Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[XAM2175]

Are Assembly Members for North Wales and Anglesey aware of the long standing problems with these services....or have they simply stopped using them?

They've been Senedd Members for near enough to exactly three years now, mind

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think Senedd members are a very high proportion of the passengers.
From what I can see it's mainly public sector workers (teachers, local government, NHS etc) travelling to meetings in Cardiff.
Plus plenty of local/regional folk, and lots of schools traffic at certain times.
Naturally the Manchester service has more business and long-distance leisure traffic.

 

[Phil from Mon]

I don't think Senedd members are a very high proportion of the passengers.
From what I can see it's mainly public sector workers (teachers, local government, NHS etc) travelling to meetings in Cardiff.
Plus plenty of local/regional folk, and lots of schools traffic at certain times.
Naturally the Manchester service has more business and long-distance leisure traffic.

That’s my experience too! Only ever saw one AS in the last 10 or so years on the Holyheads.

 

[CW2]

Not a Senedd member, but apparently David Davis MP was amongst the standing passengers wedged onto the 2 car DMU on the southbound "Gerald" on Thursday morning.

 

[Jez]

Are we expecting the booked diagrams to work tomorrow including those from Swansea? Even when booked as we know often they get substituted for Sprinters/175s. Is it definite they will run as MK4s tomorrow (as definite as anyone can be)

 

[sd0733]

Well yesterday i had my first trip on a MK4 from Manchester to Cardiff. Originally I was planning to get the 1530 but my plans allowed me to leave Manchester a little earlier so I made the 1430 with about 10 minutes to spare. As it turned out it was late arriving/departing Manchester due to the issues with the signalling at Newport. And having an open ticket gave me flexibility. Also the chance to experience a MK4 at last and not being able to face being crammed into a 2 car Sprinter after my horrific journey the day before on a 150 from Neath to Manchester (although it turned out the 1530 was actually a 175, albeit

Overall a good experience and even though well loaded it didnt feel as rammed as some Sprinters/175s can be. You can tell it isnt a new train though. And I prefer the 197s/231s if im honest for the ambience and general feel of the service. I think I prefer a 175 as well when it isnt overcrowded. But this is still a massive step up in capacity even at 2.5 carriages of standard class, will be even better when its 3.5 carriages standard class with the added first class carriage.

Are we expecting the booked diagrams to work tomorrow including those from Swansea? Even when booked as we know often they get substituted for Sprinters/175s. Is it definite they will run as MK4s tomorrow (as definite as anyone can be)

That set was the spare set brought out of Crewe for the 1330 with all the disruption, the catering staff wouldn't have been in place hence why the buffet was shut.
Sandwiches are all made by the chef, unfortunately if one isn't on there's nothing Bar light snacks. It has been asked about getting pre-packed ones on when the chef isnt on

For tomorrow its not going to start fully tomorrow unfortunately. The Crewe Diagram is booked 2x153s tomorrow due to crew availability, so it's only a Canton set that could be out now.

 

[Jez]

That set was the spare set brought out of Crewe for the 1330 with all the disruption, the catering staff wouldn't have been in place hence why the buffet was shut.
Sandwiches are all made by the chef, unfortunately if one isn't on there's nothing Bar light snacks. It has been asked about getting pre-packed ones on when the chef isnt on

For tomorrow its not going to start fully tomorrow unfortunately. The Crewe Diagram is booked 2x153s tomorrow due to crew availability, so it's only a Canton set that could be out now.

Thanks for explaining re.the catering.

So I assume the Canton set that does the 1032 from Swansea will run tomorrow?

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for explaining re.the catering.

So I assume the Canton set that does the 1032 from Swansea will run tomorrow?

Wouldn't put money on it. Doesn't look to be Crews for it either off Canton so wouldn't be suprised if there's none out tomorrow. No units allocated yet though so can't totally rule out the Canton Diagram.

 

[Jez]

Wouldn't put money on it. Doesn't look to be Crews for it either off Canton so wouldn't be suprised if there's none out tomorrow. No units allocated yet though so can't totally rule out the Canton Diagram.

Oh no. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come with the new timetable !

