UK train passengers face loss of free wi-fi

[bramling]

Does your employer count your travelling time as part of your working week?

If not, why do you feel the need to be "productive" in your leisure time?

Some people work for themselves, therefore any time is fair game for working (I realise there’s a debate to be had as to whether the taxpayer/farepayers should subsidise technology to support this).

There’s a superb legend that David Lloyd George used to work in a dedicated compartment in one of the old carriages on the Ffestiniog Railway during his time as a solicitor. I daresay this provides an example of the practice.

However, “being productive” isn’t necessarily about work.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Mortlake - Feltham Junction, Ashford - Egham, Sunningdale - Martins Heron all very patchy and unreliable. The section Ascot - Martins Heron is the worst of the lot. I've lost a couple of reports I was trying to upload in those areas so always now make sure I'm logged on to the WiFi.

I have to say that I don’t recognise this picture. I must be extremely lucky on that line.

 

[Goldfish62]

I cant recall the last time I bought anything on the train. Catering cant be "washing it's face" on many services!

Fine, so let's get rid of that. Some people don't use the toilets so let's remove them as well. Aircon? Who really needs it? Why maintain lines for speeds above 100mph? Let's slow everything down. No one will notice a few more minutes on their journeys. etc etc.

Do we really want our railways to become the worst in the developed world? Clearly, judging by this forum some people would be quite happy to see that.

 

[Krokodil]

Catering cant be "washing it's face" on many services!

It's a loss leader

 

[AdamWW]

The weirdest is just how good the 4G is on the Far North Line north of Inverness, i had signal i would say 75% of the way.

Utterly bizarre, isn't it?

 

[Goldfish62]

It's a loss leader

Indeed. As DB, who provide a much higher standard of catering across their long distance services state, catering makes a loss but it is an essential part of the mix that makes up the whole product.

That's a business decision that will have been backed up by a business case, rather than miserly bean counting, which has no place in business decisions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is if my fares/taxes are funding it. If it was chargeable at break even rate I'd agree.

I think it’s safe to say that the TOCs would save more money by downgrading the biscuits in their meetings.

 

[DarloRich]

Fine, so let's get rid of that. Some people don't use the toilets so let's remove them as well. Aircon? Who really needs it? Why maintain lines for speeds above 100mph? Let's slow everything down. No one will notice a few more minutes on their journeys. etc etc.

Do we really want our railways to become the worst in the developed world? Clearly, judging by this forum some people would be quite happy to see that.

you are being silly - such an approach invalidates the points you are trying to make. You are getting in a state about something, which when introduced, WAS ground-breaking but now is just old hat.

The key is: Does on train wifi still offer a benefit to users OR can that benefit be provided via a different mechanism at no cost to the train company. I say the latter although I accept the cost saving is minimal in the grand scheme of things.

It's a loss leader

it is certainly a loss. I am not sure it leads anywhere!

That's a business decision that will have been backed up by a business case, rather than miserly bean counting, which has no place in business decisions.

What do you think a business case is? - it is absolutely "bean counting" - you have to show that by spending some beans now you can create the opportunity to earn the company a glut of beans in the future!

( I am not sure a trolley with some tepid coffee and 1 overpriced buttie does that! I would LOVE a 3 course meal with wines and cognac on my journey to Euston but that is not feasible and stopped being feasible in about 1923!)

 

[AdamWW]

That's a business decision that will have been backed up by a business case, rather than miserly bean counting, which has no place in business decisions.

Perhaps in the quote above the poster is referring to cutting costs without looking at the consequences.

There is of course a difference between a requirement to provide something by government fiat, and justifying it commercially.

A while ago the government decided that trains should have wifi (regardless of whether it made or lost money), including a requirement for it in new franchise bids and offering some money to provide it on existing franchises.

Now - at least according to some reports - rather than trying to ban wifi the government is saying that they are no longer prepared to fund it (either directly or by the costs being included in contract costs) and it needs to be justified commercially.

 

[Goldfish62]

What do you think a business case is? - it is absolutely "bean counting" - you have to show that by spending some beans now you can create the opportunity to earn the company a glut of beans in the future!

I have written plenty of business cases in my time and do not recognise your narrow definition.

 

[43066]

There’s a superb legend that David Lloyd George used to work in a dedicated compartment in one of the old carriages on the Ffestiniog Railway during his time as a solicitor. I daresay this provides an example of the practice.

