TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[miklcct]

As most people buying Travelcards don't venture further from a London Terminal than zone 2, most would notice very little difference.

Any source of this?

 

[Wolfie]

The “problem” with out-boundary Travelcards is, of course, that they are cheaper than the equivalent tickets purchased separately. And the people on the thread against this proposal are, naturally, against it because the out-boundary Travelcard is cheaper and more convenient than the equivalent tickets purchased separately.

The solution, rather than abolishing the out-boundary Travelcard, would be to revise the pricing. I can’t help but wonder if this is what TfL really want to do, and are consulting on abolishing them so the increased price can be marketed as a “reprieve”. It’s what I’d do.

But in the current form and pricing either/both TfL and the TOC are taking reduced revenue, which isn’t sustainable in the current climate. But if an out-boundary Travelcard becomes (origin to Boundary Zone 6)+(Z1-6 Travelcard), hopefully sense will be seen.

If l was being very cynical l would say that the Tories have taken the opportunity posed by financial instability (itself a result of the Osborne/Johnson agreement re TfL funding) in TfL to cause the Labour mayor of London political problems.

They have instructed him, as part of financial support packages, to raise more income. Against that backdrop it is hardly surprising that he is looking to make as much as possible of that from areas other than his own electorate. If the additional income happens to come from Tory voting areas that is a further win.

 

[Haywain]

Any source of this?

No, but perhaps I should have specified that I was referring to outboundary Travelcards.

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If the additional income happens to come from Tory voting areas that is a further win.

And, as that covers most of the south-east of England (currently, at least), that's where most of it will come from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As mentioned above, this isn't alway the case. Where I live the Travelcard price is higher than the London Thameslink price by an amount greater than the Off-Peak daily cap for zones 1 & 2, other than on weekends when the cap is 40p more than the difference. As most people buying outboundary* Travelcards don't venture further from a London Terminal than zone 2, most would notice very little difference. There will, of course, be occasions when they do venture further and the cost will increase but these will be fairly rare.

Some who buy Travelcards by default will save money. As per my examples above, an Anytime Day Travelcard from Bletchley is more expensive than a separate train ticket and contactless for most people's use-cases, even more so if you have a Network Railcard and can use that on your return journey. And most people who use Anytime Day Travelcards are just doing two Tube singles between the terminus and the office.

People other than enthusiasts don't think of a Travelcard as something for riding round all day, they mostly just think of it as a return to London with a couple of Tube trips on arrival. Surprisingly many don't even think it is valid on buses and Thameslink etc.

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Any source of this?

If you think of the journeys people are likely to make as both tourists and business travellers it's intuitively obvious.

 

[Wolfie]

I can also see TfL disapplying all Railcards, they are a National Rail product after all.

Not so sure, given the status of the Overground and Elizabeth Line, about this.

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Don’t worry just join the natives and barge through the comically easy wide gate and travel for free

A subset of the natives (just as you see in every major city in the UK with gated stations), l agree. Given disability access requirements, not to mention pushchairs, people with luggage etc, what do you propose as an alternative though?

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The change will be approved by a Labour mayor, albeit under pressure from the government, who are trying to make the mayor as unpopular as possible.

It is very unlikely that the change would be unwound in the event of a Labour government. One point with all this is that Oyster and Contactless payment is very popular for its convenience.

Re your first para it won't affect the mayor's popularity with his own electorate though for the very good reason that it won't, in general, affect them.

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Because they couldn’t balance their books at TfL, yes a lot was down to Covid but some was down to an unaffordable fares freeze policy.

Utter rubbish! TfL was running a surplus pre-COVID despite the half-assed deal re funding agreed by the blond buffon during his time as Mayor.

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Does anyone seriously believe that One Day Travelcards will be retained as a result of this so called "..engagement..", or that the proposal will not be implemented until a suitable alternative is in place?

Unless the Government makes concessions? No. It may well be that TfL are expecting Tory MPs to press the Government to do exactly that.

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No you're entirely incorrect and the rest of the country shouldn't have to pay for gimmicks like free travel for children.
Anyway this is supposed to be about the travelcard proposal.

Following your logic why should my taxes, raised in London, subsidise your trains?

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I wonder if a move could impact Toc income from locations north of London with people willing to drive to the edge of London and catch the Underground from there? The size and heavy use (pre-Covid) of car parks at stations like Hillingdon, Stanmore and Epping on weekdays suggests that commuters are willing to drive from quite a wide catchment area to the edges of the network, and they are a lot closer time-wise than many people may think. Hemel Hempstead to Stanmore and High Wycombe to Hillingdon for instance are both around a twenty minute drive with no traffic, and with price increases on National Rail may represent better value for money.

Cue significantly increased carparking charges...

