Why are objects not always removed from the railway lines after engineering works?

[alxndr]

Used rail and old bags of ballast aren’t great to look at, for sure, but they aren’t in any way unhygienic or unsafe.

That is the key point. When it comes to a choice of whether to have a tidy railway or a safe* and functional railway the latter is always going to take precedence, and rightfully so. Unfortunately access is such that it's generally not possible to have both with things how they are.

*Yes, there are hazards associated with lineside scrap, but the greater safety risk posed by maintenance and inspections not getting done wins out.

Didn't one P-way manager start an incentive scheme whereby useful stuff abandoned by the wayside was credited to the team that brought it back and used to finance the Christmas meal?

I've heard that tale on here before. I've also heard from an ex-pway colleague that there was a promise that they'd get a bonus from all the scrap they collected over the year which never materialised. Unsurprisingly, none of those guys bothered much after that.

 

[jamesst]

Simple answer? Time and cost.

 

[Brush 4]

That's the answer, not the justification though. How was it done pre-privatisation? I do recall things getting messier in the last years of BR. Sectorisation perhaps? In earlier years, the lineside was always neat and tidy, there are hundreds of old photos that prove that.

 

[zwk500]

That's the answer, not the justification though. How was it done pre-privatisation? I do recall things getting messier in the last years of BR. Sectorisation perhaps?

Probably a bit earlier, in the 70s, when cash really dried up and labour started getting to expensive to maintain gangers for every length of line.

In earlier years, the lineside was always neat and tidy, there are hundreds of old photos that prove that.

Working methods were totally different back then, and if you looked around I'm sure you'd find piles of old sleepers, ballast or whatnot left near pway huts and so on.

 

[Spartacus]

One reason is time, that if you're running short of it at the end of a possession you're time's better spent getting the railway open than tidying up. Tidying up, especially of the big stuff, can be difficult though as you might need another possession to actually remove it. Sometimes it's factored into the plan too, with rails often dropped well before they're due to replace the old ones, then the old ones recovered some time after, simply because there might not be enough time to do it all in one possession without excessive disruption to services.

A second reason though is that it's not unusual to leave 'spares' around the network so that if they're needed you're less likely to need to get someone so go collect the stuff with the appropriate vehicle then get it to the location it's need. Ballast bags sometimes get left in areas with known problems with wet beds, rails get left as strategic spares too. It all speeds up the process of fixing faults.

 

[heathrowrail]

There must be billions, literally several billions of (railway-generated) objects left on the railway estate throughout the UK, ranging from old rails all the way through to decomposing bags of ballast and everything in between. And that's not counting general litter and fly-tipping.

What is it about the railway culture in this country that treats the railways like a rubbish dump?

Why do engineering workers not clear up after them?

Quite apart from the safety issues so much stuff poses, it's a terrible look and so unprofessional.

By comparison, Switzerland's railway estate is immaculate - nothing left lying around after engineering works.

Simple answer is our railways (especially before covid) are some of the busiest in Europe. Closing down a small section of line overnight brings massive pressure to get it reopened on time as the consequences due to the stupidity of the franchise/contract model means it costs more if 4 or 5 trains are late than it does to spend the extra hour making sure the tracks are clean. Not to mention our country has a culture that "Manual labour" is something to look down on so engineers are nearly always lacking which doesn't help.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If the pile of sleepers at Balshaw Lane Junction leftover since its remodelling are there much longer they will be listed as an historic monument.

 

[Alanko]

If the pile of sleepers at Balshaw Lane Junction leftover since its remodelling are there much longer they will be listed as an historic monument.

Prime invertebrate habitat, to be left alone at all costs.

 

[43066]

Simple answer is our railways (especially before covid) are some of the busiest in Europe. Closing down a small section of line overnight brings massive pressure to get it reopened on time as the consequences due to the stupidity of the franchise/contract model means it costs more if 4 or 5 trains are late than it does to spend the extra hour making sure the tracks are clean.

As someone who regularly relies on first/very early trains to get to work, I’d much prefer the system prioritised running them on time, than wasting an extra hour making the ten foot look pretty!

 

[mpthomson]

Yes. Most major airports have a partial airframe on site for firefighter training.

Firefighting training is done on specially constructed fuselage mockups that are fireproofed and normally have 3-5 'engines' to mimic all the common engine configurations. Old airframes burn to nothing on first ignition so can't be used to carry out drills repeatedly. I've watched quite a few of these training exercises over the years.