He managed to cope without on-train Wi-Fi, too!

The latest in the line of RUK excuses for trying to live in the past! I am not in any way "tech savvy" and I have an unlimited free data plan on my phone. if I can sort it out so can you!

Not sure if you misread - I’m in agreement with you here!

I can only think it’s down to a fear of change that people are complaining about Wi-Fi being removed. Anyone who cares enough to miss data while travelling won’t be relying on ontrain Wi-Fi, they will have 4g/5g and a decent data plan. They are dirt cheap!

 

[DarloRich]

Not sure if you misread - I’m in agreement with you here!

I didn't mean you - I meant YOU ( in the Kitchner style!)

He managed to cope without on-train Wi-Fi, too!

It is also possible DLG was up to things other than work in his private carriage. He did put it about a bit

 

[Goldfish62]

you are being silly - such an approach invalidates the points you are trying to make. You are getting in a state about something, which when introduced, WAS ground-breaking but now is just old hat.

Not at all. The DfT's stated case for removing WiFi is based on a survey of passenger priorities. None of the items I listed featured as top priorities either, so on that basts let's remove them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can only think it’s down to a fear of change that people are complaining about Wi-Fi being removed. Anyone who cares enough to miss data while travelling won’t be relying on ontrain Wi-Fi, they will have 4g/5g and a decent data plan. They are dirt cheap!

Wifi in my view is like Rabbit phones - something that became ubiquitous because doing it properly (5G) was a bit expensive.

In time it'll disappear entirely - things needing Internet access will just have an e-sim, and you'll contract for whatever amount of data across as many such SIMs as you want (within reason). In places where signal is bad, people will install picocells* and not Wifi.

* Vodafone did offer one called SureSignal that worked via your Wifi, but it was a bit ahead of its time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2023 ==

Not at all. The DfT's stated case for removing WiFi is based on a survey of passenger priorities. None of the items I listed featured as top priorities either, so on that basts let's remove them.

If something is low priority and is expensive then removing it to spend the money on things that are high priority does make sense.

 

[43066]

I didn't mean you - I meant YOU ( in the Kitchner style!)

Ah - got you!

It is also possible DLG was up to things other than work in his private carriage. He did put it about a bit

I’m sure he would have appreciated a good data connection for whatever he might have been perusing on lonely train trips!

In time it'll disappear entirely - things needing Internet access will just have an e-sim, and you'll contract for whatever amount of data across as many such SIMs as you want (within reason). In places where signal is bad, people will install picocells* and not Wifi.

Presumably landlines will eventually go the same way: I use mine for broadband only (have done for years now) and I have a fast fibre optic connection for data intensive gaming/movies etc. which, at least for the time being, is still better then a mobile connection could provide.

 

[Goldfish62]

If something is low priority and is expensive then removing it to spend the money on things that are high priority does make sense.

I bet the open access operators will be keeping it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably landlines will eventually go the same way: I use mine for broadband only (have done for years now) and I have a fast fibre optic connection for data intensive gaming/movies etc. which, at least for the time being, is still better then a mobile connection could provide.

They're headed that way. I haven't had one for years, my Internet is via fibre. It'll be the case in not-too-long that the only way to have a landline is to plug a phone into a wifi or 4/5G-connected box/router.

5G is what potentially brings mobile data up to fibre levels of performance once it's ubiquitous enough.

 

[AdamWW]

Not at all. The DfT's stated case for removing WiFi is based on a survey of passenger priorities. None of the items I listed featured as top priorities either, so on that basts let's remove them.

While I think that's a silly justification (nobody really wants wifi because they think it's more important that the train turns up and is on time?) then - despite the headlines - so far as I can see the DfT isn't saying that wifi should be removed, it's saying that it is no longer prepared to cover the costs for wifi if it can't pay for itself.

 

[Kilopylae]

In time it'll disappear entirely - things needing Internet access will just have an e-sim, and you'll contract for whatever amount of data across as many such SIMs as you want (within reason).

I agree with your speculation, but right now, laptops that can do mobile data is science fiction for most people, and tethering/hotspot is very data-expensive for folks on more restrictive contracts. It's just too soon to dismiss Wifi as obsolescent.

 

[Krokodil]

If something is low priority and is expensive then removing it to spend the money on things that are high priority does make sense.