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Ugh I've only just seen this. It stinks of a moneygrabbing policy by TFL, espeically as weekly and monthly cards will be retained - they just want to get people like me who have worked out it is cheaper to buy day travelcards and work 2 days a week in London to spend a lot more.

All it's going to do it stop such people from coming into London more often, and allied to the ULEZ it will become an even less attractive place to work/live/do business.

Edit: Astonishingly, that man has the audacity to tweet this today:

Read the first word of his tweet "Londoners"..... The national Government has in the main caused this. The hurt will not be to Londoners....

Why exactly should those of us in London subsidise your travel?

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I would agree. But I do think there's the distinct possibility that it won't in fact bring the full savings TfL are suggesting, because those seem to be largely based around the idea that people will just cough up rather than either not going to London as much at all or taking Ubers and walking more rather than using TfL services. It's probably true, generally speaking, that within London itself where car ownership is low and driving is mad anyway that if TfL does something bad with fares people will whine about it but continue to travel as they did before give or take maybe a few switching to Uber, walking or cycling. But I don't think that's universally true of discretionary daytrippers from the Home Counties, who are the people this mostly hits in the pocket.

Having started my career as an operational researcher l can pretty much assure you that sensitivity analysis, evaluating the impact of different rates of changed means of travel, will have been undertaken.

 

[miklcct]

No, but perhaps I should have specified that I was referring to outboundary Travelcards.

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And, as that covers most of the south-east of England (currently, at least), that's where most of it will come from.

Some who buy Travelcards by default will save money. As per my examples above, an Anytime Day Travelcard from Bletchley is more expensive than a separate train ticket and contactless for most people's use-cases, even more so if you have a Network Railcard and can use that on your return journey. And most people who use Anytime Day Travelcards are just doing two Tube singles between the terminus and the office.

People other than enthusiasts don't think of a Travelcard as something for riding round all day, they mostly just think of it as a return to London with a couple of Tube trips on arrival. Surprisingly many don't even think it is valid on buses and Thameslink etc.

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If you think of the journeys people are likely to make as both tourists and business travellers it's intuitively obvious.

Don't all promotion materials of the Travelcard all specify "unlimited travel in Zone 1-6"? If so, and if I only plan to make 1, 2 or 3 trips, especially in the lower zones, I will definitely compared the price paying separately v.s. a Travelcard. And isn't it clear that Thameslink is part of the zonal system just by looking a rail map as well? The only lines explicitly excluded from the Travelcard scheme are the Heathrow Express and HS1.

Of course if I really plan to ride a lot, especially involving some higher zones, a Travelcard immediately comes to my consideration.

 

[johncrossley]

I am not in favour of the abolition of One Day Travelcards, even though I rarely use them, for the simple reason that they are a great convenience for those who do but the reality is that many people will not find themselves spending more as a result because they only make a couple of journeys with the Travelcard.

But most travellers can only use the Network Railcard which doesn't give any discount on Oyster. In some cases where the minimum fare of £13 applies you can get a Travelcard for the same price as a day return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not so sure, given the status of the Overground and Elizabeth Line, about this.

I refer the honourable poster once again to Merseyrail, which exists in pretty much the same political construct. Only paper Anytime tickets are discounted, which hardly anyone uses, so they have de-facto abolished Railcard acceptance with barely any complaint.

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Having started my career as an operational researcher l can pretty much assure you that sensitivity analysis, evaluating the impact of different rates of changed means of travel, will have been undertaken.

The question is whether they'll have done it very well, because I predict the income from the vast majority of users of Anytime Day Travelcards will reduce, unless lots just switch to origin to zone U1 tickets they'll have used before Anytime Day Travelcards were a thing (they were introduced about 20 years ago and haven't existed anywhere near as long as the off peak product). (These are priced typically at the Anytime Day Return plus two paper Tube single fares so are quite costly).

 

[Haywain]

But most travellers can only use the Network Railcard

I'm afraid that you are fooling yourself if you think that the Network Railcard covers "most travellers".

I refer the honourable poster once again to Merseyrail, which exists in pretty much the same political construct. Only paper Anytime tickets are discounted, which hardly anyone uses, so they have de-facto abolished Railcard acceptance with barely any complaint.

That may be the case but as Project Oval includes the application of railcard discounts to contactless payment in the future, and that is being managed by TfL, it would seem very strange to then try and withdraw railcard discounts at the same time.

 

[Adam Williams]

Railcard discounts for many railcard holders are available on Oyster,

This is of course correct, but the way in which passengers are made to jump through hoops to access the discounts they are entitled to (and the way in which they are excluded from using EMV / contactless) is a joke and will reduce take-up - leading to stealth fare increases.

I'm not interested in what might be become possible in the future (w/ e.g. Oval - which I expect to happen after any withdrawal of the day TC product), it sucks right now and TfL are to blame for it.

