UK train passengers face loss of free wi-fi

[bicbasher]

I'd like to see investment in improving 4G coverage on railway lines, such as what is happening between Victoria/London Bridge and Brighton, which would negate the need for WiFi on-board.

 

[RJ]

Why can't you use mobile data 4G\5G?

I do - I have an unlimited plan. Though that doesn’t help in black spots where the wifi holds up.

The post was a response to a question on why people need to be connected to the internet on a train.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Given that even the smallest shops now require Wi-Fi for POS machines, SumUp readers, etc, giving the public access to the Wi-Fi is such a marginal cost it barely registers.

Same on the trains. Many on-board systems will continue to require Wi-Fi so the equipment will still be required. Removing access to it from the public will likely save absolutely naff all.

Exactly, our H&S are currently questioning just this. All of our company tech is set to run on WiFi (revenue equipment, company phones etc), so it can't just be removed completely. Though they probably could be changed to mobile network, that was an issue with the previous equipment as card transactions had to go through in offline mode regularly due to signal drop out.

Clearly different parts of the network will have differing views, but there are swathes of the country with at best 3G signal, next to no 5G on around 90% of my network if not higher

 

[Bartsimho]

Its quite common to insist on tethering or just issuing laptops with SIM cards built in. IIRC Network Rail doesn't allow the usage of public WiFi so they can't use on train WiFi either.

Wouldn't they be able to implement a Private VPN to tunnel a connection through to give the security needed if its not their own internet being used even if it was your Home WiFi you had connected to as its not too difficult if you want to try and access a Home network as well due to the lack of security people have on them.

 

[Krokodil]

Maybe I'm a bit of an outlier here but why do some people on trains feel they need to be connected to the internet every second of their journey? If you want to entertain yourself over the course of your journey, try looking out of the window; the view will be far more interesting than anything you can see on a mobile or laptop screen. If it's dark or you're travelling through a dull industrial area read a book or maybe listen to some music on your mp3 player. None of these activities require a wifi connection.

You do you

 

[AdamWW]

Exactly, our H&S are currently questioning just this. All of our company tech is set to run on WiFi (revenue equipment, company phones etc), so it can't just be removed completely. Though they probably could be changed to mobile network, that was an issue with the previous equipment as card transactions had to go through in offline mode regularly due to signal drop out.

So presumably the question is then whether there is a business case for the additional costs in allowing public access.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

So presumably the question is then whether there is a business case for the additional costs in allowing public access.

And he question of how much (if any) additional cost there is. During installation the costs would be higher as you could get away with the most basic (cheap) setup for just a few devices, whereas I'd imagine the current ones are at least capable of 128 devices simultaneously. But as the hardware is already paid for, only a change in the network access or data cap if there is possible.

 

[AdamWW]

But as the hardware is already paid for, only a change in the network access or data cap if there is possible.

Until the hardware needs renewing (or not).

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I do a journey which is two hours each way 2 or 3 times a week. That can be used as working time to get technical tasks done, making progress on projects or sorting out business related matters.

Looking out the window at the same scenery for 12 hours a week isn’t a terribly productive use of my time. If it wasn’t possible to work on the go then I wouldn’t be doing that journey at all, I would have to reside much closer to work.

But, if you travel for leisure, or travel time is a chance to get some peace from home and work then using that time to relax is a more attractive prospect and internet might not be that important.

There are different types of passengers using the trains and connectivity will be a trip generator for some people.

Does your employer count your travelling time as part of your working week?

If not, why do you feel the need to be "productive" in your leisure time?

 

[AdamWW]

Does your employer count your travelling time as part of your working week?

If not, why do you feel the need to be "productive" in your leisure time?

Personally I think it's a bit odd to argue about whether people are spending their time on a train in the right way or not, and I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else (though when I look round on a train, looking at a phone screen seems to be a far more popular pursuit than looking out of the window).

If I said that I believe that sitting down is bad for ones health and that therefore I spend my time at work at a standing desk and stand up on the train even when there are seats available, and therefore I think most of the seats in trains should be removed so that everyone can be like me, I suspect that wouldn't be seen as very reasonable.

Anyway while I am in general a big fan of looking out of the window, I could stare out of the window during my commute and see mostly the same things every day, or I could get on with various tasks on my laptop (including catching up on various threads on this forum, as it happens) so that when I get home I have more time to do things that I couldn't do on a train.

As for work, I know someone who does reduced hours in the office and gets to include time on their laptop on their commute both ways as working time. Perhaps this is not common but it can happen.

 

[LUYMun]

Why can't you use mobile data 4G\5G?

