TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[kristiang85]

Read the first word of his tweet "Londoners"..... The national Government has in the main caused this. The hurt will not be to Londoners....

Why exactly should those of us in London subsidise your travel?

There's a bigger picture here; make London less attractive for people to come into ,especially in this post pandemic era where workers can be a lot more flexible with their location, then businesses in London lose out from the footfall, ergo all Londoners lose out through reduced business, tax receipts, etc.

You only need to look over to America to see what potentially could happen. Just because London is London doesn't mean it is immune.

 

[jon81uk]

Actually, a return journey for most zone combinations including zone 1 on the mixed-mode fare scale would go over the daily cap. For example, Barnes Bridge (Z3) to Bank (Z1) is £6 peak or £5 off-peak, and the daily cap Is £9.60.

Okay yes I was thinking of pure TfL dates not mixed mode. But still no case for travelcard as the cap works. Most of those with travelcard will be coming in from outside the zones and therefore not in general “Londoners”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a bigger picture here; make London less attractive for people to come into ,especially in this post pandemic era where workers can be a lot more flexible with their location, then businesses in London lose out from the footfall, ergo all Londoners lose out through reduced business, tax receipts, etc.

You only need to look over to America to see what potentially could happen. Just because London is London doesn't mean it is immune.

For business purposes it doesn't really. As I've pointed out several times now, a typical daily business trip to one location, which is what most people do, is cheaper by way of Anytime Day Return and 2 contactless singles than it is by Travelcard, at least in some cases apart from the anomalous pricing on the South Coast where the Travelcard element is basically free.

It might affect tourism, less because of the increased cost and more because of the utter faff of getting something suitable for a family or organised group for an occasional trip. But this could be fixed by tweaking with how the Visitor Oyster works.

 

[kristiang85]

For business purposes it doesn't really. As I've pointed out several times now, a typical daily business trip to one location, which is what most people do, is cheaper by way of Anytime Day Return and 2 contactless singles than it is by Travelcard, at least in some cases apart from the anomalous pricing on the South Coast where the Travelcard element is basically free.

It might affect tourism, less because of the increased cost and more because of the utter faff of getting something suitable for a family or organised group for an occasional trip. But this could be fixed by tweaking with how the Visitor Oyster works.

But then that means that people are stuck on their commuting route unless they want to pay more, rather than being able to rove about after work with a travelcard - certainly I will be doing less of that if I can't use that anymore. And places I frequent away from my work will lose out. And I'm far from the only one.

And my route is certainly cheaper with a travelcard, and I'm not sure I count myself as south coast. So I expect a lot of people are in the same boat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then that means that people are stuck on their commuting route unless they want to pay more, rather than being able to rove about after work with a travelcard - certainly I will be doing less of that if I can't use that anymore. And places I frequent away from my work will lose out. And I'm far from the only one.

Do me a quick favour, just pop to Euston and stand in the P8-11 tunnel just before the threatening "platform closed" signs but after the Tube exit, and if you can get one to talk to you ask a commuter how many Tube journeys they've made that day.

The answer will almost universally be 2.

"Roving about after work" is something an enthusiast does. Nobody else does it, they go home for tea maybe after a pint or two with colleagues. The fares system isn't, and shouldn't be, designed for enthusiasts specifically.

 

[jon81uk]

But then that means that people are stuck on their commuting route unless they want to pay more, rather than being able to rove about after work with a travelcard - certainly I will be doing less of that if I can't use that anymore. And places I frequent away from my work will lose out. And I'm far from the only one.

And my route is certainly cheaper with a travelcard, and I'm not sure I count myself as south coast. So I expect a lot of people are in the same boat.

That’s actually another problem with the current fares, why should your travelcard only be a small increase over the fare into London but mine is a significant increase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s actually another problem with the current fares, why should your travelcard only be a small increase over the fare into London but mine is a significant increase.

It would make a lot of sense for it to be calculated to be the cost of a 1-6 inboundary Travelcard plus a return from the outer station to Boundary Zone 6, because that's what it basically is but issued as one ticket.

I'm not quite sure how those South Coast anomalies came about; elsewhere it generally is vaguely close to the above.

 

[Haywain]

That’s actually another problem with the current fares, why should your travelcard only be a small increase over the fare into London but mine is a significant increase.

There are variations all around London - it may vary according to the available connections to TfL services which tend to be much better from the north.

