TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[paul1609]

But that doesn't make sense, as surely if you were walking to your destination you'd not buy a Travelcard at all, but rather a return to the relevant London terminus.

It does if you want to upsell a return to a travelcard. The premium has to reflect the likely usage of the travel card. For me as Youf the extra journeys would most likely only have included a single tube journey or a couple of bus hops. Typically a London trip would have included arriving at Charing Cross then a tube up to Oxford Street then a pub crawl back via Leicester Square and Covent Garden before a last pub usually the coal hole at the cross before a late train back to Kent.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If you're concerned about the impact of this proposal can I recommend that you contact your MP about it, emphasising the negative effect. I have spoken to my MP this evening and they are unaware of this, in spite of being just 30 miles from London.

Completely ridiculous idea. My MP has been informed and that intend to respond to the consultation

My MP has already lodged an objection to the proposals.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Could they? For the tube I assume yes, but Crossrail is a mainline rail service (and, outside the core, runs on NR track) so I would think it’s obligated to participate in National Rail ticketing.

If Thameslink and Crossrail are available to National Rail ticket holders to buy point to point tickets (at the moment if you enter Worthing to Tottenham Court Road Elizabeth Line it tries to sell you a Travelcard) then frankly I generally only need to be in one area when I visit London and will probably be able to bypass TFL services, hence giving them no money.

In the past when I have been commuting daily to London I didn't take up the Travelcard option on my monthly ticket as I was able to get off at City Thameslink and walk to the office and had an Oyster card for when I occasionally ventured further.

Not absolutely convinced this is going to be the money maker TFL think it will be other than tourists.

 

[RJ]

So if this happens, how will this affect ticketing policy within London?

Will Off Peak Day Single and Return tickets be reinstated for travel between stations in Zones 1-6? That would bring some benefits to people who currently buy inboundary Travelcards, including cheaper tickets and Groupsave and maybe flat rate child fares.

At the moment, families and groups within London get a worse deal than those outside, as outboundary passengers get Groupsave, Family Travelcards and flat rate child tickets. Of course those people could benefit if they knew they could buy from a different station but in my experience 99.9% of passengers won’t ask for that at the ticket office.

For some journeys I’ve sold a Travelcard as it’s cheaper than the cheapest single, usually for a one way journey to somewhere outside of London.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

In the past when I have been commuting daily to London I didn't take up the Travelcard option on my monthly ticket as I was able to get off at City Thameslink and walk to the office and had an Oyster card for when I occasionally ventured further.

There's a huge difference in the types of customers that buy period travelcards (which are staying) and day travelcards.

 

[CyrusWuff]

So if this happens, how will this affect ticketing policy within London?

I suspect the short answer is that it won't, given the main justification is that most Londoners are now using Oyster or Contactless, and TfL essentially can't afford to keep subsidising cheap tickets for visitors to London.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect the short answer is that it won't, given the main justification is that most Londoners are now using Oyster or Contactless, and TfL essentially can't afford to keep subsidising cheap tickets for visitors to London.

That post is about the non-TfL services within the Travelcard zones. At the very least, where child flat fares are available on the same routes outside the zones it would make sense to extend these.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably hence the lower price to encourage higher sales with less demand.

It's not a viable upsell if it doesn't cost more. Offering more for less isn't great business practice unless it's less than a competitor.

 

[Fleetmaster]

I suspect the short answer is that it won't, given the main justification is that most Londoners are now using Oyster or Contactless, and TfL essentially can't afford to keep subsidising cheap tickets for visitors to London.

And yet TfL happily subsidise the tube from bus fares. People in Amersham essentially get super cheap commuter rail off the backs of long suffering suburban London bus passengers, many of whom live miles from a tube station.

 

[SussexSeagull]

There's a huge difference in the types of customers that buy period travelcards (which are staying) and day travelcards.

True but when I am in London for leisure purposes I tend to buy myself a one day travelcard without thinking even if I don't get my money's worth. For example if I go into Victoria to watch a concert at Hyde Park I almost certainly buy one just in case I need it then walk there and back. If this happens I will just buy a return ticket. If I watch something off The Strand I got into the habit during Covid to get Thameslink to City Thameslink then walk across rather than the tube to Embankment. Granted going up to Wembley Stadium without using a TFL service is tricky.

If passengers are given the straight choice between National Rail and TFL destinations, large parts of Central London are now reachable via Thameslink and Crossrail. Al this does is discourage people from exploring further.