Are the government saying that "if we remove the WiFi, you'll be guarenteed a seat and the train will be on time"? The money won't be spent on the things that passengers consider priorities - even if it was it wouldn't touch the sides.

 

[bicbasher]

I think O2 is massively oversubscribed in and around London. You get full signal but no pages load quite a lot of the time. Zero chance of watching TV on it for most of my journey.

I use O2 in South and Central London with no major issues. It even works on a part of track which was a blackspot for EE and Vodafone.

 

[tomuk]

Exactly, our H&S are currently questioning just this. All of our company tech is set to run on WiFi (revenue equipment, company phones etc), so it can't just be removed completely. Though they probably could be changed to mobile network, that was an issue with the previous equipment as card transactions had to go through in offline mode regularly due to signal drop out.

Clearly different parts of the network will have differing views, but there are swathes of the country with at best 3G signal, next to no 5G on around 90% of my network if not higher

There will be most of the country without 3G soon Vodafone start the big switch off next month, EE and Three throughout next year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2023 ==

Not everyone has a reasonable amount of mobile data as per their mobile phone contract, and that data doesn't work best in a 100mph moving train going through the countryside...

How do you think the on train WiFi works? It only 'repeats'* the mobile signal outside the train.

* I know this isn't technically accurate but it is true in very generalised layman's terms.

 

[AM9]

I agree with your speculation, but right now, laptops that can do mobile data is science fiction for most people, and tethering/hotspot is very data-expensive for folks on more restrictive contracts. It's just too soon to dismiss Wifi as obsolescent.

Not obsolescent, just inappropriate as part of a railway's general commitments. For those wanting a generous data allocation to do their work, they (or their employers if not self-employed) should purchase the correct mobile package to meet their needs. For those who want higher data bandwidth for leisure purposes, they should also make adequate arrangements. Mobile data is both affordable and readily accessible, and there is no justification in expecting other rail customers or the public purse to fund any individual's wishes.

 

[zwk500]

Utterly bizarre, isn't it?

Government has had a policy for rural broadband rollout for some time, and in an area as sparsely populated as the Far North connectivity over mobile broadband is presumably very cost-effective, because you don't need fibre/copper installs in the ground and the local network is unlikely to get overloaded, so give each house a 4G/5G dongle to act as their broadband access point and boost the phone coverage and Voila!

 

[43066]

There will be most of the country without 3G soon Vodafone start the big switch off next month, EE and Three throughout next year.

Not sure who provides coverage for the GSMR network? My understanding is that that is 3G.

 

[Davester50]

Put yourself in the position of a foreign tourist without free roaming.

How small a market is that?
I know when I'm abroad, I'll check before whether its better to get a local SIM or use the existing contract.

 

[AdamWW]

Not sure who provides coverage for the GSMR network? My understanding is that that is 3G.

My understanding (happy as always to be corrected):

GSM (and GSM-R) are 2G technology - but GSM-R is totally separate to the UK mobile phone networks so shutting them down has no impact.

2G should be phased out in the UK on mobile phone networks by 2033. (But then maybe not as lots of equipment other than actual phones use 2G - and I've read that 5G might actually be able to provide a 2G-compatible signal).

GSM-R if not replaced by something else becomes obsolete technology (and almost certainly harder to get replacement parts for than, say, semaphore signals).

 

[ar10642]

I use O2 in South and Central London with no major issues. It even works on a part of track which was a blackspot for EE and Vodafone.

Maybe it's an issue with being inside a train and moving quite quickly. Not great for me anyway.

 

[Krokodil]

How do you think the on train WiFi works? It only 'repeats'* the mobile signal outside the train.

Outside the metal box, you mean? Probably somewhere on the roof?

How small a market is that?
I know when I'm abroad, I'll check before whether its better to get a local SIM or use the existing contract.

Disabled passengers are a tiny market. Should we stop paying for adaptations so that they can travel? Or do we realise that making transport more accessible (whether to disabled passengers or foreigners) is the right thing to do?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Disabled passengers are a tiny market. Should we stop paying for adaptations so that they can travel? Or do we realise that making transport more accessible (whether to disabled passengers or foreigners) is the right thing to do?

That is a ridiculous statement. Foreign tourists don’t have a human right to taxpayers in their host country paying their internet bill so they can upload a photo onto Instagram of a bacon butty they purchased from the buffet.