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Rail service branding under GBR

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irish_rail

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rail-to-great-british-railways-so-far.248500/

That probably depends on whether you consider the railways in Britain to be a single brand, or a confederation of brands.

For me, an intercity train from London to Edinburgh is providing a different sort of service to a suburban metro train in southeast London, or a rural line in Cornwall. Why should they not have different branding to reflect this?
Indeed. As with BR at the end, Intercity, Regional, NSE etc was perfect. Thats the kind of lines I'd be looking at, so an Intercity service in Plymouth is branded the same as an Intercity service in Glasgow , and a branch line train in Cornwall is branded the same as one on a branch line in Yorkshire.
 
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zwk500

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Indeed. As with BR at the end, Intercity, Regional, NSE etc was perfect. Thats the kind of lines I'd be looking at, so an Intercity service in Plymouth is branded the same as an Intercity service in Glasgow , and a branch line train in Cornwall is branded the same as one on a branch line in Yorkshire.
Broadly agree - although I think there's merit to being less strict on letting local branch lines (especially those heavily used by tourists) have a more independent streak as to use advertising.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Indeed. As with BR at the end, Intercity, Regional, NSE etc was perfect. Thats the kind of lines I'd be looking at, so an Intercity service in Plymouth is branded the same as an Intercity service in Glasgow , and a branch line train in Cornwall is branded the same as one on a branch line in Yorkshire.

I wouldn't go quite like that, because I don't think Network SE was useful as a branding - because it didn't distinguish types of trains. I'd go more with intercity/regional/local, where:

Intercity means, Euston-Manchester or Manchester-Glasgow
Regional means, Waterloo-Portsmouth or Manchester-Windermere (could alternatively be branded semi-fast)
Local means, Waterloo-Woking or Manchester-Hazel Grove, Basically anything that travels not too far and stops everywhere (or almost everywhere).

Local services would often be managed locally and hence might sometimes be branded for the local public transport authority, but regional and intercity services would never be.

That would also potentially facilitate a more sensible variation in ticket pricing differentiation, whereby you might pay a bit more to travel on an intercity service than on a regional service between the same destinations (if the intercity service is substantially faster), but that would be the only ticket differentiation: A ticket marked intercity would be valid on all intercity (as well as slower) trains that are appropriate for that journey - you'd never for example have tickets valid only on some intercity TOCs but not others.
 

JonathanH

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That would also potentially facilitate a more sensible variation in ticket pricing differentiation, whereby you might pay a bit more to travel on an intercity service than on a regional service between the same destinations (if the intercity service is substantially faster), but that would be the only ticket differentiation: A ticket marked intercity would be valid on all intercity (as well as slower) trains that are appropriate for that journey - you'd never for example have tickets valid only on some intercity TOCs but not others.
That is still to complicated as there are cliff edges between Intercity and Regional routes in your differentiation, places where Intercity provides the Regional service, places where Regional isn't much slower. All adds up to yet more avoidable confusion.
 

FlyingPotato

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Sometimes as well you get trains that are in between regional and InterCity

My personal thing is

InterCity Grand express (for HS2)
Intercity - London Bristol
Interregional - Manchester barrow
Regional - reading to Redhill
Local - random branch line
Commuter - Elizabeth line

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

But I do admit, I'm probably not qualified to state what branding should be as there are many routes which could be seen as regional or Interregional and so on
It's just speculation and a bit of fun
 
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Lewisham2221

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I'd probably go with 3 main base liveries/sub-brands, InterCity, Regional and local/commuter. Obviously even that would still bring into question the blurry lines and grey areas of services that could fit into two categories. You could apply based on rolling stock type/facilities, but then potentially end up with a mix of local and regional "brands" operating the exact same service (think TfW with 150s and 158s/175s operating the same services).

With the right choice of base livery, using neutral shades like black, white, silver, grey or even pastel colours, you could still leave some room for more individually tailored branding, such as a region specific coloured stripe, coloured logo/fleetname, whilst still maintaining an overall consistency of appearance across the wider brand.
 

islandmonkey

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I would value a bit of varied colour and a bit of distinguished branding for different train services. I support all the suggestions above, the details can be fought over later. For me it's how stand-out branding can make transit more interesting and appealing. You can see this on the buses in some areas, in my area Go South Coast have really done an excellent job with this IMO.

I think the revitalisation of the GWR brand into something that fits into the 21st century looks brilliant, can't think of a current TOC that has a better colour scheme to be honest (any competitors for this?) and it would be a shame to see it go if/when GBR becomes a thing.
 

eldomtom2

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I wouldn't go quite like that, because I don't think Network SE was useful as a branding - because it didn't distinguish types of trains. I'd go more with intercity/regional/local, where:

Intercity means, Euston-Manchester or Manchester-Glasgow
Regional means, Waterloo-Portsmouth or Manchester-Windermere (could alternatively be branded semi-fast)
Local means, Waterloo-Woking or Manchester-Hazel Grove, Basically anything that travels not too far and stops everywhere (or almost everywhere).