To people saying why should London residents subsidise visitors, they are spending money in your city and surely it would make more sense for TFL to ask for a bigger share or just raise the price of one day Travelcards rather than this retrograde step?

 

[JonathanH]

If you're concerned about the impact of this proposal can I recommend that you contact your MP about it, emphasising the negative effect. I have spoken to my MP this evening and they are unaware of this, in spite of being just 30 miles from London.

Ironic that loads of MPs campaign for the extension of PAYG outside London and all that entails, yet when it actually happens it costs their constituents more money because the existing fare structure is ripped up.

Will Off Peak Day Single and Return tickets be reinstated for travel between stations in Zones 1-6?

There is no proposal to do that. One of the reasons no one really complained about those being withdrawn in 2010, was because of the convenience of Oyster and Contactless, and retention of Travelcard.

So if this happens, how will this affect ticketing policy within London?

It will continue as it is, other than via removal of the Travelcard.

At the moment, families and groups within London get a worse deal than those outside, as outboundary passengers get Groupsave, Family Travelcards and flat rate child tickets.

Accompanied children are free on TfL up to 10. Zip Oyster is a nuisance to arrange but the discount it offers is fairly considerable. TfL consider their job done with it. TfL don't care about Groupsave, Family Travelcards and flat rate child tickets. It will take a lot of hardship pleading to get any decision changed for those passengers.

I don't see what all the fuss is about the day travelcard withdrawal to be honest...

I don't think anyone who lives in London, travels on their own, or doesn't have a Network Railcard would either. The proposal does not affect the activities of the vast majority of travellers in London (eg Londoners) because of the widespread adoption of Oyster and Contactless, and free travel for large numbers of people through the Freedom Pass. That is what TfL are relying on when making this decision.

I suspect the short answer is that it won't, given the main justification is that most Londoners are now using Oyster or Contactless, and TfL essentially can't afford to keep subsidising cheap tickets for visitors to London.

That does seem to be the position.

 

[island]

If you researched it carefully, you would find probably that the average is slightly greater than 2.

I don't believe that's in any way incompatible with the statement I made thus: "The answer will almost universally be 2." Note the word in bold.

Depends which average – The mode, and I suspect the median, will be 2.

 

[tomuk]

The proposal does not affect the activities of the vast majority of travellers in London (eg Londoners) because of the widespread adoption of Oyster and Contactless,

 

[miklcct]

Upon passing the barrier off a Littlehampton train at Victoria I have noticed that everyone used a paper ticket to get across, without anyone scanning an e-ticket there.

What's the likely proportion of such tickets Travelcards, cross-London tickets, through U-zone tickets or National Rail only tickets?

 

[JonathanH]

What's the likely proportion of such tickets Travelcards, cross-London tickets, through U-zone tickets or National Rail only tickets?

The NR only tickets to London Terminals would have been swallowed by the barriers. Some users will have been using Contactless / Oyster from stations inside Gatwick. Travelcards and Cross London tickets will have been returned by the barriers.

 

[RJ]

Accompanied children are free on TfL up to 10. Zip Oyster is a nuisance to arrange but the discount it offers is fairly considerable. TfL consider their job done with it. TfL don't care about Groupsave, Family Travelcards and flat rate child tickets. It will take a lot of hardship pleading to get any decision changed for those passengers.


I don't think anyone who lives in London, travels on their own, or doesn't have a Network Railcard would either. The proposal does not affect the activities of the vast majority of travellers in London (eg Londoners) because of the widespread adoption of Oyster and Contactless, and free travel for large numbers of people through the Freedom Pass. That is what TfL are relying on when making this decision.


That does seem to be the position.

If Oyster and contactless were the solution for everyone, surely nobody would be buying Travelcards. But the statistics provided by TfL tell a different story, millions of Travelcards are still being sold.

There are people I can’t get to use contactless. It only takes one open gateline, or one missed standalone validator, or one abandoned journey after touching in for people to fall foul of the system and be charged a maximum fare. Once that happens once or twice, it puts people off and they stick with Travelcards. TfL know exactly how much revenue is held in maximum fares that never get corrected and it won’t be pence and shillings - previous figures released show this to be tens of millions of pounds pa. Proof that the system isn’t optimal for everybody, creating a need for simpler product like a Travelcard.