 

[sd0733]

For various reasons, no Mk4s out today.
Still planned for 4 sets tomorrow, HD01 off Canton, HD02 and HD05 off Crewe, HD06 off Holyhead.

 

[Techniquest]

For various reasons, no Mk4s out today.
Still planned for 4 sets tomorrow, HD01 off Canton, HD02 and HD05 off Crewe, HD06 off Holyhead.

That's a shame, but thanks for the heads-up. I'll leave my planned Swansea trip for another day

I know it's been said on here before, but out of those 4, which are ex-GC?

 

[sd0733]

H

That's a shame, but thanks for the heads-up. I'll leave my planned Swansea trip for another day

I know it's been said on here before, but out of those 4, which are ex-GC?

HD01-03 are the LNERs, HD04-07 are the ex Grand Central sets.

 

[Techniquest]

H

HD01-03 are the LNERs, HD04-07 are the ex Grand Central sets.

Thank you That was a swift reply!

I'll try to remember that for next time I'm out, I may be getting some short notice time off so I'm going to try and make the most of the MK4s!

 

[Jez]

H

HD01-03 are the LNERs, HD04-07 are the ex Grand Central sets.

I think the set I went on Friday 1430 Manchester to Cardiff was ex LNER? The interior looked like it.

Shame there are none out today. Not a good start to the new timetable. Hopefully do better tomorrow. I see the 1032 from Swansea is being terminated in Cardiff anyway due to shortage of train crew.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I think the set I went on Friday 1430 Manchester to Cardiff was ex LNER? The interior looked like it.

Shame there are none out today. Not a good start to the new timetable. Hopefully do better tomorrow. I see the 1032 from Swansea is being terminated in Cardiff anyway due to shortage of train crew.

If it was red/white on the outside, it was ex-LNER .

 

[daodao]

Given all the trouble these old worn out ex-LNER/GC mark 4 sets are causing, they should have been sent direct to the scrapyard in Newport, with more class 197 units bought instead. An hourly 2-3 car standard class only dmu without catering (other than a trolley) is sufficient for the Manchester-Cardiff route. I recently made a late afternoon weekday journey from Crewe to Cardiff and back and the 2 coach class 158 and 175 units were more than adequate for the traffic, and fairly comfortable, with the class 158 being the better unit IMO, but these trains are old and can't last forever.

 

[sd0733]

Given all the trouble these old worn out ex-LNER/GC mark 4 sets are causing, they should have been sent direct to the scrapyard in Newport, with more class 197 units bought instead. An hourly 2-3 car standard class only dmu without catering (other than a trolley) is sufficient for the Manchester-Cardiff route. I recently made a late afternoon weekday journey from Crewe to Cardiff and back and the 2 coach class 158 and 175 units were more than adequate for the traffic, and fairly comfortable, with the class 158 being the better unit IMO, but these trains are old and can't last forever.

If there's no crew then it would be cancelled whatever train it was.

197s have loads of issues. Would just mean a lot more cancellations as there would be nothing at all at the Moment.

 

[Jez]

If it was red/white on the outside, it was ex-LNER .

It was! And yes I thought it was ex LNER as the inside seemed very familiar. Didnt feel very TFW if you know what I mean.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2023 ==

Given all the trouble these old worn out ex-LNER/GC mark 4 sets are causing, they should have been sent direct to the scrapyard in Newport, with more class 197 units bought instead. An hourly 2-3 car standard class only dmu without catering (other than a trolley) is sufficient for the Manchester-Cardiff route. I recently made a late afternoon weekday journey from Crewe to Cardiff and back and the 2 coach class 158 and 175 units were more than adequate for the traffic, and fairly comfortable, with the class 158 being the better unit IMO, but these trains are old and can't last forever.

You must have been lucky then to have adequate seating on a 2 car 158 or 175. Every time ive used the service in recent times whether its been between Swansea-Cardiff or on the Marches its been full and standing when a 2 car of anything has turned up.

197s are more than suitable for the route but they need at least 4 carriages for it to be comfortable IMO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2023 ==

If there's no crew then it would be cancelled whatever train it was.

197s have loads of issues. Would just mean a lot more cancellations as there would be nothing at all at the Moment.

