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TPE franchise to move to OLR

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Masbroughlad

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In Sea Containers days, they were putting together a bid to run the GTPR, alongside GNER.

With the same standards as GNER, that would have been a corker of a company.

Join TPE with LNER now? Makes more sense than with Northern? All Intercity standard.

Ladies and gentlemen - London Northern Scotland Railway (LNSR)?!
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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They promise it every single time. Did with LNER, did with Northern, did with Southeastern. It’s nonsense intended to appease backbench Tory MPs who are ideologically opposed to the state running things.
It's actually the law, until it is changed, that TOCs are contracted to the private sector with temporary arrangements for OLR situations.
It also applies to Scotland and Wales who are still operating Scotrail and TfW under the OLR regulations.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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In Sea Containers days, they were putting together a bid to run the GTPR, alongside GNER.

With the same standards as GNER, that would have been a corker of a company.

Join TPE with LNER now? Makes more sense than with Northern? All Intercity standard.

Ladies and gentlemen - London Northern Scotland Railway (LNSR)?!
Might you consider posting that in The Future of TPE in Speculative Discussion, just because each time I get an alert for this thread I hope it's because new developments have come to light or news about the OLR take-over, but no, it's ideas of what to rename whoever takes over. I've got no authority so I'm not (and wouldn't dream of) telling you what to do, just making you aware of the speculative thread's existence :):)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It's actually the law, until it is changed, that TOCs are contracted to the private sector with temporary arrangements for OLR situations.
It also applies to Scotland and Wales who are still operating Scotrail and TfW under the OLR regulations.
Who will enforce that though? Of course, LNER has been public for five years now.
 

DanNCL

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Not sure you mean the chartered Friday service to Euston the Open Access operator, while non-OLR ToC there is also EMR serving Manchester
I think they mean the OA operators on the ECML, which are technically "North of Manchester" though not serving Manchester or points north thereof. EMR serve Manchester itself but then head west.
Correct, I was referring to the ECML open access operators. EMR run to Manchester and Doncaster but no further north than that.

No it is the law. Apart from Scotland the Minister or WG are required to franchise services. OLR is only temporary.
It's actually the law, until it is changed, that TOCs are contracted to the private sector with temporary arrangements for OLR situations.
It also applies to Scotland and Wales who are still operating Scotrail and TfW under the OLR regulations.
It's open to interpretation. Section 30 of The Railways Act 1993 requires that the DFT steps in should an operator no longer be able to continue, but doesn't specify any requirement to return those operators back to the private sector within any timescale, as such operators put under control of the OLR can be kept under OLR control indefinitely.

Due to covid and the ERMAs and now NRC all franchises are already nationalised. All that has changed is that the First Group senior maagers\directors will be replaced with consultants appointed by SNC-Lavlin.
Being government controlled doesn't mean nationalised. Nationalisation is ownership. All those TOCs on National Rail Contracts, whilst they may indeed be government controlled, are privately owned and not nationalised. Those under OLR control are owned by DFT OLR Holdings Ltd, a 100% DFT owned company and therefore qualify as nationalised.
 

Pub

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I don't think a 1974 timetable will reflect demand in 2023!
fair comment, it just goes to show how things had got better before the current problems. Younger members will not realise how bad things were in those days of class 40/45 and mk 1 stock
 

tomuk

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It's open to interpretation. Section 30 of The Railways Act 1993 requires that the DFT steps in should an operator no longer be able to continue, but doesn't specify any requirement to return those operators back to the private sector within any timescale, as such operators put under control of the OLR can be kept under OLR control indefinitely.
Section 30 states that the Minister in absence of a franchise should step in a provide service. This doesn't remove the duty under section 23 to franchise said services
Being government controlled doesn't mean nationalised. Nationalisation is ownership. All those TOCs on National Rail Contracts, whilst they may indeed be government controlled, are privately owned and not nationalised. Those under OLR control are owned by DFT OLR Holdings Ltd, a 100% DFT owned company and therefore qualify as nationalised.
I know what nationalised means in a purely legal sense. But we are talking about the reality to passengers, since covid TOCs have been government control this is defacto nationalised. Even the ONS agrees for statistical purposes.

normal franchise mechanisms have been amended, transferring almost all revenue and cost risk to the government. In addition, the TOCs have had restrictions placed on their ability to borrow money and cannot make significant changes to fares or staffing levels without government agreement. This has led the ONS to conclude that public sector control exists over them and that, in accordance with international statistical guidelines, they should be classified as public non-financial corporations

Moving to OLR control in reality only changes one set of private sector senior managers for another thet wil have yo operate in very similar DfT sanctioned manor as any other operator under an NRC.
 

DanNCL

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Section 30 states that the Minister in absence of a franchise should step in a provide service. This doesn't remove the duty under section 23 to franchise said services
Which can be complied with by a direct award of the contract for the service to DFT OLR Holdings Ltd, as has already been done with LNER.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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In Sea Containers days, they were putting together a bid to run the GTPR, alongside GNER.

