Northern line train evacuation at Clapham Common

[Peter Mugridge]

it's certainly not a good policy, but I believe the extinguishers were taken out of service due to anti social behaviour + the very little risk of a fire starting physically in the carriage

They still carry extinguishers in the cabs.

 

[Turtle]

I assume that RAIB have no interest in this incident as cannot see any activity on their behalf. A pity as it seems some investigation needs to be carried out. Any TFL investigation won't be published as no doubt Mayor Khant will sit on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

Please explain why you the Mayor would sit on any report. By the way there's no "t" in his surname, or am I missing something.

 

[cemdog]

They still carry extinguishers in the cab.

Yes this is true. But all carriages had extinguishers pre 2000, the decision was made to remove them from carriages around 1999.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/477345.stm <---

 

[321over360]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

Please explain why you the Mayor would sit on any report. By the way there's no "t" in his surname, or am I missing something.

Khant is a common term people in London are now referring to him by due to his inability to actually do anything useful for London

 

[londonteacher]

Khant is a common term people in London are now referring to him by due to his inability to actually do anything useful for London

Actually some people in London, not everyone. Not everyone thinks Khan has done a bad job. Conservative government, Labour Mayor - I can’t think of a reason why it may be be! Off topic though.

Yes with hindsight and full knowledge of the events people may have overreacted. However, as others have said, in instances where some people react to stimuli in a certain way then others will follow.

I myself have been in a situation where about 20 people have ran past me (both adults and teenagers) screaming and then others, myself included, followed. After speaking with them they said they had heard what sounded like gun fire. Turned out it was just a false alarm. However, the police were called and swept the complex. It is a researched psychological theory called the bandwagon theory.

 

[Enthusiast]

It is a researched psychological theory called the bandwagon theory.

aka "panic".

 

[Chris M]

I assume that RAIB have no interest in this incident as cannot see any activity on their behalf. A pity as it seems some investigation needs to be carried out. Any TFL investigation won't be published as no doubt Mayor Khant will sit on it.

It's still too early to say they definitely won't be investigating. It's only been 6 days since the incident, and of their last 10 posts about new investigations/digests only one has appeared less than 14 days after the incident - 39 days, 19 days, 14 days, 17 days, 32 days, 16 days, 1 day, 31 days, 17 days and 24 days. The one posted the following day was the major derailment near Carlisle, my guess is that that is the only one they are legally obliged to investigate. In the other cases they will be waiting for the results of the preliminary investigation before deciding whether there is likely to be any new safety learning (their criteria for investigating). As this incident was very similar to the one they investigated at Holland Park a few months shy of 10 years ago they'll also be looking closely at their recommendations and judging whether anything hasn't been implemented. Most of the recommendations called for reviews of procedures and competencies, and studies into changes to the passenger alarm system; those are not things you can judge just by watching video footage and examining a train.

TfL's report will be available under the FOI once it is completed. I don't know how long it will take them, but I think they are a bit quicker than the RAIB (I'm in the process of compiling some stats about RAIB reports, I've only got as far as July 2012 so far but from their beginning in 2015 until then they published full reports an average of 333 days after the incident; the Holland Park report was published 337 days after the incident.)

 

[Domh245]

It may as well be locked however when the train is full & standing during the rush hour, but this would again be no different to a walkthrough train at that point!

Interesting to see the BBC reporting on the official TfL report this morning:

A week ago there was a serious incident on the London Underground at Clapham Common station.
Passengers travelling on northbound Tube train 51554 in the early evening of 5 May described a strong burning smell in a carriage and, after there was no communication, mass panic set in.
Those who experienced what happened now want the procedures around how incidents like this are dealt with reviewed by Transport for London (TfL), which itself has said it "would never operate an unsafe railway".
Dan Beglin was one of those "packed in like sardines" on the train.
He said: "We started smelling burning and then we leave the platform and about two seconds later the train comes to a halt and I've got a woman falling into me and then we just stand there.
"There was no communication from the driver, no communication from the station staff. I don't think they knew what was going on either."
In a letter to local politicians, TfL said: "The acrid smell may have worried customers on the platform, who activated the station fire alarms. The customer fire alarms set off an automatic message to evacuate the station.
"It was following this announcement that customers became distressed and attempted to force the doors and smashed windows on the train."
The official report into what happened - which the BBC has seen - shows it was treated as a category one incident.
Fire alarms were activated at 17:44 BST. The timeline shows the situation then escalated quickly and minutes after the train came to a stop passengers started to try and get out of the windows.
The report says workmen used tools to break windows as passengers, who thought the train was on fire, panicked.
One of the issues for those inside the carriage was the doors were not opened as the train was halfway into a tunnel. Opening the doors would have meant people falling on to live tracks.
Mr Beglin said the lack of communication did not help. "It was abysmal communication," he said.
"We had people in my carriage trying to pry our doors open, someone said they were scared and someone said they were panicking and someone got between the gaps of the carriages.
"Then people started breaking windows on the Tube as they were that desperate to get out."
It's not clear what caused the smell. The report says the area is well known for brake abrasion dust, or it possibly could have been a malfunctioning fan.
In the report, staff say the smell was strong. With mass panic breaking out, it would have been very difficult for them to find out exactly what was happening.
TfL believes the acrid smell was caused by debris, which had collected on a component of the train that became hot.
Transport unions have raised concerns about staffing levels at this and other stations. It is thought three members of staff were at the station that evening - one in the control room, one on the gate-line and one on the platform.
The member of staff on the platform had to deal with two trains at the same time as a southbound train had also arrived.
That meant there was just one staff member dealing with the panic happening on the platform. Other more senior staff were called in later.
After the incident, the Aslef union said: "Trade Unions have long warned that cuts to staff on TfL risk passenger safety. This evening's wholly avoidable panic at Clapham Common show just how important properly staffed stations are."

'Appallingly handled'​

The report says the incident started at 17:44, London Fire Bridge arrived at 17:59 and checked the carriage with thermal imaging at 18:07. There was no fire.
Mr Beglin believes the situation could have been much worse.
"It was pretty appallingly handled. It could have been a trample," he said.
"If it was an actual fire, I dread to think what would have happened. People could have possibly died. It was poorly handled and for the British Transport Police to say there were no injuries - psychologically. It was quite scary."
There is no doubt this was an extremely difficult, unusual situation where mass panic overwhelmed protocols. TfL has apologised and has launched an investigation.
A TfL spokesperson said: "Safety is our number one priority and we would never operate an unsafe railway.
"Our station staff were on the platform within 90 seconds and immediately began the process of releasing the doors.
"Customers from both trains in the platforms and the rest of the station were then evacuated by the station team very quickly in line with our safety procedures."
But those who were on the train say the incident does raise many questions about procedures, staffing levels and, ultimately, passenger safety.

 

[endicomark69@g]

Khant is a common term people in London are now referring to him by due to his inability to actually do anything useful for London

And by common you mean Tufton St/Central office have taken over six years (and probably paid a jobbing Stand-Up five figures) to come up with a not-at-all racially slanted dig that gets sent out to see if the Usual Suspects can get it to trend in the ongoing disinfo war against a Labour Mayor. Any Labour Mayor, but especially this one.

Seems to have worked on you at least.

This particular incident highlights a great many things, most of them not good. But especially the fact that destaffing deep level Tube Stations and carrying so many positions vacant is extremely stupid as a policy, and likely to turn out to be extremely dangerous in practice as time goes on and the laws of probability take over.

 

[LOL The Irony]

15 minutes between the incident occurring and LFB arriving isn't brilliant.

 

[lonogrol]

The sections between the doors on platform screens are also doors, with an emergency exit bar to be pushed to open them.

Not on the Jubilee line. You may be thinking of the Elizabeth line where some of the screens have push bar to open, but on the Jubilee line they are fixed glass panels.

Jubilee line extension platforms have a kit for the use of appropriately trained station staff which contains equipment for breaking the glass (as well as protective wear for the staff member).

 

[Towers]

Jubilee line extension platforms have a kit for the use of appropriately trained station staff which contains equipment for breaking the glass (as well as protective wear for the staff member).