This might be better being asked in the CAF 197 thread (so feel free to move it) but what issues are the 197s having? Is this why they seemed to have stopped introducing more into service?

 

[craigybagel]

The issues today with the MKIVs is the lack of available crews. Given there are fewer crews trained on 197s than MKIVs who also sign the Marches, using 197s would make things even worse (aside from the fact they're not cleared for passenger service on the route yet).

TfW drivers will soon be voting on a proposal to make Sundays part of the working week - if that goes through, it'll have a much bigger impact on the reliability of Sunday services than the choice of rolling stock.

 

[Jez]

The issues today with the MKIVs is the lack of available crews. Given there are fewer crews trained on 197s than MKIVs who also sign the Marches, using 197s would make things even worse (aside from the fact they're not cleared for passenger service on the route yet).

TfW drivers will soon be voting on a proposal to make Sundays part of the working week - if that goes through, it'll have a much bigger impact on the reliability of Sunday services than the choice of rolling stock.

Looks like the MK4 diagram 1032 from Swansea to Cardiff is a 2 car 175. At least its better than a Sprinter!

I probably should ask this in the 197 thread but if 197s arent yet cleared for passenger service on the Marches why from tomorrow are there booked workings on the route. Would it make sense to book these services for 175s given there is zero chance of them actually being worked by the 197s they are booked for.

 

[Caaardiff]

Given all the trouble these old worn out ex-LNER/GC mark 4 sets are causing, they should have been sent direct to the scrapyard in Newport, with more class 197 units bought instead. An hourly 2-3 car standard class only dmu without catering (other than a trolley) is sufficient for the Manchester-Cardiff route. I recently made a late afternoon weekday journey from Crewe to Cardiff and back and the 2 coach class 158 and 175 units were more than adequate for the traffic, and fairly comfortable, with the class 158 being the better unit IMO, but these trains are old and can't last forever.

You got lucky. Most 2 car Manchester services and full and standing at some point. It's over a 4 hour journey from West Wales, so the offering of first class and catering will appeal to some. The concept of having first class and 3.5 carriages of standard, along with decent catering will make the route much more appealing to travellers. For too long the marches has suffered with overcrowded 2-3 car trains with haphazard catering offering.

 

[Topological]

The issues today with the MKIVs is the lack of available crews. Given there are fewer crews trained on 197s than MKIVs who also sign the Marches, using 197s would make things even worse (aside from the fact they're not cleared for passenger service on the route yet).

TfW drivers will soon be voting on a proposal to make Sundays part of the working week - if that goes through, it'll have a much bigger impact on the reliability of Sunday services than the choice of rolling stock.

Longer term we are going to be faced with issues from having two different types of stock instead of 1, though I agree that the 197s are not ready either.

The point remains that there is not a full complement of usable 175s and that is the failing that causes the cancellations. 2 are off lease, which should never have happened in a nationalised railway. I would have been angry at a private company letting trains go off lease, but when the motivation of the lessor should be the quality of service then it is even worse. Crews are trained on 175s so any cancellation is purely a function of the decision not to maintain 175s properly.

I agree with daodao and Jez that a transition from 175 to 197 would have been fine. As a regular user of the service I disagree that 2 carriages is enough, there are so many local issues which prevent that. Examples being the cheap trains from Crewe to London (LNWR now?) adding TfW to Manchester for anyone wishing to take advantage from Manchester, the college traffic for Hereford and Shrewsbury, people going on nights out in Cardiff, people who insist on using the TfW to get from Manchester to Wilmslow... I cannot think of many occasions where the 2 carriages have been adequate for the full Cardiff to Manchester, even if there are stages where the line is quieter.

I like the Mk4 and hope they can be made to work, it is just an extra complication that is not 100% necessary.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Looks like the MK4 diagram 1032 from Swansea to Cardiff is a 2 car 175. At least its better than a Sprinter!

I probably should ask this in the 197 thread but if 197s arent yet cleared for passenger service on the Marches why from tomorrow are there booked workings on the route. Would it make sense to book these services for 175s given there is zero chance of them actually being worked by the 197s they are booked for.