Local services would often be managed locally and hence might sometimes be branded for the local public transport authority, but regional and intercity services would never be.

That would also potentially facilitate a more sensible variation in ticket pricing differentiation, whereby you might pay a bit more to travel on an intercity service than on a regional service between the same destinations (if the intercity service is substantially faster), but that would be the only ticket differentiation: A ticket marked intercity would be valid on all intercity (as well as slower) trains that are appropriate for that journey - you'd never for example have tickets valid only on some intercity TOCs but not others.
I don't think service type particularly makes sense as the core dividing line for branding, since there's going to be plenty of instances where, say, a unit works a "local" service followed by a "regional" service. Any GBR sub-brands will almost certainly be geographical.

On a separate note, TfL is a good example of different systems that have their own distinct identity while at the same part being a clear part of a larger brand.
 

Bletchleyite

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Broadly agree - although I think there's merit to being less strict on letting local branch lines (especially those heavily used by tourists) have a more independent streak as to use advertising.

Deutsche Bahn does that pretty well, with the red livery everywhere but prominent branding of specific routes.
 

43096

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Sometimes as well you get trains that are in between regional and InterCity

My personal thing is

InterCity Grand express (for HS2) - ICE
Intercity - London Bristol - IC
Interregional - Manchester barrow - IR
Regional - reading to Redhill - RE
Local - random branch line - RB
Commuter - Elizabeth line - S-bahn
That sounds rather like Germany or Switzerland (added in bold)...

Although I would dispute that we have much in the way of real IC services now as the onboard facilities aren't good enough.
 

PTR 444

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I can foresee the following happening:
  • A return to the Big 4 for Intercity and Regional services in England with branding based around Southern, Western, North Western and North Eastern regions. A fifth brand, Cross Country, would be used for services that cross into different regions, mainly those currently with XC and TPE.
  • Intercity services are identified with a slightly modified livery for the sector they belong to.
  • London Overground, Elizabeth Line, Merseyrail, Scotrail and Transport for Wales keep their own branding as devolved operations.
  • TfL branding is used for metro services within the London Commuter belt (as far out as Woking, Gatwick Airport, Sevenoaks etc)
  • Thameslink keeps its branding due to popular demand, although would make sense as a TfL brand
  • The c2c network keeps a distinct identity as a self-contained operation, although likely rebranded to Essex Thameside Rail. Alternatively it could be branded as part of the London Commuter network if TfL allows it.
  • Further devolution takes place in provincial cities, leading to separate brands for local services in Leeds, Newcastle, West Midlands etc.
  • Local rail services in Cornwall gain a Transport for Cornwall identity.
  • The Island Line is branded as part of the Southern Vectis network
 
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JonathanH

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TfL branding is used for metro services within the London Commuter belt (as far out as Woking, Gatwick Airport, Sevenoaks etc)
Why would TfL branding be used if they aren't operating the services? What TfL branding are you thinking of in any case? TfL clearly considers itself only answerable to Londoners - are they really who should be planning services outside London?

Thameslink keeps its branding due to popular demand, although would make sense as a TfL brand
Popular demand? Why would local services to Peterborough and Brighton make sense as a 'TfL brand', whatever that actually means?
 

PTR 444

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Why would TfL branding be used if they aren't operating the services? What TfL branding are you thinking of in any case? TfL clearly considers itself only answerable to Londoners - are they really who should be planning services outside London?


Popular demand? Why would local services to Peterborough and Brighton make sense as a 'TfL brand', whatever that actually means?
If the railways are brought together as one, it would make sense for all London metro services to be brought under one identity, even if not all of them are operated by TfL. The Elizabeth Line has the exact same function as Thameslink, yet it is managed by TfL and operated by MTR Crossrail, which goes to show that a cross-London service doesn’t need to be fully under TfL’s control to receive its corporate branding.
 

JonathanH

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The Elizabeth Line has the exact same function as Thameslink, yet it is managed by TfL and operated by MTR Crossrail, which goes to show that a cross-London service doesn’t need to be fully operated by TfL to receive its corporate branding.
The Elizabeth Line is a TfL concession. Services under the DfT's remit are not.

If the railways are brought together as one, it would make sense for all London metro services to be brought under one identity, even if not all of them are operated by TfL.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean there would be an agreement for it to be TfL coordinating things. TfL have very limited interest in any travel needs outside London.
 

PTR 444

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The Elizabeth Line is a TfL concession. Services under the DfT's remit are not.