With the same standards as GNER, that would have been a corker of a company.

Join TPE with LNER now? Makes more sense than with Northern? All Intercity standard.

Ladies and gentlemen - London Northern Scotland Railway (LNSR)?!
To bring it to its ultimate northern territorial naming conclusion.....London, Wick and Lybster Railway.... :D
 

jfollows

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fair comment, it just goes to show how things had got better before the current problems. Younger members will not realise how bad things were in those days of class 40/45 and mk 1 stock
Most of the hourly 1974 services were DMUs, albeit quite nice ones, there were only locomotives and coaches on the Liverpool-Newcastle services which were every 2-3 hours. But there's a different thread for this if it's important!
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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tbtc

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In fairness to ARN, they were miss led by Abelio on how much RDW was required each month. They under budgeted by a lot.

If not heard that, interesting.

People have short memories don't they?

Under VTEC morale was run into the ground, they overstretched the HST and 225 Fleet at the time by running additional services e.g. Edinburgh half hourly and a token Sunderland service, and staff shortages among TM and Catering grades were the norm. Essentially the need to pay big premiums affected the service on offer.

If this Forum is to be believed then staff morale is always low, and things tended to be better the previous operator

But I doubt that extending a Newcastle-London service at the crack of dawn to start at Sunderland and late night extension of a Newcastle terminator to Wearside was the straw that broke the camel’s back

No, it was set up and run properly by East Coast trains (OLR) with exceptional profits, reliability and passenger satisfaction - six years of hard work ruined by three years under VTEC.

East Coast didn’t have to worry about profits, so it was much easier for them than any private TOC

Essentially all they did was cancel any ambitions that National Express had, hence the cancellation of the daytime Lincoln/ Harrogate services which NXEC has already acquired the 180s for, which is the reason the 125 mph trains ended up plodding along on Northern’s Hazel Grove stoppers because EC were happier to earn a few quid subleasing them than use them to run the services National Express had earmarked
 

jfollows

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Helen Pidd in The Guardian, who has been on the case of TPE for some time now, writes today about how bad it's been trying to use TPE (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-i-tell-them-how-bad-transpennine-express-is). She finishes with the hope that it can only get better. Essentially, only those who had no choice - to move house, to change job, to walk, to drive - ended up using TPE.
Rail transport

Nobody believes me when I tell them how bad TransPennine Express is​

My and many people’s lives are being turned upside down by last-minute cancellations that make a mockery of work and family plans


Helen Pidd North of England editor
Thu 11 May 2023 16.32 BST

People in London used to think I was making it up when I told them what an ordeal it was planning a journey on TransPennine Express (TPE). It sounded so absurd. The angst began as soon as you dared to book a ticket, wondering whether the train you had chosen to get you to Manchester Airport for a flight, to Leeds for an interview or to Cleethorpes for the seaside, would actually run. The niggling feeling: maybe I should drive, just to be safe?
The night before, you needed to stay up until 10pm, when TPE would publish a list of “planned cancellations” for the following day. There were regularly 50 cancellations, sometimes 100, invariably blamed on staff shortages and sometimes the rail unions too. You’d then have to make alternative plans which might involve leaving the house before the kids woke up, booking a taxi or begging your employers to let you join by Zoom instead.


If you persisted in travelling by train, when you arrived at the station the next day, the original service you had booked would have disappeared from the departure board. It was as if it had never existed. That’s because TPE had cancelled it using what rail industry insiders call p-codes, which until very recently – and thanks in large part to the Guardian’s exposure of their abuse – were not reflected in the official cancellation statistics. Originally intended for cancellations beyond a rail operator’s control, such as after a landslide, TPE landed upon p-codes as a handy way of disguising just how appalling its service was.
I only discovered about p-coding when I wrote an opinion piece moaning about terrible northern trains, which mentioned that TPE had cancelled 5.8% of all trains in the previous 12 weeks. Someone in the know wrote in to say that the real figure was between 20% and 30%, and explained the chicanery behind p-coding.
In January, the Office of Rail and Road, the regulator, ordered TPE and other offenders to stop misusing p-codes and supply statistics that showed the full scale of misery experienced by passengers. The change was stark: for the four weeks between 5 February and 4 March, TPE’s cancellation score worsened from 7.2% to 23.8% when adjusted to include p-coding due to a shortage of available train crew.
The result is an utterly miserable experience that is leading more and more people to give up on the railways altogether and learn how to drive, buy a car, or find a new job that allows them to work from home. I’ve heard of people losing jobs, quitting college, moving house, all because of TPE’s scandalously bad service.