Delays to 197s happen... haven't had chance to do the full passenger tests yet I'd imagine with crew training and the shortages of 175s...

 

[craigybagel]

I probably should ask this in the 197 thread but if 197s arent yet cleared for passenger service on the Marches why from tomorrow are there booked workings on the route. Would it make sense to book these services for 175s given there is zero chance of them actually being worked by the 197s they are booked for.

The diagrams that start tomorrow apply all the way until September. 197s will be introduced on the Marches a lot sooner than that, hopefully in the next few weeks. The services that are booked for 197s on the Marches this week have been STP amended to show other units

I agree with daodao and Jez that a transition from 175 to 197 would have been fine. As a regular user of the service I disagree that 2 carriages is enough, there are so many local issues which prevent that. Examples being the cheap trains from Crewe to London (LNWR now?) adding TfW to Manchester for anyone wishing to take advantage from Manchester, the college traffic for Hereford and Shrewsbury, people going on nights out in Cardiff, people who insist on using the TfW to get from Manchester to Wilmslow... I cannot think of many occasions where the 2 carriages have been adequate for the full Cardiff to Manchester, even if there are stages where the line is quieter.

I like the Mk4 and hope they can be made to work, it is just an extra complication that is not 100% necessary.

The extra MKIVs allowed the release of 170s to EMR, and were a fairly cost effective way of upgrading the Manchester service. Extra 197s could have provided the capacity, but at an increased cost, and they wouldn't provide the premium service the MKIVs can. There's a lot of potential on the route for increased usage on both 1st and standard that was held back by decades of underinvestment. Introducing the sets into TfW was a franchise requirement anyway for the Premier Holyhead services, so it should have been a straightforward expansion of that.

Hindsight showed that the ex GC rakes and the extra 67s brought in were suffering from having spent time in storage, and that has impacted on reliability. This has gotten better, and hopefully will continue to do so, as will staff availability as more crews are trained.

 

[Topological]

The diagrams that start tomorrow apply all the way until September. 197s will be introduced on the Marches a lot sooner than that, hopefully in the next few weeks. The services that are booked for 197s on the Marches this week have been STP amended to show other units


The extra MKIVs allowed the release of 170s to EMR, and were a fairly cost effective way of upgrading the Manchester service. Extra 197s could have provided the capacity, but at an increased cost, and they wouldn't provide the premium service the MKIVs can. There's a lot of potential on the route for increased usage on both 1st and standard that was held back by decades of underinvestment. Introducing the sets into TfW was a franchise requirement anyway for the Premier Holyhead services, so it should have been a straightforward expansion of that.

Hindsight showed that the ex GC rakes and the extra 67s brought in were suffering from having spent time in storage, and that has impacted on reliability. This has gotten better, and hopefully will continue to do so, as will staff availability as more crews are trained.

Thank you, I had neglected the 170s to EMR step.

However, this does beg the question whether a temporary cover could have been set up on the valleys (in the style of the old 37s ) which would have allowed 150s on the Maesteg to Cheltenham during the transition to 197s. I am of course presuming that the 175s had been kept fully utilised. Given we are only looking at a couple of Mk4 diagrams per day, and there are 175s in sidings, it would appear doable even without the temporary hire in on the valleys.

Either way, I really like the Mk4 and am happy when my tickets allow one to be used. When the 05:36 from Swansea goes over to Mk4 operation the trains of choice for a trip to Manchester are clear.

I think what regular users of the Marches want to see is suitable stock and, failing that, no cancellations or short journeys due to managerial issues (no one can account for things like the Newport fire, the floods, or the fact that some trains do break down).

 

[craigybagel]

However, this does beg the question whether a temporary cover could have been set up on the valleys (in the style of the old 37s ) which would have allowed 150s on the Maesteg to Cheltenham during the transition to 197s. I am of course presuming that the 175s had been kept fully utilised. Given we are only looking at a couple of Mk4 diagrams per day, and there are 175s in sidings, it would appear doable even without the temporary hire in on the valleys.

There is a temporary solution already in place for the Valleys. 231s have been sent there temporarily instead of going straight to the old 170 routes as was originally planned.