Under 11s get free travel with a Zip Card and 11-15 year olds get it for £1.70, provided the card is used correctly. Child tickets are still sold for travel within London because not everyone wants to organise Zip cards and some people are happy to pay the £7.60 for a child Travelcard. Some people put a value on peace of mine and ease which is one reason why there is still demand for the Travelcard.

 

[Haywain]

Ironic that loads of MPs campaign for the extension of PAYG outside London and all that entails, yet when it actually happens it costs their constituents more money because the existing fare structure is ripped up.

I don't think that this is connected with the extension of PAYG, and there is no certainty that the existing fares structure will be "ripped up" alongside the extension of PAYG.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think that this is connected with the extension of PAYG, and there is no certainty that the existing fares structure will be "ripped up" alongside the extension of PAYG.

I agree with you that it isn't linked to the PAYG extension, but it is linked to more and more people using Oyster and Contactless, TfL being very happy with that, and frankly removing the Travelcard is a 'ripping up' of the fare structure as it is fundamentally the way many people from the home counties travel to London.

 

[Haywain]

frankly removing the Travelcard is a 'ripping up' of the fare structure as it is fundamentally the way many people from the home counties travel to London.

A part of the fares structure at best. Other tickets are unaffected.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I agree with you that it isn't linked to the PAYG extension, but it is linked to more and more people using Oyster and Contactless, TfL being very happy with that, and frankly removing the Travelcard is a 'ripping up' of the fare structure as it is fundamentally the way many people from the home counties travel to London.

How many times has it been said that the fares structure needs ripping up? I think a large proportion of Travelcard sales are people not knowing that thee may be a better way to travel

 

[JonathanH]

How many times has it been said that the fares structure needs ripping up? I think a large proportion of Travelcard sales are people not knowing that thee may be a better way to travel

How many times has it been said that there will be losers? This is a manifestation of that. There is no better way to travel for people in the home counties who want to spend a day in London and take more than two distinct transit journeys while there.

 

[Haywain]

How many times has it been said that there will be losers? This is a manifestation of that. There is no better way to travel for people in the home counties who want to spend a day in London and take more than two distinct transit journeys while there.

That there might be losers is not a reason to avoid change, what is important is to do what can be done to minimise the number of losers and the level of loss.

 

[JonathanH]

That there might be losers is not a reason to avoid change, what is important is to do what can be done to minimise the number of losers and the level of loss.

Indeed, if something can be done about disabled passengers, and those with children, TfL taking a greater cut of revenue from everyone else affected may not be a bad thing at a general level.

 

[Haywain]

if something can be done about disabled passengers,

Disabled Railcard holders can already benefit from discounts on Oyster, and children (those who don't already get free travel) can get a discounted Oyster too.

 

[JonathanH]

Disabled Railcard holders can already benefit from discounts on Oyster, and children (those who don't already get free travel) can get a discounted Oyster too.

Yes, with a bit of rigmarole, that could be avoided.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If Oyster and contactless were the solution for everyone, surely nobody would be buying Travelcards. But the statistics provided by TfL tell a different story, millions of Travelcards are still being sold.

There are people I can’t get to use contactless. It only takes one open gateline, or one missed standalone validator, or one abandoned journey after touching in for people to fall foul of the system and be charged a maximum fare. Once that happens once or twice, it puts people off and they stick with Travelcards. TfL know exactly how much revenue is held in maximum fares that never get corrected and it won’t be pence and shillings - previous figures released show this to be tens of millions of pounds pa. Proof that the system isn’t optimal for everybody, creating a need for simpler product like a Travelcard.

If you reach the daily cap, will an incomplete / timed out journey cost be on top of the cap?

 

[island]

If you reach the daily cap, will an incomplete / timed out journey cost be on top of the cap?

It will.

 

[bakerstreet]

If you reach the daily cap, will an incomplete / timed out journey cost be on top of the cap?

In my experience, yes.

 

[RJ]

If you reach the daily cap, will an incomplete / timed out journey cost be on top of the cap?

Yes, incomplete journeys don’t count towards any cap, regardless of whether one has been reached.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I'm completely opposed to this and have responded accordingly.

I am most against the withdrawal of Day Travelcards as a standalone product since this is one of the very few one-ticket options which avoids TfL's stupid 'exceeded journey time' trap when spotting.

If this was marketed as a standalone Oyster product, I would be fine with the removal of paper tickets.