Only those with no alternative option – or those dedicated to public transport – continue to take the risk. Like Adam Leyton, the current world record holder for most capital cities visited in a day by public transport. On Wednesday evening he was trying to get home to Edinburgh from Manchester after 8pm. His direct train was cancelled and he ended up having to change to get to Carlisle and then take a taxi all the way to the Scottish capital. I just looked at the timetable for tonight, Thursday evening, and the same train, the 20.22 is cancelled again. Staff told him the service regularly fails to run.
Lawrence Davies, a music lecturer at the University of Liverpool, has the misfortune to rely on what he calls the “TransPantomime” to commute to work from Newcastle three times a week during term time. He was a veteran of the 10pm train check, regularly creeping out of the house at 6am and often having to change trains twice en route on what should be a direct service. The results are truly life-ruining. Less time with family, time wasted, opportunities lost. “Teaching at 3pm = 8am train, arriving 11am. Daren’t cut it finer,” he says.
The cancellations aren’t the only problem with TPE. Helen Johnson was travelling from Sheffield to Manchester on Thursday morning and the toilets were all broken. “We were told anyone needing the loo could get off at Stockport and the train would wait while they used the station toilets. Train was half the number of carriages it should have been and was terminating at Piccadilly instead of going on to Liverpool,” she says.
With the government taking over the contract, it can surely only get better – we hope.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I was going to say I remember East Coast being much nicer than LNER, but thinking about it that's probably down to me remembering IC225s with the classy blue and beige interior, instead of Azumas with the bright red and brash green PIS. :lol:
 

Trainguy34

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If previous 'nationalisations' are anything to go by, the provider will stay the same until the contract is due for renewal. Then it will go to whoever does the best bid... which may still be the same provider.

Hence Arriva still do the rail replacement (badly) for Northern, Stagecoach have LNER and Abellio have ScotRail. But Transport for Wales switched from Arriva to Abellio.
Who does southeastern?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Which can be complied with by a direct award of the contract for the service to DFT OLR Holdings Ltd, as has already been done with LNER.
That's what has happened since Covid, but the notion of repeated direct awards to the incumbent goes against the aim of subjecting bids to competition.
The EU was very unhappy about direct awards, and they were supposed to be limited to two years while competitive bids were sourced.
While the EU is not in the regulatory frame any more, the competition element is still a factor.
People are happy for First to lose TPE, but how do you boot out underperforming public sector TOCs (eg like TfW)?
 

cactustwirly

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I was going to say I remember East Coast being much nicer than LNER, but thinking about it that's probably down to me remembering IC225s with the classy blue and beige interior, instead of Azumas with the bright red and brash green PIS. :lol:
Of course that came from National Express
 

43074

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If this Forum is to be believed then staff morale is always low, and things tended to be better the previous operator

But I doubt that extending a Newcastle-London service at the crack of dawn to start at Sunderland and late night extension of a Newcastle terminator to Wearside was the straw that broke the camel’s back
That was just an example of where things were stretched a bit more. Reliability did suffer to the extent that a pair of London to Leeds trains were withdrawn from the timetable for a bit to free up a set for maintenance during the day, you seem to have very rose tinted glasses for the VTEC era.
 

josh-j

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That's what has happened since Covid, but the notion of repeated direct awards to the incumbent goes against the aim of subjecting bids to competition.
The EU was very unhappy about direct awards, and they were supposed to be limited to two years while competitive bids were sourced.
While the EU is not in the regulatory frame any more, the competition element is still a factor.
People are happy for First to lose TPE, but how do you boot out underperforming public sector TOCs (eg like TfW)?
If it's publicly owned, why not change how it's run so that performance improves? Same as any public service.

The competition element is quite ambiguois in a railway context, being just down to who offers the cheapest looking bid for a contract, nothing to do with outcompeting different rail routes or other means of transport etc. And we haven't seen this supposed competition deliver much for public transport in recent years, even though I wouldn't necessarily blame the bidding companies for that fact!
 

DanNCL

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I was going to say I remember East Coast being much nicer than LNER, but thinking about it that's probably down to me remembering IC225s with the classy blue and beige interior, instead of Azumas with the bright red and brash green PIS. :lol:
Of course that came from National Express
The blue and beige interior came from GNER.

Reliability did suffer to the extent that a pair of London to Leeds trains were withdrawn from the timetable for a bit to free up a set for maintenance during the day,
I seem to recall that actually came in the early days of LNER rather than with VTEC, but yes that was down to VTEC's over optimistic diagramming of the Mark 4 fleet.

So what/who/which people/departments will be removed/replaced?
First Group leave the picture. Beyond that it isn't yet clear, the OLR may keep the existing senior management team or they may bring in a new team. Front line employees and middle management will TUPE over.
 
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On a lighter note, it seems that, in an unusual display of competence when reporting rail matters, the photo accompanying the BBC News report about this story actually is of a TPE train (and not, say, a SouthEastern or an SWR train because some reporter can't tell the difference ;) )
Unlike the Guardian Christian Wolmar article that has a picture of a TPE train loaned out on a Northern Rail Service to Barrow-in-Furness


 
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