The 175s in sidings are not fit for use. If they were, they would be in service. Not all units have had the replacement parts fitted that they require.

Either way, I really like the Mk4 and am happy when my tickets allow one to be used. When the 05:36 from Swansea goes over to Mk4 operation the trains of choice for a trip to Manchester are clear.

I think what regular users of the Marches want to see is suitable stock and, failing that, no cancellations or short journeys due to managerial issues (no one can account for things like the Newport fire, the floods, or the fact that some trains do break down).

Indeed they do. And hopefully they'll get that soon. But at the moment the choice on many services really is a 150/153 or a cancelled train.

 

[Techniquest]

Well I just hope the 1830 produces what it was showing on RTT today, a pair of 175s. I made a last minute decision to head north today, thanks to a quiet 158+150 pairing, and I've booked Advances with Northern around the fact that the 1910 from Crewe will be 175s.

I'm only concerned as I didn't know there was football in Manchester today. Thankfully Manchester is not my destination, but I am travelling back from Stockport at 1817!

As for the MK4s, yes I'm gutted as I'd hoped for my first 67 to Swansea today and to go with the Blue Beauty to do some cycling. It is what it is though! I've gone for some cycling up north instead, hopefully I will get my MK4 run in before too long.

I've also been meaning to ask since the other day, what's up with 67022? I saw it parked up in Bangor.

 

[sd0733]

I've also been meaning to ask since the other day, what's up with 67022? I saw it parked up in Bangor

It's awaiting a ride up the A55 back to Crewe after making it from Holyhead with badly dragging brakes.

 

[Caaardiff]

Thank you, I had neglected the 170s to EMR step.

However, this does beg the question whether a temporary cover could have been set up on the valleys (in the style of the old 37s ) which would have allowed 150s on the Maesteg to Cheltenham during the transition to 197s. I am of course presuming that the 175s had been kept fully utilised. Given we are only looking at a couple of Mk4 diagrams per day, and there are 175s in sidings, it would appear doable even without the temporary hire in on the valleys.

Either way, I really like the Mk4 and am happy when my tickets allow one to be used. When the 05:36 from Swansea goes over to Mk4 operation the trains of choice for a trip to Manchester are clear.

I think what regular users of the Marches want to see is suitable stock and, failing that, no cancellations or short journeys due to managerial issues (no one can account for things like the Newport fire, the floods, or the fact that some trains do break down).

Without going off topic too much. It's become such a mess in an ever changing situation.
There should have been 5/6 Mk4's in service. A full 230 operation. The majority of 175's still in service and 769's still in service. 170's to cover West Wales and HOW. Most of that hasn't happened.
The more recent plan was for 170's to have gone, with 175's to cover Maesteg - Cheltenham (before fire issues), 150's to cover Ebbw Vale as well as some 175's still remaining on Marches services. The DfT wouldn't allow TFW to keep all the 170's any longer, with the exception of a small extension to 3.
There's still 1x 150 covering Wrexham - Bidston due to the poor reliability of the 230's.
Mk4's were to run Swansea - Manchester but the diagrams are too long for a 67 to run a full day within fuel range.

The 175's don't seem to be doing great again. Over the past few days only 8 have been in service. Over a month after the MD said most of them should be back in service.
As for the leases, it gets complicated when there's contracts involved. The 2 taken out of service (002 and 005) have had extensive works done to them to get them in a position to be handed back fully maintained. It would make sense to have kept them going longer, but there's probably issues in the background preventing that.

I'm surprised TFW has pushed ahead with the 5 car forming and not had as many mk4's available as possible and deal with the 5 car forming when the fleet is in a better position.

The only thing saving TFW from meltdown at the amount of engineering works on the Valleys lines at the moment freeing up 150's.

 

[Techniquest]

It's awaiting a ride up the A55 back to Crewe after making it from Holyhead with badly dragging brakes.

Thanks Hopefully it'll be back in action before too long!

Chaos on the Marches today it appears, all gone belly up after I left it this morning and I'm currently melting away on 150267+150208 at Shrewsbury. Such a contrast to the 158 this morning, and even more to the MK4s on Wednesday!