TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[geoffk]

The current edition of Today's Railways UK has an editorial on the proposed abolition of the Travelcard. Arguments stated in its favour are its flexibility and convenience for those who want to take a more circuitous route than would be recognised by Oyster/contactless, who are stopping to take photographs or visit a cafe inside the gateline and don't want to have to worry about being timed out. Many similar tickets are offered by capital cities across Europe and they are often for 24 hours rather than one day and just need to be validated on the first journey. It's suggested that a Travelcard could be offered on an app or added to Oyster as an alternative to keeping the paper version.

There is a consultation running until 23rd May at https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/travelcards and perhaps we should all put in our two pennyworth.

 

[fandroid]

A one day ticket from Reading to London with Travelcard is already £29.60 (without railcard discount), just how much more do they think people will stomach just for a day out?

This is ingenuous. It's like the media always picking the Anytime Return fare to Manchester when they want to bash the railways. Anyone who does more than a few trips to London a year from Reading is going to have at least a Network Railcard and pay £19.50. That's great value given the speed of travel, frequency of services and distance covered both ways.

 

[plugwash]

Embankment to Waterloo (and especially Waterloo East) is one of those OSIs that I wish they didn't provide. But 60 odd people did Waterloo every day in Feb/March according to the latest report from TfL, analysed at https://oysterfares.com/most-used-osis-march-2023/.

The question is how many of those OSIs are intentional OSIs and how many of them are unintentional OSIs.

The time limits for tube->rail OSIs at the London Terminals are very long, presumablly due to a combination of station design (waiting areas outside the gate line) and service patterns (infrequent), which leads to an increased chance of unintentional OSIs.

 

[reddragon]

I frequently use the one day travelcard from out on the GWR. This is weekdays for work at peak rates, weekends with the family.

I travel up on a mix of GWR local service, GWR fasts, Elizabeth Line and occasionally on SWT to Waterloo.

In London, I travel unusual routes to odd locations for work and multiple locations. Only the 1 day travelcard is a viable option for me, I'd rather a higher fare than no travelcard option. I've spent whole days flitting around sites, hardly removing my ticket from my pocket. How on earth will PAYG deal with that? When doing track visits, I'm sometimes within the gates for hours!

The proposed withdrawal will have 2 effects. Work visits will switch to the car in many cases due to the hassle of multi tickets, fines (not reimbursed as expenses) and leisure trips will just switch away from London. Driving my EV is already a damn sight cheaper than the train!

 

[MrJeeves]

Others will be thankful they have had cheaper fares for the last few years, and simplification hasn't occurred.

Hello! I like my ~£10 travelcard with my railcard, thanks!

 

[JonathanH]

Hello! I like my ~£10 travelcard with my railcard, thanks!

Indeed, shame TfL don't.

 

[MikeWM]

The question is how many of those OSIs are intentional OSIs and how many of them are unintentional OSIs.

The time limits for tube->rail OSIs at the London Terminals are very long, presumablly due to a combination of station design (waiting areas outside the gate line) and service patterns (infrequent), which leads to an increased chance of unintentional OSIs.

This is a good example of a whole load of highly complex stuff I've never had to learn about, because I've always used travelcards.

I've no desire whatever to learn all this complication in order to have an interesting time in London at weekends (and then not spend much of the following week on the phone with TfL trying to work out who has screwed up what). My life is far too complex as it is, I want to relax when I'm doing leisure activities.

Instead I'll just go somewhere else, and TfL will get zero.

 

[tomuk]

Firstly by raising TfL prices by an average of 5.9%, now proposing axing the highly popular one day travelcard.

It isn't highly popular only a small proportion of journeys are made on one day travelcards. Most people use contactless or Oyster. This is especially true of Londoners of whom he is electorally responsible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2023 ==

This is a good example of a whole load of highly complex stuff I've never had to learn about, because I've always used travelcards.