Not everyone has a reasonable amount of mobile data as per their mobile phone contract, and that data doesn't work best in a 100mph moving train going through the countryside...

 

[43066]

Not everyone has a reasonable amount of mobile data as per their mobile phone contract

There are always going to be niche exceptions. I think the poster above stating he doesn’t have a mobile phone in 2023 certainly qualifies!

As noted above how many people travelling by train really can’t afford a decent data amount these days, though? Especially those who are dependent enough on connectivity for it to be an issue?

and that data doesn't work best in a 100mph moving train going through the countryside...

Mobile data works a hell of a lot better than most on train Wi-Fi! I could watch a movie in 4K on my mobile using 4/5g - no chance of that with Wi-Fi.

 

[ar10642]

Maybe I'm a bit of an outlier here but why do some people on trains feel they need to be connected to the internet every second of their journey? If you want to entertain yourself over the course of your journey, try looking out of the window; the view will be far more interesting than anything you can see on a mobile or laptop screen. If it's dark or you're travelling through a dull industrial area read a book or maybe listen to some music on your mp3 player. None of these activities require a wifi connection.

If I'm just going to sit there on my way to work unproductively looking out of a window I might as well drive. It's also not really anyone else's business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I'm just going to sit there on my way to work unproductively looking out of a window I might as well drive.

Who are these business travellers who don't have mobile phones?

It's also not really anyone else's business.

It is if my fares/taxes are funding it. If it was chargeable at break even rate I'd agree.

 

[ar10642]

Who are these business travellers who don't have mobile phones?



It is if my fares/taxes are funding it. If it was chargeable at break even rate I'd agree.

I tend to switch between either 4G or the train Wifi, whichever one's working better at the time. How much do you think your taxes/ticket price are going to be reduced by removing Wifi in an industry subsidised by £11bn and where my peak time return ticket is £72?

If they remove it, so be it, but let's not pretend this is going to save a significant amount of money.

 

[AdamWW]

Who are these business travellers who don't have mobile phones?

I can certainly understand someone not wishing to tether their laptop using a personal data plan.

At least if using wifi tethering, in my experience with Windows the computer will "assume" it's on a free/cheap connection and will quite happily do data intensive things like updating programs or the OS if it feels like it.

 

[DarloRich]

Is on train WIFI really such a big thing these days?

My mobile data is free, unlimited, faster and better. It isn't 1999 anymore! In the olden days before covid I used the wifi on trains to work but now with reduced business travel, better "hot spotting" and much better phones is it really required? I can do everything I need to do on the move from a phone such as emails, calls, vid calls etc.

BTW modern phones aren't quite as good as the old BlackBerry for emails but it is very easy.

PS - Even if on train wifi is a good idea some clown always seems to be eating up the available access trying to stream a film!

 

[Goldfish62]

Is on train WIFI really such a big thing these days?

Yes, if you can't get a signal. There are several blackspots on the Waterloo - Reading line for example and on Cross Country between Oxford and Leamington Spa the signal is virtually non-existent most of the way. I work on the train and WiFi really is pretty essential to me because the mobile signal is not consistent enough. My network is EE.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, if you can't get a signal. There are several blackspots on the Waterloo - Reading line for example and on Cross Country between Oxford and Leamington Spa the signal is virtually non-existent most of the way. I work on the train and WiFi really is pretty essential to me because the mobile signal is not consistent enough. My network is EE.

I have O2 and find it pretty good. I have listened to a test match almost all the way from Stirling to London on mobile data. No issues until we got close to London.

I have listened to the F1 on many Sunday journeys from the north east to MK without any real issues ( standedge tunnel aside!) and i have even watched the race occasionally when I had the means to do so

You cant do that on train wifi.

 

[Killingworth]

My original post 1 linked an article in The Times supposedly justifying removal of free wifi by a very broad Transport Focus survey. Christian Wolmar and Railfuture were quoted opposing any such move. "The move is being pushed by the Department for Transport in an attempt to cut costs as it looks to “reform all aspects” of the railway."

On most journeys I tend to look out of the window, be engaged in conversation - or have my eyes closed. However I do like to check and reply to emails and look up matters of interest on my phone. Both mobile signals and railway wifi are patchy on my most frequently used route between Sheffield and Manchester - long tunnels kill both!

Would I miss wifi? Yes. Would it deter me from any journey? No. Would I pay for it on a train? Not for the standard currently provided through the Hope and Goyt Valleys!. Do I think it's a positive step to remove free wifi when it's free in big stations and in most big shops and restaurants in cities, and even in small hamlets? No. Even my nearest National Trust property offers free wifi.

