Caledonian Sleeper to serve Birmingham and Manchester

[hkstudent]

It’s kind of weird that the second and the third largest cities in the UK are not having night time train services. When I look at the runtime of lowlander and highlander Caledonian Sleeper, there are so much of pathing allowances which could be sufficient to allow the diversions to take place.

I am thinking of this is due to the only JR sleeper train : Sunrise Express do take and drop passengers enroute and would make the “seat-beds” be having a high turnover rate (likely 1.5 rounds per night).

 

[DanNCL]

On paper it’s a good idea but to work it would require a substantial shift in customer orientation, specifically they’d need to move away from targeting the higher end tourist market in favour of the mid market and budget travel markets, as those are the travellers that’ll be prepared to board a train at 3am.

The “seat-beds” were never introduced on the Caledonian Sleeper as they didn’t gain UK regulatory approval. Couchettes also aren’t a thing in the UK, which means the only accommodation types on the Caledonian Sleeper is a single seated coach and the sleeper cabins. The Caledonian Sleeper would need more seated coaches, and potentially fewer sleeper coaches, for a diversion via Birmingham and Manchester to be viable.

Manchester does have a limited night service as TPE run a 24 hour service between Manchester and York, although of course these aren’t sleepers.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It's been pointed out previously that the current arrangements for the Caledonian Sleepers give plenty of leeway for diverting around WCML engineering works particularly given the number of re-routing options in the west midlands. Such flexibility would be significantly undermined if calls had to be made at the likes of New Street or Piccadilly. And that's quite apart from the disturbance to passengers caused by public stops in the middle of the night.

As for the point about neither Birmingham nor Manchester having full-blown overnight services that's because they're not sufficiently remote from sufficiently large traffic generation sources to make such services worthwhile.

 

[JonathanH]

It’s kind of weird that the second and the third largest cities in the UK are not having night time train services.

It isn't.

Where do Birmingham and Manchester need to be linked to overnight? The Highland sleeper stops at Crewe and Preston to cater for the limited market there is, enabling more people to connect than might be possible in Birmingham and Manchester.

I travelled Helensburgh to Crewe last night in the seats, connecting for Birmingham. 2332 to 0525, with a change in Edinburgh doesn't give scope for a full night's sleep.

 

[M&NEJ]

Where do Birmingham and Manchester need to be linked to overnight? The Highland sleeper stops at Crewe and Preston to cater for the limited market there is, enabling more people to connect than might be possible in Birmingham and Manchester.

At the risk of re-opening an old wound, the real answer for me would be : Brussels and Cologne!

 

[The Planner]

Prior to it going back in house one of the two was going to call at Birmingham International. Its now been dropped.

 

[JonathanH]

At the risk of re-opening an old wound, the real answer for me would be : Brussels and Cologne!

That isn't going to be the destination of Caledonian Sleeper though.

 

[tbtc]

It’s already the longest train in Britain, how many more carriages do you want to add to accommodate the Birmingham and Manchester passengers?

If the Scottish Government feel that such diversions would be profitable then good luck to them, but I doubt they’d want Scottish taxpayers paying additional funds to subsidise Mancunians having a night out in Birmingham

 

[M&NEJ]

That isn't going to be the destination of Caledonian Sleeper though.

No, of course it isn't. I was answering the question "where do Birmingham and Manchester need to be connected to overnight?"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Birmingham was actively proposed (i.e. CS were actually looking at doing it) not so long ago. I don't know what happened to it.

 

[The Planner]

Birmingham was actively proposed (i.e. CS were actually looking at doing it) not so long ago. I don't know what happened to it.

Dead since the change back to in house.

It’s already the longest train in Britain, how many more carriages do you want to add to accommodate the Birmingham and Manchester passengers?