I've no desire whatever to learn all this complication in order to have an interesting time in London at weekends (and then not spend much of the following week on the phone with TfL trying to work out who has screwed up what). My life is far too complex as it is, I want to relax when I'm doing leisure activities.

If your leisure activities are shopping, visiting a museum, eating out, watching sport, going to the theatre etc you will not be required to learn any complication or spend any time conversing with the TfL call centre and it might be cheaper. If you leisure time is spent bashing units or spotting at the end of platform you may run into problems.

 

[MikeWM]

This is especially true of Londoners of whom he is electorally responsible.

Discouraging tourists isn't going to help the economy of London very much.

If your leisure activities are shopping, visiting a museum, eating out, watching sport, going to the theatre etc you will not be required to learn any complication or spend any time conversing with the TfL call centre and it might be cheaper. If you leisure time is spent bashing units or spotting at the end of platform you may run into problems.

I've read more than enough reports of people on here and elsewhere, encountering problems with the payment taken for their journey, often very simple journeys. Which simply can't happen with a travelcard.

 

[tomuk]

I've read more than enough reports of people on here and elsewhere, encountering problems with the payment taken for their journey, often very simple journeys. Which simply can't happen with a travelcard.

Did you also receive reports from the millions of people completing journeys daily with no issue?

 

[winks]

The Day Travelcard was good while it lasted...

I enjoyed its convenience, flexibility, ease of use (no messing around trying to remember to tap yellow/pink validators), the reassurance of having a physical ticket in my pocket, not worrying about max journey times, etc, etc.

I've said my 2p worth on their "consultation", but even with that, I had to register first to make my comment.

RIP Travelcard.

You don’t have to register. I posted my comment as a “guest” so to speak. I’m glad people are commenting on the proposal to withdraw this. Seriously there can’t by ANYONE wanting this to be removed….

 

[reddragon]

You don’t have to register. I posted my comment as a “guest” so to speak. I’m glad people are commenting on the proposal to withdraw this. Seriously there can’t by ANYONE wanting this to be removed….

The Conservative Party has directed this as part of the funding package, so someone who enjoys the free use of a chauffeur driven car clearly does want this!

 

[miklcct]

If your leisure activities are shopping, visiting a museum, eating out, watching sport, going to the theatre etc you will not be required to learn any complication or spend any time conversing with the TfL call centre and it might be cheaper. If you leisure time is spent bashing units or spotting at the end of platform you may run into problems.

I spent a lot of time dealing with mis-touches in the past because of unclear instructions (e.g. I didn't know I had to touch out and in when changing trains between different stations) and/or delays.

A delay on the Overground service on a zone 2 only orbital route can easily take you over the time limit.

 

[winks]

If companies such as SWR / Southern want to keep leisure patrionage which may use the Day Travelcard into London then *if* the Travelcard is scrapped they should be able to offer an alternative ticket.

Do we know when a decision is due from TfL ?

 

[JonathanH]

Do we know when a decision is due from TfL ?

The decision has effectively been made. The only question is what mitigation they may need to put in place for any groups adversely affected. The request for information from users is to glean who will be adversely affected.

It needs to go to the DfT later in the year to get approval.

If companies such as SWR / Southern want to keep leisure patrionage which may use the Day Travelcard into London then *if* the Travelcard is scrapped they should be able to offer an alternative ticket.

The alternative ticket is an off-peak day return to London Terminals, or using Oyster / Contactless.

 

[tomuk]

I didn't know I had to touch out and in when changing trains between different stations

I assume these were open stations as how else would you get through any barriers? TfL are pretty explicit about touching in and out.

 

[Mojo]

And yet TfL happily subsidise the tube from bus fares.

I’m presuming you mean it the other way round? It is London Underground that makes a small operating surplus, and the bus network that makes a heavy loss.

 

[181]

If your leisure activities are shopping, visiting a museum, eating out, watching sport, going to the theatre etc you will not be required to learn any complication or spend any time conversing with the TfL call centre and it might be cheaper.