Maybe, but that doesn't mean there would be an agreement for it to be TfL coordinating things. TfL have very limited interest in any travel needs outside London.
Okay, so I guess the DfT and/or TfL may never allow a unified London rail network to come to fruition. Going back to my earlier post about branding Intercity and regional services based on the Big 4, Thameslink is spread across the former Southern, LMS and LNER regions so wouldn’t fit in any one of the above. Thameslink I believe is also a well-recognised brand for those that use it, hence my suggestion that it will be kept due to popular demand in the new GBR era.
 

Bartsimho

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I would value a bit of varied colour and a bit of distinguished branding for different train services. I support all the suggestions above, the details can be fought over later. For me it's how stand-out branding can make transit more interesting and appealing. You can see this on the buses in some areas, in my area Go South Coast have really done an excellent job with this IMO.

I think the revitalisation of the GWR brand into something that fits into the 21st century looks brilliant, can't think of a current TOC that has a better colour scheme to be honest (any competitors for this?) and it would be a shame to see it go if/when GBR becomes a thing.
I'd say EMR's all Purple Livery is a beauty as well. With the text to say the type of train it is it could be a model for how to livery GBR.
Although some fancy liveries for branches or special services would be nice.
For Intercity trains have a standard template and then allow specific design elements depending on the depot the train comes from
E.G.: An ECML Livery with a patch of Tartan, The Tyne Bridge, York Minster and Lincoln Cathedral facing each other and something for Peterborough I can't think of at the moment
 

43096

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If the railways are brought together as one, it would make sense for all London metro services to be brought under one identity, even if not all of them are operated by TfL. The Elizabeth Line has the exact same function as Thameslink, yet it is managed by TfL and operated by MTR Crossrail, which goes to show that a cross-London service doesn’t need to be fully under TfL’s control to receive its corporate branding.
We could call it something like, say, Network SouthEast.
 

DynamicSpirit

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We could call it something like, say, Network SouthEast.

The trouble with that is, Network SouthEast wasn't only metro services: It encompassed semi-fast and even some relatively long distance services. To my mind, it makes no sense to give a London-Weymouth train the same branding as a Waterloo-Hampton Court stopper: They are very clearly different types of service, and a customer-friendly branding should reflect that.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Although I would dispute that we have much in the way of real IC services now as the onboard facilities aren't good enough.

To be fair there are no facilities on ICs in several countries such as Belgium and the Netherlands.

Manchester to Barrow is, in 1990s-DB terms, a RE - subsidised and mostly used for overlapping short trips. CrossCountry is a bit more like what InterRegio was. DB has long had some very long-run REs - I recall riding one in east Germany somewhere that had an end to end time of just over three hours.

In effect DB has had some car-like "model inflation":

ICE - has largely replaced what was IC now it's expanded so much including slower routes
IC - has become near enough what IR was minus a few uneconomic routes
IR and D (other than specials) - gone
(RE, RB, S still there as before)

With DB there's also the slight complication than ICE/IC are commercially operated without subsidy and RE/RB are tendered by the Bundeslaender. Thus there were (and probably still are) odd cases like Berchtesgaden where an IC would become a RE at a certain point due to subsidy kicking in. You could compare it in UK terms to the idea that a GWR Paddington to Penzance might in theory run commercially to Plymouth as ICE then become a RE providing a subsidised local service thereafter.

RE doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't stop at all stations", by the way, there do exist all-stations REs. The general difference was classically that RE was used for services in a local Takt and RB for randomly timed branch lines and sporadic local services on some mainlines (which do exist in Germany), though it's not totally consistent. There also used to be a StadtExpress (SE) category that was very similar to a lot of South East commuter services like Chiltern or LNR - all stations to the edge of the S-Bahn system then fast into the city, but that isn't used any more and such services mostly became either RE or S.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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Intercity means, Euston-Manchester or Manchester-Glasgow
Regional means, Waterloo-Portsmouth

Why is Euston to Manchester Intercity yet Waterloo to Portsmouth is regional. Both are linking cities and both have ‘fast’ services?
 

miklcct

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Why is Euston to Manchester Intercity yet Waterloo to Portsmouth is regional. Both are linking cities and both have ‘fast’ services?
Waterloo - Portsmouth is clearly shorter (both in terms of stop spacing and the route length).

I believe the Network SouthEast brand should be revived, but with long-distance routes like Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter removed from the brand.