If the Scottish Government feel that such diversions would be profitable then good luck to them, but I doubt they’d want Scottish taxpayers paying additional funds to subsidise Mancunians having a night out in Birmingham

Same length, just diverted via the West Mids

 

[Bartsimho]

I do wonder why couchettes haven't been used more as it seems like a way you could use the carriages a bit during the day with them becoming sleepers later (although I guess that causes issues if there are delays).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the Scottish Government feel that such diversions would be profitable then good luck to them, but I doubt they’d want Scottish taxpayers paying additional funds to subsidise Mancunians having a night out in Birmingham

It would still have had the same restrictions as before and would not have carried any domestic English passengers any more than it carries people from Euston to Preston now.

 

[JamesT]

I do wonder why couchettes haven't been used more as it seems like a way you could use the carriages a bit during the day with them becoming sleepers later (although I guess that causes issues if there are delays).

Previous posts on the Caledonia Sleeper thread have stated that UK loading gauge makes it hard to fit couchettes in at a higher density than beds. So the operators would rather have beds they can charge decent fares for.

 

[30907]

Previous posts on the Caledonia Sleeper thread have stated that UK loading gauge makes it hard to fit couchettes in at a higher density than beds. So the operators would rather have beds they can charge decent fares for.

...and using couchettes/sleepers for day trains only works when the journey is the right length for efficient working. Norway is about to try it, and it will be interesting to see how it works.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

No, of course it isn't. I was answering the question "where do Birmingham and Manchester need to be connected to overnight?"

From personal experience, I believe all major cities should have overnight services. Particularly as those who prefer morning flights have to travel down the night before it not driving (I've caught the last train from New St to Euston for a 4.30am flight from Gatwick for instance).

Also, whilst drifting somewhat off topic, it's not about just the major stops, overnight trains should connect the cities, not stop just at them. People work shifts in many industries.
People get stuck in places due to missed connections (not necessarily rail).
Most people prefer to get home, no matter the time rather than be forced to stay in a hotel for instance.

As for the CS, I could see stopping at Birmingham International working, or stopping on the way from London north. Not everyone who wants to use the sleeper is in London or Scotland, or Crewe for that matter.

 

[Magdalia]

It’s kind of weird that the second and the third largest cities in the UK are not having night time train services.

It isn't weird at all, it is a function of geography.

Birmingham and Manchester are in the middle of the country and nowhere with a big enough traffic flow is far enough away to justify night time trains.

40 years ago Birmingham had a sleeper to/from Glasgow, and Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Newcastle all had sleeper services to/from London. They became redundant when daytime journey times were reduced.

 

[sprinterguy]

As for the CS, I could see stopping at Birmingham International working, or stopping on the way from London north. Not everyone who wants to use the sleeper is in London or Scotland, or Crewe for that matter.

You don't have to live in Crewe to catch the Sleeper from there, there are regular direct trains from both Birmingham and Manchester that call there, making it pretty much ideal as a calling point for the Highland sleeper that happens to lie on its existing line of route.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

You don't have to live in Crewe to catch the Sleeper from there, there are regular direct trains from both Birmingham and Manchester that call there, making it pretty much ideal as a calling point for the Highland sleeper that happens to lie on its existing line of route.

I didn't say they lived in Crewe. I pick up many people on the Trent going to Euston to catch the Sleeper, whether they would choose to start their journey more locally such as Birmingham I honestly couldn't say, but even with Crewe being a hub, New St is a major connection for almost anywhere

 

[sprinterguy]

I didn't say they lived in Crewe. I pick up many people on the Trent going to Euston to catch the Sleeper, whether they would choose to start their journey more locally such as Birmingham I honestly couldn't say, but even with Crewe being a hub, New St is a major connection for almost anywhere

New Street is certainly that, but I thought it worth outlining that Crewe can currently act as an adequate hub for prospective passengers from the North West, West Midlands, North Wales and the Borders and, at a bit of a push, bits of the East Midlands (Less so than New Street in the latter case, admittedly).