On my last visit to London before Covid, I was making the fairly conventional journey back to Paddington after the fairly conventional activity of visiting a friend. I entered Barbican station with my Travelcard, made my way to the platform and boarded a train which had just arrived; only then was it announced that it wasn't going any further for the time being (signalling probems, I think). I left the station, walked down the road to St. Paul's and got on the Central Line to Lancaster Gate. Maybe if I'd been using Oyster/Contactless the system would have sorted it out for me, but as an occasional user I certainly wouldn't have been confident of that.

A delay on the Overground service on a zone 2 only orbital route can easily take you over the time limit.

A system which charges you extra for the privilege of being delayed, or even causes you to worry that it might, seems somewhat flawed to me.

Most people use contactless or Oyster. This is especially true of Londoners of whom he is electorally responsible.

I wonder whether the chance of being overcharged is in fact much less than it seems to those unfamiliar with the system, or whether the average Londoner knows (by experience or by taking the time to study the rules) how to avoid it, or whether the average Londoner just doesn't notice or doesn't care if they occasionally get overcharged.

This is a good example of a whole load of highly complex stuff I've never had to learn about, because I've always used travelcards.

I've no desire whatever to learn all this complication in order to have an interesting time in London at weekends (and then not spend much of the following week on the phone with TfL trying to work out who has screwed up what).

I'm sure I could get my head round it if I tried -- it might even turn out to be interesting -- and it wouldn't stop my occasional visits to London, but it does seem an unnecessary complication.

The alternative ticket is an off-peak day return to London Terminals, or using Oyster / Contactless.

Which may well cause TFL to receive less money -- if I'm probably just going to be making a simple return journey in Zone 1, I might currently buy a Travelcard for the convenience and flexibility, but without that option Oyster/Contactless would I think be slightly cheaper unless I make a 3rd journey, and if I just walk that will be cheaper still.

 

[PeterC]

I've read more than enough reports of people on here and elsewhere, encountering problems with the payment taken for their journey, often very simple journeys. Which simply can't happen with a travelcard.

If you went by reports here you would never travel by train as you were bound to get a penalty fare despite having a valid ticket

 

[MikeWM]

If you went by reports here you would never travel by train as you were bound to get a penalty fare despite having a valid ticket

If you don't distinguish between posters who are unfamiliar with the complexities asking for help from those who are, and people who know the complexities but fall foul of them anyway, then that would be true I guess. But while I don't see much of the latter *in general* with regard to simple railway matters - at least as far as paper tickets are involved - I do see quite a bit when it comes to Oyster/contactless travel.

The London system is far, far too complicated, with validators, OSIs, maximum fares, and all the rest. I have none of those concerns with a paper travelcard, it is valid everywhere to do whatever I want without having to think.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The London system is far, far too complicated

For nearly all journeys it is as simple as "you tap in, you tap out".
If you want a cheaper non-Z1 fare, you tap on a pink reader. I don't think it can really be simpler for nearly every imaginable journey.

 

[MikeWM]

For nearly all journeys it is as simple as "you tap in, you tap out".

Until something goes wrong, as eg. above where you have to (or indeed *want* to) change plans after going through a gateline. Trivial with a paper travelcard, very much not so with oyster/contactless.

 

[Haywain]

I contacted my MP about this, and below is the letter she has sent to TfL and to London Travelwatch.

Dear Mayor and Deputy Mayor (Transport),

I would like to object to the proposal to withdraw the Day Travelcard and have been contacted by a number of constituents on this matter. The Travelcards are popular for off-peak travel both within London and when bought as part of a return ticket from out-of-zone stations such as Luton and Luton Airport Parkway in my constituency.

This proposal will have an impact on those who use day travelcards; they are typically commuters travelling off peak or less often, day trippers, and students. In addition, while a railcard will be applicable to the London return journey, the additional journeys in London could potentially raise a weekend super off peak day trip by over 50%.