 

[swt_passenger]

It would make a lot of sense for it to be calculated to be the cost of a 1-6 inboundary Travelcard plus a return from the outer station to Boundary Zone 6, because that's what it basically is but issued as one ticket.

I'm not quite sure how those South Coast anomalies came about; elsewhere it generally is vaguely close to the above.

There was a period a few years ago when the Weymouth offpeak travelcard was quite a few quid more expensive than the two parts. Just checked back through old threads, and in 2016 you’d pay a £13.40 premium when a Offpeak travelcard was only £8.00. When I asked SWT about it they wouldn’t admit it was an error. I expect there’d been a few blanket percentage rises to the combined price in years when the travelcard cost didn’t change.

 

[miklcct]

For Bletchley:

Anytime Day Return to Euston plus two singles: 46.30 + 5.60 = 51.90 (you can save another 30p or so by buying two singles for the rail journey, but that is a bit of an anomaly)
Anytime Day Return to U1: £52.30
Anytime Day Travelcard: £53.60 (I bet lots of people buy these even where a return to U1 would suit!)

Not much in it but the contactless option is cheaper. These do seem to have reduced a bit in fare; traditionally they were just priced at Anytime Day Return plus two Tube paper singles.

For Bletchley:
Anytime Day Return to Harrow & Wealdstone plus two contactless singles: 39.20 + 10.20 = 49.40

 

[tomuk]

It would make a lot of sense for it to be calculated to be the cost of a 1-6 inboundary Travelcard plus a return from the outer station to Boundary Zone 6, because that's what it basically is but issued as one ticket.

I'm not quite sure how those South Coast anomalies came about; elsewhere it generally is vaguely close to the above.

Legacy marketing\promotion from BR days baked into the system at privatisation and exaggerated by subsequent fare increases both regulated and unregulated?

 

[cactustwirly]

Do me a quick favour, just pop to Euston and stand in the P8-11 tunnel just before the threatening "platform closed" signs but after the Tube exit, and if you can get one to talk to you ask a commuter how many Tube journeys they've made that day.

The answer will almost universally be 2.

"Roving about after work" is something an enthusiast does. Nobody else does it, they go home for tea maybe after a pint or two with colleagues. The fares system isn't, and shouldn't be, designed for enthusiasts specifically.

Depends on the day? Surely on a Friday night it'll be more than 2 as people like to go for drinks after work etc

 

[Fleetmaster]

My standard one day travel card use was as follows....

Two tubes to my first appointment.

A bus to somewhere for lunch.

A bus or tube to my second appointment.

Two more tubes to get back to the station.

Didn't seem to matter why I was going to London, it always seems to play out like this or variations thereof.

I have a handful of dog earred week long travelcards too for periods where I was still actually a student but had already moved out of (or was waiting to move into) accommodation.

As for fare evasion, it seemed like you'd only have to show your card to an inspector on maybe one in ten trips. It was commonplace on arrival to see ne'erdowells offering to sell you travelcards.

 

[Mojo]

Depends on the day? Surely on a Friday night it'll be more than 2 as people like to go for drinks after work etc

Almost certainly walking distance from their place of work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Almost certainly walking distance from their place of work.

Indeed. Tourists do lots of travelling round, business travellers almost invariably make two journeys, one to the area where the office is, one back.

 

[Haywain]

Depends on the day? Surely on a Friday night it'll be more than 2 as people like to go for drinks after work etc

I would suggest that most people going for a drink after work, and with colleagues, will go somewhere within walking distance of their place of work.

 

[35B]

Do me a quick favour, just pop to Euston and stand in the P8-11 tunnel just before the threatening "platform closed" signs but after the Tube exit, and if you can get one to talk to you ask a commuter how many Tube journeys they've made that day.

The answer will almost universally be 2.

"Roving about after work" is something an enthusiast does. Nobody else does it, they go home for tea maybe after a pint or two with colleagues. The fares system isn't, and shouldn't be, designed for enthusiasts specifically.

If you researched it carefully, you would find probably that the average is slightly greater than 2.

When I had an outboundary season, I deliberately purchased the Travelcard, for two reasons. One was simple convenience. The other was that there were times I would benefit from the extra flexibility of a Travelcard. Without any enthusiast element, I can think of using it for shopping, seeing family, and going to the theatre - not to mention sightseeing when using it at a weekend for "free" travel.

Those patterns exist, and some of the £40m mentioned in the consultation will come from TfL scooping up extra fares from these journeys.