Hmm. That sounds like a fast and efficient way of getting potentially hundreds of people out in an emergency…

 

[C96]

… And requires the presence of staff on the platform.
Would dread to think how long that would take to get to shall they not miraculously be ok the platform in question already.

 

[saxsux]

RAIB have announced they are investigating

[Withdrawn] Uncontrolled evacuation of a train at Clapham Common Underground station

Investigation into an incident at Clapham Common station on London Underground’s Northern Line, 5 May 2023.

www.gov.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

RAIB have announced they are investigating

[Withdrawn] Uncontrolled evacuation of a train at Clapham Common Underground station

Investigation into an incident at Clapham Common station on London Underground’s Northern Line, 5 May 2023.

www.gov.uk

Been a while since the event so im surmising RAIB have taken a look at what LUL have to say about the event and have determined a more though deep dive is appropriate hence full investigation. This is a positive as i said above whatever the circumstances surrounding the behaviour of passengers the event none the less showed up a possible outcome should it have been a proper fire so good opportunity to stress test adequacy or not of LULs existing arrangements.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

RAIB have announced they are investigating

[Withdrawn] Uncontrolled evacuation of a train at Clapham Common Underground station

Investigation into an incident at Clapham Common station on London Underground’s Northern Line, 5 May 2023.

www.gov.uk

I'd imagine one of thier recommendations will be emergency door releases both internally and externally or a variation there of.

 

[Daniel]

I'd imagine one of thier recommendations will be emergency door releases both internally and externally or a variation there of.

Here's the RAIB report into Holland Park, a similarly titled incident of "Uncontrolled evacuation of a London Underground train at Holland Park station"

https://assets.publishing.service.g...74a429000016f/R162014_140728_Holland_Park.pdf

You will note that their recommendations did not include adding new emergency door releases, nor a study into the consideration of the installation of these.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Here's the RAIB report into Holland Park, a similarly titled incident of "Uncontrolled evacuation of a London Underground train at Holland Park station"

https://assets.publishing.service.g...74a429000016f/R162014_140728_Holland_Park.pdf

You will note that their recommendations did not include adding new emergency door releases, nor a study into the consideration of the installation of these.

It should be looked at. There will be a scenario where a rapid evacuation of a train will be required.
In Australia it's been standard basically since the Waterfall crash. Modern versions have a 20 second delay built in to allow the driver to override it.

 

[WAB]

It should be looked at. There will be a scenario where a rapid evacuation of a train will be required.
In Australia it's been standard basically since the Waterfall crash. Modern versions have a 20 second delay built in to allow the driver to override it.

Does Australia have limited clearance tunnels with electrified rails like the tube?

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Does Australia have limited clearance tunnels with electrified rails like the tube?

Certainly have limited clearance tunnels yes. 3rd and 4th rails no.

 

[Lucan]

I myself have been in a situation where about 20 people have ran past me ... then others, myself included, followed. ... Turned out it was just a false alarm. .... It is a researched psychological theory called the bandwagon theory.

aka "panic".

No, it is logical to move away yourself. If people are running in a direction screaming, the balance of probability is that there is some danger in the direction they are coming from, so it makes sense for yourself to move away from that direction too.

I am about the least panicable person you could imagine, and also very averse to crowds. I would not join directly into a running crowd in that situation (too much chance of tripping over each other) but instead I would run on my own in a somewhat oblique direction if possible, turning corners around buildings to make dog-legs in my course and put walls between me and the possible danger. And if I were in a train stopped unusually and the carriage started filling with smoke, I would smash a window and get out, whatever the rules say.

 

[Cowley]

Ok no more of the Khan stuff or discussions around his name. It’s not relevant whatsoever to this thread.

Thanks!

 

[philthetube]

Seems to me that if the tunnels had been kept clean there would have been no incident. The 95 stock does not use friction brakes until doing 8 miles an hour, very little brake dust from that.

 

[Mawkie]

Seems to me that if the tunnels had been kept clean there would have been no incident. The 95 stock does not use friction brakes until doing 8 miles an hour, very little brake dust from that.