Those with weekly and annual cards, such as the better paid business workers, may continue to use travelcards and receive their benefits. It seems that this will have a disproportionate impact on day trippers and the less well-off. This will particularly affect families, those travelling in groups and holders of Network Railcards as none of those can benefit from the same discounts when using PAYG or Oyster cards.

There would be the additional inconvenience of passengers having to buy additional tickets from London Terminii on their arrival within the TfL area.

While I recognise TfL is being put in the position of raising additional finance due to the government’s economic policy, it has been suggested that one option to raise an additional £40m from the 15 million Day Travelcards would be to increase the cost of their cost by £3. This would of course impact on the cost of living rather than increasing the subsidy to TfL from HM Treasury taxation.

I also found it difficult to respond to the proposal with a comment or contribution as TfL frames it as a ‘discussion’ or ‘engagement’ and where one can only ask a question as if the decision on this matter has already been made.

I am copying this correspondence to London Travelwatch and hope they will be responding to this proposal in similar terms to my constituents.

I look forward to a reply to my correspondence in due course and hope that TfL will withdraw this proposal.

Yours sincerely,

Rachel Hopkins MP
Luton South

 

[bakerstreet]

I contacted my MP about this, and below is the letter she has sent to TfL and to London Travelwatch.

What a good MP you have.

 

[Hadders]

I contacted my MP about this, and below is the letter she has sent to TfL and to London Travelwatch.

That’s a decent letter to be fair. I wish my MP was as on the ball!

 

[Haywain]

That’s a decent letter to be fair. I wish my MP was as on the ball!

I'd like to claim some credit for the information I furnished her with, but she (and/or her team) have looked at it and understood the situation very well.

 

[Mgameing123]

One thing that's particularly annoying about this (well, at least to me personally) is that it removes flexibility from some journeys. I work in Shepherd's Bush and on the occasions when I need to travel to the office I'll usually buy the Travelcard because it allows me to either travel into Euston and take the tube, or use the Southern WLL service to Shepherd's Bush NR station. If I was buying rail tickets separately I'd be limited to one route or the other because there's no other ticket that allows both - Shepherd's Bush isn't a London Terminal.

Can't you just get a ticket to Shepherd's Bush. It would be valid on all routes.

 

[zero]

Not sure if this has been proposed before but I think a lot of the problems raised with the system being too complex, could be solved by making the maximum fare part of the daily (and weekly) caps.

The system would otherwise continue to work as today, you would touch at gatelines and pink readers and whatever, and the backend system would charge you accordingly.

But if your touches don't add up to a coherent set of journeys then it can charge you for where it thinks you travelled, but in the worst case scenario you get charged the daily cap, i.e. what a day travelcard costs (or should cost).

Since all caps involve Zone 1, the cap applied would be for the highest "zone" (including the "not-really-zones" like Reading) that you touched a reader in. The only real rule would be that you must touch a reader before you start travelling that day. As long as you did that you would pass a revenue inspection.

I don't think this would lead to additional opportunities for fare evasion, as you can already do things like touch in at Paddington, go to Reading, not touch out and get on a GWR train for which you have a ticket.

Of course it would be easier to just be able to buy a one-day travelcard on Oyster or a contactless account, but TfL doesn't seem to want that for some reason.

There would be no more paper travelcards but the publicity could say "don't worry, even if you don't understand where you are supposed to touch or forget to touch then you still won't pay more than the daily cap".

 

[Deerfold]

Not sure if this has been proposed before but I think a lot of the problems raised with the system being too complex, could be solved by making the maximum fare part of the daily (and weekly) caps.

Since all caps involve Zone 1, the cap applied would be for the highest "zone" (including the "not-really-zones" like Reading) that you touched a reader in.

All daily caps include zone 1, but not all weekly caps do.

 

[tomuk]

Until something goes wrong, as eg. above where you have to (or indeed *want* to) change plans after going through a gateline. Trivial with a paper travelcard, very much not so with oyster/contactless.

No you just tap out again and in most cases you will be charged correctly.