Don't get me wrong, as a former resident of Birmingham I have long held that a call at New Street from one of the sleepers would be an entirely sensible and personally convenient idea to increase the services' catchment area. I might as well note that on the occasions I used the sleeper while living in the West Mids, I did admittedly use Euston as a starting point more often than Crewe, as the latter is not a particularly hospitable place to find oneself having to kill time late at night. Of course for the Lowland Sleeper, London is the only option.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

...and using couchettes/sleepers for day trains only works when the journey is the right length for efficient working.

And when the same operator operates both day and night trains!

You don't have to live in Crewe to catch the Sleeper from there, there are regular direct trains from both Birmingham and Manchester that call there, making it pretty much ideal as a calling point for the Highland sleeper that happens to lie on its existing line of route.

When I have got on at Crewe at in the past there has always been a decent number of other pass (double figures) also joining at Crewe - wherever they have come from. The catchment area also includes Chester, Shrewsbury and the Potteries etc.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Glasgow is of course the third largest city in the UK.

 

[Peter0124]

If there is a late market for London to Manchester then reinstating the 23:00 service from Euston or even extending one of the late Wolverhampton's up to Manchester could be a good idea.

 

[BrianW]

As for the point about neither Birmingham nor Manchester having full-blown overnight services that's because they're not sufficiently remote from sufficiently large traffic generation sources to make such services worthwhile.

This is the key point. The journey needs to be long enough for someone to Sleep.

It's a similar consideration regarding catering. I used to love breakfast and dinner on the train- on may journeys you're at your destination in next to no time.

What times would arrivals and departures in Birmingham and Manchester be; similarly Inverness, Edinburgh etc.

Looks to me like a solution looking for a non-existant problem?

I note what others say about Crewe- which seems to 'do the job' well enough.

 

[Darandio]

Glasgow is of course the third largest city in the UK.

How did you work that one out?

 

[Trainguy34]

What times would arrivals and departures in Birmingham and Manchester be; similarly Inverness, Edinburgh etc.

BHI: Euston (Lowlander) Dep 0510
Euston (Highlander) Dep ~0610
Scotland (Highlander) Dep ~2245
Scotland (Lowlander) Dep ~0130

 

[JonathanH]

BHI: Euston (Lowlander) Dep 0510
Euston (Highlander) Dep ~0610
Scotland (Highlander) Dep ~2245
Scotland (Lowlander) Dep ~0130

Who wants to get on a train that leaves Glasgow and Edinburgh at 2340 and arrives in Birmingham at 0510? That amounts to five hours sleep if you are lucky.

Likewise, 0130 for 0720.

 

[gingerheid]

How did you work that one out?

If you use an archaic definition of city then most of London isn't in either the city of London or the city of Westminster. It is of course a definition of city that's not relevant for the purposes of this discussion, as is well demonstrated by the fact that the only remaining UK sleepers all point at London!

Who wants to get on a train that leaves Glasgow and Edinburgh at 2340 and arrives in Birmingham at 0510? That amounts to five hours sleep if you are lucky.

Likewise, 0130 for 0720.

And who needs to be in Birmingham early so desperately that just after 9am isn't good enough?

(I do know that, in terms of Scotland at least, the potential response is "Ah but people might want to be at Manchester airport early...", in which context the lack of the overnight TPE predecessor services seems like a bit of a shame. That however definitely isn't a problem solved by sleepers!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who wants to get on a train that leaves Glasgow and Edinburgh at 2340 and arrives in Birmingham at 0510? That amounts to five hours sleep if you are lucky.

Likewise, 0130 for 0720.

The Highlander times look usable, though.

 

[David Goddard]

Probably as well to make the call at Rugby instead of BHI, then the service can use the Trent Valley route or go via Birmingham.
Down Highland passes at 22:22, the Up at 06:38 so that wouldn't be unreasonable, and there are LNWR connections in either direction (for Coventry & Birmingham and for Northampton & Milton Keynes) about twenty minutes before the evening pickups and twenty minutes after the morning setdowns