 

[johncrossley]

I'm afraid that you are fooling yourself if you think that the Network Railcard covers "most travellers".

I mean that most travellers are not entitled to most other Railcards. Whereas anyone can get a Network Railcard.

 

[Haywain]

I mean that most travellers are not entitled to most other Railcards. Whereas anyone can get a Network Railcard.

That's true but it's surprising how few take advantage of it. People see £30 outlay as quite a lot for their occasional trips to London.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this. I think most people buying outboundary tickets would probably save money using contactless/Oyster. The fact is people don't like change so when Travelcards were a lot cheaper than they are now they bought them and still do. It's the same with through tickets to Zone U12 most peolple would save money using contactless. From the other side of the coin I'm wondering how they will be issued after CCST has gone the way of the Dodo.

 

[miklcct]

That's true but it's surprising how few take advantage of it. People see £30 outlay as quite a lot for their occasional trips to London.

If the return fare to London is £15 before discount (a typical super off-peak fare in the outer commuter area), the cost is recovered with just 6 weekends of London visits in a year which is not a lot.

 

[davews]

Using my senior rail card I would only save money not getting a travelcard if I were to make just one zone 1/2 trip contactless.
It is stated few posts earlier that the price of a travelcard is based on the daily cap from the zone 6 boundary. In my case that is Feltham. But I am not going to jump off the train at Feltham, go through and back in at the ticket line, tapping in there, and catching the next train to Waterloo. As one who goes all over the capital on my discounted travelcard I am one who would be paying hugely more with the zone 6 £14.90 off peak cap (or £9.80 if railcard added to oyster).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this. I think most people buying outboundary tickets would probably save money using contactless/Oyster. The fact is people don't like change so when Travelcards were a lot cheaper than they are now they bought them and still do. It's the same with through tickets to Zone U12 most peolple would save money using contactless. From the other side of the coin I'm wondering how they will be issued after CCST has gone the way of the Dodo.

Depends what is done to replace cross London tickets I guess. If it's just barcode scanners at interchanges then I expect U1 tickets will also be withdrawn; they're not a great loss as they're generally just priced at the relevant railway fare plus two Tube paper tickets so using contactless is cheaper, the only reason to bother is to ease an expenses claim a bit (or if splitting and wanting the whole journey covered).

 

[SWT_USER]

That's true but it's surprising how few take advantage of it. People see £30 outlay as quite a lot for their occasional trips to London.

It is actually really good value, just a shame there are so rarely trains on my line at weekends for me to take advantage.

Anecdotally I agree very few people take advantage of it, among my friendship group the majority would save money over the course of a year but I am the only one with the railcard.

Annoying to lose the outboundry travelcard but at least with SWR you can add the railcard discount to their own 'touch' smartcard.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

We're getting a lot of confusing detail on here... if I may make a suggestion... is anyone able to create a table of fares from selected stations across the area to make a direct comparison of what the current outboundary travelcard fare is and what the fares from those stations would be if the proposal were to go ahead as currently planned, assuming the daily cap is reached within the TfL area?

That may give a much clearer picture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're getting a lot of confusing detail on here... if I may make a suggestion... is anyone able to create a table of fares from selected stations across the area to make a direct comparison of what the current outboundary travelcard fare is and what the fares from those stations would be if the proposal were to go ahead as currently planned, assuming the daily cap is reached within the TfL area?

That may give a much clearer picture.

I'd venture that most people who currently use Anytime Day Travelcards won't get anywhere near the cap. The most likely comparison for a user of one of those is an Anytime Day Return to London Terminals plus two Tube Zone 1 singles at £2.80 each, total £5.60.

 

[Non Multi]

Not so sure, given the status of the Overground and Elizabeth Line, about this.

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A subset of the natives (just as you see in every major city in the UK with gated stations), l agree. Given disability access requirements, not to mention pushchairs, people with luggage etc, what do you propose as an alternative though?

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Re your first para it won't affect the mayor's popularity with his own electorate though for the very good reason that it won't, in general, affect them.

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Utter rubbish! TfL was running a surplus pre-COVID despite the half-assed deal re funding agreed by the blond buffon during his time as Mayor.

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Unless the Government makes concessions? No. It may well be that TfL are expecting Tory MPs to press the Government to do exactly that.

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Following your logic why should my taxes, raised in London, subsidise your trains?

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Cue significantly increased carparking charges...

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Read the first word of his tweet "Londoners"..... The national Government has in the main caused this. The hurt will not be to Londoners....

Why exactly should those of us in London subsidise your travel?

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Having started my career as an operational researcher l can pretty much assure you that sensitivity analysis, evaluating the impact of different rates of changed means of travel, will have been undertaken.

I'm afraid it will affect Londoners. An awful lot work in hospitality and the entertainment sector. The hospitality sector in Central London has already been hit hard by the collective rise of hybrid working. This will add to their pain when there are fewer day trippers.