My idea is that:
InterCity: all services run by LNER, Avanti; EMR Intercity, Greater Anglia London - Norwich; all GWR services run with Intercity Express Train; most TPE and CrossCountry services; South Western Railway London Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter
Network SouthEast: the 2 long-distance routes (Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter) and the local stopper routes removed, leaving only the faster services (which are clearly not local) in the network, e.g. Waterloo - Portsmouth, Bedford - Brighton, etc.
Regional Railways: anything which isn't intercity or local commuter services
S-Train (commuter trains): Local stopping services between London / Birmingham / Manchester and their immediate suburbs, some of which are candidates to be devolved to the local authority.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Waterloo - Portsmouth is clearly shorter (both in terms of stop spacing and the route length).

I believe the Network SouthEast brand should be revived, but with long-distance routes like Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter removed from the brand.

My idea is that:
InterCity: all services run by LNER, Avanti; EMR Intercity, Greater Anglia London - Norwich; all GWR services run with Intercity Express Train; most TPE and CrossCountry services; South Western Railway London Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter
Network SouthEast: the 2 long-distance routes (Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter) and the local stopper routes removed, leaving only the faster services (which are clearly not local) in the network, e.g. Waterloo - Portsmouth, Bedford - Brighton, etc.
Regional Railways: anything which isn't intercity or local commuter services
S-Train (commuter trains): Local stopping services between London / Birmingham / Manchester and their immediate suburbs, some of which are candidates to be devolved to the local authority.
Why are Waterloo to Exeter service classed as Intercity when they stop every 10 minutes beyond Salisbury which was your principle on not having Waterloo to Portsmouth as intercity?
 

miklcct

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Why are Waterloo to Exeter service classed as Intercity when they stop every 10 minutes beyond Salisbury which was your principle on not having Waterloo to Portsmouth as intercity?
Exeter clearly doesn't fit into Network SouthEast as there is no way Exeter is in the South East, while the parallel Weymouth route clearly fits Intercity standard until Southampton, similar to the Exeter route until Salisbury.

The solution is to run the train as Intercity until Southampton / Salisbury, and regional afterwards.
 

eldomtom2

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Waterloo - Portsmouth is clearly shorter (both in terms of stop spacing and the route length).

I believe the Network SouthEast brand should be revived, but with long-distance routes like Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter removed from the brand.

My idea is that:
InterCity: all services run by LNER, Avanti; EMR Intercity, Greater Anglia London - Norwich; all GWR services run with Intercity Express Train; most TPE and CrossCountry services; South Western Railway London Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter
Network SouthEast: the 2 long-distance routes (Waterloo - Weymouth / Exeter) and the local stopper routes removed, leaving only the faster services (which are clearly not local) in the network, e.g. Waterloo - Portsmouth, Bedford - Brighton, etc.
Regional Railways: anything which isn't intercity or local commuter services
S-Train (commuter trains): Local stopping services between London / Birmingham / Manchester and their immediate suburbs, some of which are candidates to be devolved to the local authority.
I don't see the point of having one geographic brand and three non-geographic brands. It made sense when they were actual business units, but when they're just brands...
 

jackot

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How about bringing back the whole concept of an Alphaline-esque service as a middle ground between the 'regional'/'NSE' services and Intercity? I always thought that was a great brand in its day for routes like Cardiff to Portsmouth.
There is no reason it couldn't be integrated into a 'regional railways' type brand, without being a completely separate operation to it.

That leaves 'Intercity' for, well, intercity routes like Avanti, XC and LNER. Each brand could have the same base livery, but with a different colourway
'Regional' for routes like branch lines, with the 'Alphaline' sub brand for semi-fast services. Again, same base livery but more autonomy as mentioned above for localised branding on some routes
And then scope as well for TfL, Scotrail and TfW to be retained as separate identities, or the prospect to bring 'Regional' services in the Southeast back to a 'Network Southeast' entity.
 

dorsetdesiro

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I predict the current English TOCs & liveries will remain to start with as GBR is slowly phased in, likely a small GBR/BR logo stuck on somewhere like a local GoAhead owned bus network, keeping its livery, with small "A GoAhead company". A Cl 444 in the SWR livery could wear a small badge at the front reading "part of the GBR family".

Then a full rebranding will happen later due to possible change of government, maybe Labour or hung govt very soon, or change of policy, can't see ScotRail and TfW taking on the GBR brand, thus complicating matters so it may be decided for to GBR to be the "overseeing body" with a different brand for a single TOC, replacing all English TOCs, introduced to sit alongside TfW, ScotRail, metro networks and open access operators etc.
 

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Then a full rebranding will happen later due to possible change of government, maybe Labour or hung govt very soon, or change of policy, can't see ScotRail and TfW taking on the GBR brand, thus complicating matters so it may be decided for to GBR to be the "overseeing body" with a different brand for a single TOC, replacing all English TOCs, introduced to sit alongside TfW, ScotRail, metro networks and open access operators etc.

I've proposed "Rail England" before. ScotRail and TfW after all are not going to foresake their brands.
 
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