The police may use old fuselages for search and dog handler training but that'll be about it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Midweek nights on the Southern are just too short to deal with scrap clearance but there is plenty of cyclic weekends with RRVs deployed that could use spare time during the possession to do a bit of housekeeping. May take a few years but it needs leadership from the top to encourage this where time and resource allows.

The other thing about scrap left lineside is that it does give an impression that people don't care which is of course is completely wrong but perception is everything.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In the early days of privatisation , GTRM who looked after the WCML and so on had a good approach in clearing scrap as part of normal possessions and they used to report on tonnages picked up (as well as removing the worst of trackside graffiti vandalisim) ,which helped in granting them emergency or important possessions at shortish notice. A good approach.

Now chunks of rail and discarded fishplates etc are an invitation to miscreants using them for nefarious purposes- those old enough may recall the derailment of a 50 at West Ealing which visited a supermarket carpark in BR days one Sunday evening (no fatalities thank goodness) , the derailment of an Edinburgh sleeper at Prestonpans , and on my own watch , 313001 on the St Albans Abbey line at Garston which decided to have a lie down on it's side when kids placed some dumped fish plates on the running line one School holiday - (they were caught and prosecuted , part of the penalty was explaining to the traincrew what they were playing at !) - no doubt many others have happened.

I have to state that BR used to have "clear weeks" in picking up potential ammunition , and a good friend used to roam the GE with a 31 and some suitable wagons and a gang of PW in the inner area , working closely with the signalman and regulating the service to do good work. Course it helped with "one railway" and no real "contracts" to deal with , just practical work. BR of course did not have shed loads of money , but they thought that such tasks were well worth doing ......even though when some track renewals were a bit tight on handing back and they were forced to throw spent ballast down the bank etc to importantly hand the line back for service trains , on time.....

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In the early days of privatisation , GTRM who looked after the WCML and so on had a good approach in clearing scrap as part of normal possessions and they used to report on tonnages picked up (as well as removing the worst of trackside graffiti vandalisim) ,which helped in granting them emergency or important possessions at shortish notice. A good approach.

Now chunks of rail and discarded fishplates etc are an invitation to miscreants using them for nefarious purposes- those old enough may recall the derailment of a 50 at West Ealing which visited a supermarket carpark in BR days one Sunday evening (no fatalities thank goodness) , the derailment of an Edinburgh sleeper at Prestonpans , and on my own watch , 313001 on the St Albans Abbey line at Garston which decided to have a lie down on it's side when kids placed some dumped fish plates on the running line one School holiday - (they were caught and prosecuted , part of the penalty was explaining to the traincrew what they were playing at !) - no doubt many others have happened.

I have to state that BR used to have "clear weeks" in picking up potential ammunition , and a good friend used to roam the GE with a 31 and some suitable wagons and a gang of PW in the inner area , working closely with the signalman and regulating the service to do good work. Course it helped with "one railway" and no real "contracts" to deal with , just practical work. BR of course did not have shed loads of money , but they thought that such tasks were well worth doing ......even though when some track renewals were a bit tight on handing back and they were forced to throw spent ballast down the bank etc to importantly hand the line back for service trains , on time.....

Having been up WCML to New Street today have to say that piece of railway is pretty clear compared to what i see in Sussex which is good given how busy the route is.

 

[Horizon22]

Time is going to be a major constraint here. Many operators aren't happy with line blocks and extended engineering works at the best of the time so an additional hour here or there to reclaim scrap metal aren't going to be looked on well. Posessions and blocks often seemed to be squeezed incredibly tight as it is, and I suppose if it isn't affecting the safety of the line and is just "unsightly" in the middle of the running lines well then that's just not a priority.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Firefighting training is done on specially constructed fuselage mockups that are fireproofed and normally have 3-5 'engines' to mimic all the common engine configurations. Old airframes burn to nothing on first ignition so can't be used to carry out drills repeatedly. I've watched quite a few of these training exercises over the years.

The police may use old fuselages for search and dog handler training but that'll be about it.

Here's the one at Heathrow...

 

[willmow]

As the OP of this thread, my thanks to all for your insights. I'm a mere (but keen) user of the railways. I don't recall what the situation was pre privatisation, but I would like to think there was an attempt to keep the estate clean and tidy as the railways were integrated, instead of being fragmented and profit driven as they are now. The Swiss system is a good example of a holistic, centralised system that comprises nationalised as well as private railways (and which interconnects directly with four neighbouring countries), and which still manages to maintain a pristine estate. As my teachers used to say: "A tidy desk is a tidy mind...".