It's kite flying A bean counters economy, like rationing staples and paper clips when we need to be cutting bigger ticket items and increasing passenger numbers and revenue as fast as possible to pay for a quality railway.

 

[Goldfish62]

I have O2 and find it pretty good. I have listened to a test match almost all the way from Stirling to London on mobile data. No issues until we got close to London.

I have listened to the F1 on many Sunday journeys from the north east to MK without any real issues ( standedge tunnel aside!) and i have even watched the race occasionally when I had the means to do so

You cant do that on train wifi.

Different lines and different use. I need the WiFi, you obviously don't, so lucky you, unlucky me!

I will have to adapt, obviously, but what a state this country is if the penny-pinching has to go to the extreme of removing WiFi on government-controlled passenger services.

Catering for the chop next?

 

[gabrielhj07]

There are several blackspots on the Waterloo - Reading line for example

Where are these blackspots?

 

[Goldfish62]

It's kite flying A bean counters economy, like rationing staples and paper clips when we need to be cutting bigger ticket items and increasing passenger numbers and revenue as fast as possible to pay for a quality railway.

Indeed. Bean counting is invariably counter-productive and has zero positive impact.

 

[ar10642]

I have O2 and find it pretty good. I have listened to a test match almost all the way from Stirling to London on mobile data. No issues until we got close to London.

I have listened to the F1 on many Sunday journeys from the north east to MK without any real issues ( standedge tunnel aside!) and i have even watched the race occasionally when I had the means to do so

You cant do that on train wifi.

I think O2 is massively oversubscribed in and around London. You get full signal but no pages load quite a lot of the time. Zero chance of watching TV on it for most of my journey.

 

[Goldfish62]

Where are these blackspots?

Mortlake - Feltham Junction, Ashford - Egham, Sunningdale - Martins Heron all very patchy and unreliable. The section Ascot - Martins Heron is the worst of the lot. I've lost a couple of reports I was trying to upload in those areas so always now make sure I'm logged on to the WiFi.

 

[yoyothehobo]

There are a few weird black spots on the network for 4G, York station is horrible for signal, as is quite a bit of the line between Leeds and York (though some of that might by XC Voyager related in the areas away from the cuttings)

The weirdest is just how good the 4G is on the Far North Line north of Inverness, i had signal i would say 75% of the way.

 

[Goldfish62]

The weirdest is just how good the 4G is on the Far North Line north of Inverness, i had signal i would say 75% of the way.

I suppose there it's quite flat and sparsely populated so a few masts in the right locations can serve a large area.

 

[Krokodil]

As noted above, though, how many people travelling by train really can’t afford a decent data amount these days, though?

Put yourself in the position of a foreign tourist without free roaming. I've found myself WiFi hopping around non-EU countries. I've also found myself WiFi hopping in Poland when my mobile data just wouldn't function (was fine in Germany and Czechia, but wouldn't function in Poland). In a strange country you need information to get around.

You may well call this a "niche" case, but for the individual it is very important.

 

[DarloRich]

Catering for the chop next?

I cant recall the last time I bought anything on the train. Catering cant be "washing it's face" on many services!

Different lines and different use. I need the WiFi, you obviously don't, so lucky you, unlucky me!

I use my work phone for any work stuff and have no real problems. I don't even know what network that is TBH but I allows me to email, call and do video calls if required.

My point was not about networks but that you can easily use a phone on the train and watch live TV. I am not sure that was possible 5 years ago and you absolutely cant do that on train wifi

PS - surely there are similar blackspots on the WIFI service as it is based on the mobile signal. It isn't a cure all. On long distance IC journeys i find the in train wifi almost useless and vastly frustrating. It doesn't allow me to work much of the time and all I am doing is emails or reading reports/documents. Easier to turn it off and hot spot.

I think O2 is massively oversubscribed in and around London. You get full signal but no pages load quite a lot of the time. Zero chance of watching TV on it for most of my journey.

I put it down to the tunnels put I bow to your technical knowledge for i have none!

As noted above how many people travelling by train really can’t afford a decent data amount these days, though? Especially those who are dependent enough on connectivity for it to be an issue?

The latest in the line of RUK excuses for trying to live in the past! I am not in any way "tech savvy" and I have an unlimited free data plan on my phone. if I can sort it out so can you!

 

[mpthomson]

It’s also public, not very secure and often ends up resulting in spam emails from signing up to it.

Some companies (mine included) won't allow connection to public wifi setups like this for exactly that reason.