotton/Connahs Quay curve was used in the War to service Summers Steel Works, ill check this. This idea bypasses Chester & won't happen.

Money is on the table for a double between Saltney & Rossett, Ministers statement within the past few weeks,this money is ring fenced,work to commence 2012.

WAG Transport Minister might well be happy to see some services bypass Chester - e.g. WAG Express. 20 mins savings North Wales - South is very significant & WAG Express does not exist to serve Chester.

I'd much rather see this investment on Wrexham - Bidston than electrification by antiquated third rail technology!

 

[Gareth Marston]

WAG Transport Minister might well be happy to see some services bypass Chester - e.g. WAG Express. 20 mins savings North Wales - South is very significant & WAG Express does not exist to serve Chester.

I'd much rather see this investment on Wrexham - Bidston than electrification by antiquated third rail technology!

Did you not see the Statement on the 16th the WAG Transport Minister is chucking hundred of millions at tarmac layers with bypasses on the road to Pembroke Dock and completing the old Welsh Office joining the dots together project of building a dual carriageway all the way from Ross on Wye via Abergavenny and Merthyr to Neath. He reaffirmed the commitment to redoubling at Gowerton also. Not quite on message with today announcement from the European Commission.
Not a penny for railway curves in Flintshire I/m afraid.

 

[merlodlliw]

I didn't think the 07.00 off Wrexham stopped at Rugby. It's not the MP's who will decide this but VT and the ORR/Dft. I can't see VT wasting their time with the 07.00 from Wrexham, I have actually heard through the grapevine with no evidential back up that VT are thinking of stopping the 07.00 altogether and attaching the extra train at Crewe to save the journey to Wrexham. Time will tell.

All stories are floating around, but if VT did leave Wrexham, who will run the
0700 service Wrexham to Chester & return, its part of the ATW franchise that ATW gave to VT.

The Shrewsbury AM runs to Bidston after terminating at Wrexham & the 2045 Wrexham to Shrewsbury also comes off Bidston.

These two services to/from Wrexham have to run & will haunt VT & ATW for their shot gun Marriage, serves them right.

I also was not aware that the 0700 Wrexham/Euston called at Rugby.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WAG Transport Minister might well be happy to see some services bypass Chester - e.g. WAG Express. 20 mins savings North Wales - South is very significant & WAG Express does not exist to serve Chester.

I'd much rather see this investment on Wrexham - Bidston than electrification by antiquated third rail technology!

WAG Express does exist to serve Chester,its like Shrewsbury both are Managed by ATW and are hubs, Chester will never be bypassed due to links.

Bob

 

[Geezertronic]

I also was not aware that the 0700 Wrexham/Euston called at Rugby.

According to Traveline, the service stops at:

Chester - Arr:0716, Dep: 0735
Crewe - Arr: 0754
Rugby - Arr: 0845
Euston - Arr: 0938

 

[jones_bangor]

WAG Express does exist to serve Chester,its like Shrewsbury both are Managed by ATW and are hubs, Chester will never be bypassed due to links.

Bob

Can I quote you on that in c. 10 yrs time!!?

I see your point to a degree, but I'm only on about some services bypassing Chester.

The morning WAG Express is followed by a VT Voyager 20 minutes later, so there'd hardly be a loss of connectivity if Gerald deviated southwards at Shotton.

 

[connor7777]

I can see plenty of room to redouble Saltney to Wrexham, i think there was doubt over some bridges though, i cant remember.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Did you not see the Statement on the 16th the WAG Transport Minister is chucking hundred of millions at tarmac layers with bypasses on the road to Pembroke Dock and completing the old Welsh Office joining the dots together project of building a dual carriageway all the way from Ross on Wye via Abergavenny and Merthyr to Neath. He reaffirmed the commitment to redoubling at Gowerton also. Not quite on message with today announcement from the European Commission.

What did the European Commission say today then?

Also, while there's a bypass planned for Llandewi Velfrey on the A40, what's planned for the road to Pembroke Dock is not bypasses. No, it seems to me that that scheme is something even worse, basicly a complete divertion of the road. I expressed objections to these two schemes in the Pembrokeshire Local Development Plan consultation, pointing out that predestrian crossings and 30mph speed limits for Llanddewi Velfrey, Llanddowror and Red Roses would provide large saftey benifits at a fraction of the cost.

You've probablly heard this from me before (I'm always going on about it on here, but nobody has yet suggested a course of action for me to take my campaign further) but:

1. The £600m Heads Of The Valleys scheme would be enough to electrify the Swanline (doubled to hourly), Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham ValleyLines services, including rolling stock and the proposed Ebbw Vale - Newport service, with tens of thousands of £s left over. I sent this suggestion to my local AM a while back.
2. Replacing the A40 and St Clears to Red Roses schemes with my suggested measures would save about £50m. Put that into TDM fitting some 57s and obtaining mrk2 stock, including the DBSOs, and replace the 4-car 158s on Holyhead - Birmingham with these to release the units to make the Cambrian mainline hourly and run a 2-hourly Cardiff - Fishguard express service. Not sure if £50m would be enough, but it'd go along way to getting these useful service improvments.