There are good reasons why this is bad policy for TfL due to it's impact on those from outside London, and the deterrent effect for visitors. Some of those effects may even be actionable given the problems that have existed with appropriately enabling discount entitlements on Oyster. But the reality is that for most people, most of the time, being forced to use Oyster/Contactless will have limited impact and be barely noticeable - £40m additional revenue per year is less than £5 per Londoner per year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you researched it carefully, you would find probably that the average is slightly greater than 2.

I don't believe that's in any way incompatible with the statement I made thus: "The answer will almost universally be 2." Note the word in bold.

Season tickets aren't relevant to this discussion because season Travelcards are not (yet) being abolished. The discussion is about day Travelcards. And I reckon the average will be in the region of 2.00001 or something. The vast majority of purchasers of outboundary Anytime Day Travelcards are just going to and from the office.

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But the reality is that for most people, most of the time, being forced to use Oyster/Contactless will have limited impact and be barely noticeable - £40m additional revenue per year is less than £5 per Londoner per year.

For most adults it'll be neither here nor there. For groups it'll be a faff, but groups aren't the majority business (and I do intend on feeding back that they should create a pre-credited Child Visitor Oyster orderable in advance for groups, which will solve that reasonably easily - if they think people would use the child flag for fraud, they could sell them only as a minimum of 10, for instance).

 

[davews]

I agree for your 'average 2 tube trips zone 1' crowd it is marginal. Maybe I am not one of the Mr Averages. I go on weekly walks in London which could be anywhere, sometimes zone 6, sometimes 2-3. One tube (or network rail) to get to start, another one back at end from different station. If no pub near my finish another one or two tube trips to get to a convenient pub. Always off peak and with senior railcard. Note that charges on network rail (usually southern or south eastern) will be more than your £2.80 fare.

Oh and if I was only going to zone 1 I would walk (or maybe bus, free with oldies pass) and not use the tube at all.

For information Martins Heron off peak return Waterloo with railcard £15.10 - off peak Travelcard £19.40 - difference £4.30

 

[bakerstreet]

Isn’t the beauty of the Day travelcard for TfL that:

- They are (usually) not the ones selling it but receive income from it (I know TfL feel it’s not enough)

- It’s (usually) other TOCs who are doing the marketing for them

- Some passengers don’t require a Day Travelcard so they are paying TfL for validity they don’t use, and therefore TfL do not have to provide this capacity but receive the income

- Possession of a Day travelcard incentivises some people to ‘make the most’ of their day in London and may make them spend additionally whilst in London. Indeed, travel to the office is itself becoming a discretionary spend.

- The TfL oyster line does not have to deal with any discrepancies of exceed journey times / not touch out

- TfL could sell Day travelcards on plastic (Oyster/ Smartcard).

In fact, I’ve never really understood why TfL don’t market the in boundary Day travelcard as a product on Oyster.
It could be bought using the same resources and method as a top up can, resources which already exist, yet may make those who never intended to reach the cap invest in a Day travelcard instead because they like the well marketed product.

The Day travelcard. Receiving money, for a product you don’t have to vend yourself, and for validity you don’t always have to fulfil, marketing paid for by another organisation, a brand name which is well known and understood, of which you own the naming rights, sold via existing platforms and latest smart technology, liked by the user, incentivising using your services more, encouraging discretionary trips to the capital, providing one simple additional choice to single fares and daily / weekly caps.

What’s not to like!

And if you don’t like the price / share you’re getting, then up it.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

- They are (usually) not the ones selling it but receive income from it (I know TfL feel it’s not enough)

They may not sell it but they almost certainly provide one of the services that will be used by it. In fact, I'm going to go on a limb and say, on average, they provide the far most number of journeys made in the travelcard zone.

Some passengers don’t require a Day Travelcard so they are paying TfL for validity they don’t use, and therefore TfL do not have to provide this capacity but receive the income

And how many is that? Are they a majority?

- Possession of a Day travelcard incentivises some people to ‘make the most’ of their day in London

This counteracts your point above. TfL needs to now provide more capacity with no additional revenue.

- The TfL oyster line does not have to deal with any discrepancies of exceed journey times / not touch out

Let's get rid of everything else that might cause people to have queries. The only way to do that, of course, is to close.

In fact, I’ve never really understood why TfL don’t market the Day travelcard as a product on Oyster.

Oyster performs best as a PAYG product and has caps.