 

[zwk500]

As the OP of this thread, my thanks to all for your insights. I'm a mere (but keen) user of the railways. I don't recall what the situation was pre privatisation, but I would like to think there was an attempt to keep the estate clean and tidy as the railways were integrated, instead of being fragmented and profit driven as they are now.

Fairly sure old bits of rail and sleepers lying about were pretty common in BR and earlier days. The older railways were expert at reusing old materials though so they may have been collected quite quickly.

The Swiss system is a good example of a holistic, centralised system that comprises nationalised as well as private railways (and which interconnects directly with four neighbouring countries), and which still manages to maintain a pristine estate.

The swiss are quite good at keeping their country very clean generally, so this may be cultural rather than organisational.

As my teachers used to say: "A tidy desk is a tidy mind...".

Ironically, the least tidy desks I've ever seen (excluding my dad) are academics!

 

[Railsigns]

Railtrack's campaign to tackle lineside scrap got off to a good start...



[Image shows page reading: "Lineside crap or rubbish. s. If you see anything left lying about remove it or report it!!!!!!!"]

 

[greatkingrat]

Railtrack's campaign to tackle lineside scrap got off to a good start...

Remember there was stock without retention tanks still operating then, so there would have been both scrap and crap lying about!

 

[43066]

Railtrack's campaign to tackle lineside scrap got off to a good start...

View attachment 136721

[Image shows page reading: "Lineside crap or rubbish. s. If you see anything left lying about remove it or report it!!!!!!!"]

Freudian slip!?

To be fair, what the sign is accurately describing was a regular sight on my route, right up until the HSTs were withdrawn!

 

[Jim the Jim]

I quite like it that they leave stuff lying around, gives a bit of variety when looking out the window.

 

[MotCO]

When there are track possessions, can there be another team picking up all the rubbish? I like the idea of a big magnetic lifter - at least if all the rusty ironwork was removed, it would look better. Is it possible that the sale proceeds of the recovered material would cover the cost of collection?

 

[zwk500]

When there are track possessions, can there be another team picking up all the rubbish?

In theory, yes. But you've got to pay them. And there needs to be no conflicting work going on in the same area. If you need a road-rail crane to pick up the scrap rail then it'll cause problems if somebody was intending to tamp the track or replace a faulty signal module.

Is it possible that the sale proceeds of the recovered material would cover the cost of collection?

A big 'it depends' but in general if it's worth recovering they'll do it and it's a safe bet to assume that anything left behind is at best marginal. I think there's a lot of stuff where if you can grab it within a block it's worth getting but if you have to put a separate possession on to pick it up the money just isn't worth it. But NR have a big recycling base at Whitemoor yard (and possibly others) to reuse a lot of their materials.

 

[6Gman]

It's not just a railway issue. The County Council did some work round here, cleared up afterwards but missed one sign. We rang them up and they explained that the cost of sending out a man and a van to collect it would be more than the sign was worth. Basically, if the local farmer wanted to use it to block a hole in a hedge he would be doing them a favour!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Freudian slip!?

I think it's deliberate... the "S" is visible in the picture... just not where it should be,, which is probably the whole point...

 

[zwk500]

I think it's deliberate... the "S" is visible in the picture... just not where it should be,, which is probably the whole point...

Given the 'Clip Art' feel of the images used, I suspect somebody set the image wrapping to something to make it easier to move around and missed that the 'S' got bumped around the page.

 

[Railsigns]

I think it's deliberate... the "S" is visible in the picture... just not where it should be,, which is probably the whole point...

I don't know whether it was deliberate, but a corrected version appeared a week later. Maybe someone saw the "S" lying around and reported it as instructed!

 

[WesternBiker]

The Swiss are quite good at keeping their country very clean generally, so this may be cultural rather than organisational.

My hunch is that it is largely cultural, and this seeps into working practices, contracts, timings etc. Similarly in Japan (and their urban networks are definitely comparably busy to ours).

 

[Kilopylae]

I don’t think it’s “railway culture”, as such, more that finance and (especially) time is limited in an engineering work context, so it’s a question of priorities

That might not be unique to the railways, but it's a cultural malaise that treats cleaning up as extra.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Going up to Waterloo today, I noticed at Clapham Junction at the end of a PW train on the Windsor Lines a rather new-looking long bogie wagon with 'Scrap Metal Only' on the side. I've not seen one like that before. Maybe somebody in a responsible position is reading this thread!