 

[Richardr]

Although personally I don't support the abolishment of the Travelcard because I will pay more (as I only buy a Travelcard when I know that I will travel a lot in the outer zones), but if it turns out that the customers as a whole will end up paying less while TfL will receive more, causing TOC making a loss, I will support the proposal.

Do any of the relevant TOCs keep the revenue these days, or is any transfer just between one arm of government (the national government) and another arm of government (TfL - London's layer of government)?

 

[jon81uk]

I'm afraid it will affect Londoners. An awful lot work in hospitality and the entertainment sector. The hospitality sector in Central London has already been hit hard by the collective rise of hybrid working. This will add to their pain when there are fewer day trippers.

Most of those likely live within the zones and are currently using oyster/contactless with a cap if they do enough travel. A commute on its own will not normally hit the cap or need a travelcard.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd venture that most people who currently use Anytime Day Travelcards won't get anywhere near the cap. The most likely comparison for a user of one of those is an Anytime Day Return to London Terminals plus two Tube Zone 1 singles at £2.80 each, total £5.60.

They will get near the cap as the boundary fares on Contactless will be set in such as way that ensures they do.

 

[Haywain]

I'd venture that most people who currently use Anytime Day Travelcards won't get anywhere near the cap. The most likely comparison for a user of one of those is an Anytime Day Return to London Terminals plus two Tube Zone 1 singles at £2.80 each, total £5.60.

Outboundary Anytime Day Travelcards are probably often sold when the only Anytime requirement is for the journey into London, and any subsequent use could be Off Peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Outboundary Anytime Day Travelcards are probably often sold when the only Anytime requirement is for the journey into London, and any subsequent use could be Off Peak.

I'd venture that most are sold to people going into London for work for the day, whereby one of the journeys will be in the morning contactless peak and one in the evening contactless peak.

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They will get near the cap as the boundary fares on Contactless will be set in such as way that ensures they do.

I'm not talking about Project Oval, not least because it'll be 10+ years before it gets to Bletchley.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd venture that most people who currently use Anytime Day Travelcards won't get anywhere near the cap. The most likely comparison for a user of one of those is an Anytime Day Return to London Terminals plus two Tube Zone 1 singles at £2.80 each, total £5.60.

Anytime Day Return from Redhill to London Terminals is £25.70. Two tube journeys are £5.60. Combination is £31.30.

Anytime Travelcard is £32.90. That is getting pretty close.

 

[Haywain]

I'd venture that most are sold to people going into London for work for the day, whereby one of the journeys will be in the morning contactless peak and one in the evening contactless peak.

I think in most cases Anytime Day Return tickets to Zone U1 or Zones U12 are rather cheaper.

 

[jon81uk]

I'd venture that most are sold to people going into London for work for the day, whereby one of the journeys will be in the morning contactless peak and one in the evening contactless peak.

Depends on the route of course, for many its not cheaper to get a travelcard.

For my commute I can go into Tottenham Hale, then do contactless on the Victoria line, total cost £27.70. Travel card is £36.70. Or go into Liverpool St and do contactless from there on the tube, total cost £30.30, travel card is £36.70.

I've only ever bought travel cards at the weekend when I need to travel into London, use the tube and then National Rail to zone 3 and it was just cheaper to get the travel card because the mixed mode contactless single fare is quite high.

 

[island]

Most of those likely live within the zones and are currently using oyster/contactless with a cap if they do enough travel. A commute on its own will not normally hit the cap or need a travelcard.

Actually, a return journey for most zone combinations including zone 1 on the mixed-mode fare scale would go over the daily cap. For example, Barnes Bridge (Z3) to Bank (Z1) is £6 peak or £5 off-peak, and the daily cap Is £9.60.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think in most cases Anytime Day Return tickets to Zone U1 or Zones U12 are rather cheaper.

For Bletchley:

Anytime Day Return to Euston plus two singles: 46.30 + 5.60 = 51.90 (you can save another 30p or so by buying two singles for the rail journey, but that is a bit of an anomaly)
Anytime Day Return to U1: £52.30
Anytime Day Travelcard: £53.60 (I bet lots of people buy these even where a return to U1 would suit!)

Not much in it but the contactless option is cheaper. These do seem to have reduced a bit in fare; traditionally they were just priced at Anytime Day Return plus two Tube paper singles.

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Actually, a return journey for most zone combinations including zone 1 on the mixed-mode fare scale would go over the daily cap. For example, Barnes Bridge (Z3) to Bank (Z1) is £6 peak or £5 off-peak, and the daily cap Is £9.60.

The vast majority of people arriving at a London terminal in the peak make one return Tube journey to their office or other work location which is usually in zone 1.

Tourists are different - this hits them harder - but tourists tend not to be using Anytime fares.