The Day travelcard. Receiving money, for a product you don’t have to vend yourself, and for validity you don’t always have to fulfil, marketing paid for by another organisation, a brand name which is well known and understood, of which you own the naming rights, sold via existing platforms and latest smart technology, liked by the user, incentivising using your services more, encouraging discretionary trips to the capital, providing one simple additional choice to single fares and daily / weekly caps.

Why would they vend something that abstracts revenue? Why would they, a non-profit public body that is often hounded by the press, want to sell something that inherently rips people off when there is something better suited to the job?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree for your 'average 2 tube trips zone 1' crowd it is marginal. Maybe I am not one of the Mr Averages. I go on weekly walks in London which could be anywhere, sometimes zone 6, sometimes 2-3. One tube (or network rail) to get to start, another one back at end from different station. If no pub near my finish another one or two tube trips to get to a convenient pub. Always off peak and with senior railcard. Note that charges on network rail (usually southern or south eastern) will be more than your £2.80 fare.

I bet you don't use Anytime Day Travelcards for that, though. I did say tourists and leisure travellers using Off Peak cards are more likely to lose out. I'd call that tourism/leisure travel.

It was specifically the Anytime ticket I was talking about.

 

[jon81uk]

In fact, I’ve never really understood why TfL don’t market the in boundary Day travelcard as a product on Oyster.

They do. They just advertise the cap, so travel by Oyster and pay no more than £X in zones X. Or pay less with capped Oyster is another common advert.
Here are some adverts about the cap.

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[Haywain]

If you're concerned about the impact of this proposal can I recommend that you contact your MP about it, emphasising the negative effect. I have spoken to my MP this evening and they are unaware of this, in spite of being just 30 miles from London.

 

[bakerstreet]

They do. They just advertise the cap, so travel by Oyster and pay no more than £X in zones X. Or pay less with capped Oyster is another common advert.
Here are some adverts about the cap.

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Yes but that is a different product. Pay as you go. Rather than pay upfront.
My thought process being that pay upfront might deliver more income from those who like the day travelcard brand but may not reach the cap.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If l was being very cynical l would say that the Tories have taken the opportunity posed by financial instability (itself a result of the Osborne/Johnson agreement re TfL funding) in TfL to cause the Labour mayor of London political problems.

Absolutely. TfL was in a pretty good place before Covid, even with the cost overruns on Crossrail it was healthy financially.

I don’t blame TfL for looking at the out-boundary Travelcard from the leafy shires as low-hanging fruit. But equally I get the distinct impression that the TOCs wouldn’t exactly be devastated to see them go either.

 

[paul1609]

For business purposes it doesn't really. As I've pointed out several times now, a typical daily business trip to one location, which is what most people do, is cheaper by way of Anytime Day Return and 2 contactless singles than it is by Travelcard, at least in some cases apart from the anomalous pricing on the South Coast where the Travelcard element is basically free.

The south coast pricing comes about because most of the Southern terminals are in what traditionally was the city centre whereas the terminals north of the river are in suburbs. From Ashford I have direct trains to St Pancras, Charing Cross, Waterloo, London Bridge, Victoria & Canon Street. With one change a London Terminals ticket gets me to City Thameslink, Vauxhall & Blackfriars. Major Stations that are available as break of journey are Stratford, Clapham Junction, Lewisham etc. Theres not a great deal of London that isn't within half a mile walk of a Southern Region London terminals ticket. That's not really the case from say Milton Keynes

 

[Bletchleyite]

The south coast pricing comes about because most of the Southern terminals are in what traditionally was the city centre whereas the terminals north of the river are in suburbs. From Ashford I have direct trains to St Pancras, Charing Cross, Waterloo, London Bridge, Victoria & Canon Street. With one change a London Terminals ticket gets me to City Thameslink, Vauxhall & Blackfriars. Major Stations that are available as break of journey are Stratford, Clapham Junction, Lewisham etc. Theres not a great deal of London that isn't within half a mile walk of a Southern Region London terminals ticket. That's not really the case from say Milton Keynes

But that doesn't make sense, as surely if you were walking to your destination you'd not buy a Travelcard at all, but rather a return to the relevant London terminus.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Completely ridiculous idea. My MP has been informed and that intend to respond to the consultation

 

[ThameslinkUser]

But that doesn't make sense, as surely if you were walking to your destination you'd not buy a Travelcard at all, but rather a return to the relevant London terminus.

Presumably hence the lower price to encourage higher sales with less demand.