Is it possible a friction brake was "hanging on"...?

 

[ATS3]

Given the damage caused to the train following the unauthorised evacuation hopefully at least some of the passengers can be identified and charged with criminal damage and or pursued civilly for damages.

in an emergency peopleneed to follow staffinstructions. Panicking helps noo e and makes the situation worse as an be seen on this occasion.

I bet you'd be the one that sit tightly in a burning house waiting for the firefighters to rescue you while your room fills with smoke... what a ridiculous statement

 

[Bletchleyite]

I bet you'd be the one that sit tightly in a burning house waiting for the firefighters to rescue you while your room fills with smoke... what a ridiculous statement

I think Grenfell Tower has done serious damage to the idea of people waiting for safe evacuation from anything - the trust in the authorities has totally gone.

 

[ATS3]

I think Grenfell Tower has done serious damage to the idea of people waiting for safe evacuation from anything - the trust in the authorities has totally gone.

Spot on, I'd certainly be finding a way out as soon as I can, and these people did exactly that. Some of the wider rail community need to understand that people can have claustrophobia and even if not any fire in such a small area would get people's minds racing.

 

[bramling]

Spot on, I'd certainly be finding a way out as soon as I can, and these people did exactly that. Some of the wider rail community need to understand that people can have claustrophobia and even if not any fire in such a small area would get people's minds racing.

The only thing is, in this case there was no fire. Indeed my understanding is there wasn’t even smoke, just a strong burning smell.

These trains have always given out burning smells at times. In times past it was common, if not standard, practice for drivers to get the speed off the clock between High Barnet and Totteridge southbound, which with heavy braking from potentially 60 mph would give a very strong burning smell. Although the trains have regenerative braking, this relies on the traction current system being able to accept the regenerated energy, otherwise it reverts to being dissipated as heat. It doesn’t take too much imagination to consider what this smells like if the driver has just slammed the brakes on full service from 60+ mph, especially if there’s some dirt on the resistors. This particular practice is firmly in the past, but it’s still possible to heat up the brakes on these trains at times.

I have a suspicion that the bigger issue in this incident was the fire panel on the station being put into evac by people pressing call points on the platform (from where any burning smell would have been very evident). The panel going into evac puts an evacuation message on the station PA which is designed to sound urgent, and of course which people on the train would have heard.

For their part, LU do not publicise much information on what to do in an emergency, which is quite surprising really. Indeed certain trains used to have quite detailed posters - the 59 stock certainly did, and so did the 92 stock when new. By contrast the information displayed on the 95 stock is pretty basic. It isn’t something many passengers give much thought to, which is always going to cause a problem on the rare occasions something does happen. One day LU are going get burned by this IMO.

 

[ATS3]

The only thing is, in this case there was no fire. Indeed my understanding is there wasn’t even smoke, just a strong burning smell.

These trains have always given out burning smells at times. In times past it was common, if not standard, practice for drivers to get the speed off the clock between High Barnet and Totteridge southbound, which with heavy braking from potentially 60 mph would give a very strong burning smell. Although the trains have regenerative braking, this relies on the traction current system being able to accept the regenerated energy, otherwise it reverts to being dissipated as heat. It doesn’t take too much imagination to consider what this smells like if the driver has just slammed the brakes on full service from 60+ mph, especially if there’s some dirt on the resistors. This particular practice is firmly in the past, but it’s still possible to heat up the brakes on these trains at times.

I have a suspicion that the bigger issue in this incident was the fire panel on the station being put into evac by people pressing call points on the platform (from where any burning smell would have been very evident). The panel going into evac puts an evacuation message on the station PA which is designed to sound urgent, and of course which people on the train would have heard.

Perhaps but we need to wait for the RIAB report to detail exactly what happened, I'm just talking broadly here.

 

[LUYMun]

Spot on, I'd certainly be finding a way out as soon as I can, and these people did exactly that. Some of the wider rail community need to understand that people can have claustrophobia and even if not any fire in such a small area would get people's minds racing.

Leaving the train is one matter, doing so while a mass panic ensues is another.