Why are objects not always removed from the railway lines after engineering works?

[willmow]

There must be billions, literally several billions of (railway-generated) objects left on the railway estate throughout the UK, ranging from old rails all the way through to decomposing bags of ballast and everything in between. And that's not counting general litter and fly-tipping.

What is it about the railway culture in this country that treats the railways like a rubbish dump?

Why do engineering workers not clear up after them?

Quite apart from the safety issues so much stuff poses, it's a terrible look and so unprofessional.

By comparison, Switzerland's railway estate is immaculate - nothing left lying around after engineering works.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Well we do clean up leaves on line, I guess?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2023 ==

We close lines to remove leaves on line.
So I suppose we have some sort of standards on treating railway lines.

 

[zwk500]

There must be billions, literally several billions of (railway-generated) objects left on the railway estate throughout the UK, ranging from old rails all the way through to decomposing bags of ballast and everything in between. And that's not counting general litter and fly-tipping. What is it about the railway culture in this country that treats the railways like a rubbish dump? Why do engineering workers not clear up after them? Quite apart from the safety issues so much stuff poses, it's a terrible look and so unprofessional. By comparison, Switzerland's railway estate is immaculate - nothing left lying around after engineering works.

Simply put, it costs more for them to pick it up than to leave it behind. If the possession is running close to the time limit, it's financially better for them not to overrun than to spend an extra half hour picking up after themselves. Once the items have been left, it's very expensive to organise a follow up trip to pick them up. Of course, sometimes objects like ballast bags end up making their way onto the tracks and causing problems and delays, so it isn't a harmless problem.
Litter and fly tipping is generally picked up on more as it has a greater chance of moving and getting somewhere it shouldn't as well as being unhealthy and attracting pests like rats that can do real damage to the railway, but you aren't going to send a person out for a few crisps packets, the disruption to passengers just isn't worth it.

 

[alxndr]

Time is the main reason. When you’re rushed for time the last thing on your mind is picking up anything that isn’t either useful or hazardous.

Another part of the problem is also that there’s so much of it that you do just become blind to it. My team has started carrying bin bags and cleaning up as we go when we get time for it and once you start looking you begin to notice the sheer amount, but you don’t see it until you begin looking. The majority we collect is non-railway, probably a 70/30 split.

 

[skyhigh]

Well we do clean up leaves on line, I guess?

We close lines to remove leaves on line.

We treat lines to remove the safety impact of leaves. The railhead treatment trains effectively wash the leaves off the railhead, they don't suck them up.

And we certainly don't close lines to remove leaves.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

We treat lines to remove the safety impact of leaves. The railhead treatment trains effectively wash the leaves off the railhead, they don't suck them up.

And we certainly don't close lines to remove leaves.

is it safe not close the line, would it health and safety risk. Surely the Trains aren’t passing by at 125 mph, that would be dangerous, I hope there is lower speed limit, for engineering team safety.

 

[alxndr]

is it safe not close the line, would it health and safety risk. Surely the Trains aren’t passing by at 125 mph, that would be dangerous, I hope there is lower speed limit, for engineering team safety.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. No one is going out and manually picking up leaves (although they may go out to clean rails which have been contaminated by leaf mulch).

Working on an open line is no longer permitted in 99% of cases, but work may take place adjacent to a line open at 125mph providing an adequate safety distance is maintained.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Definitely a problem unique to railways. I observed a disgusting looking spill of what appeared to be some kind of straw colored sticky glue (points lubricant?). It wasn't at an access gate, but neither are there any points nearby. An entire large tub of it had simply split, presumably dropped as it was being transported to a work site. This happened feet from the fence line, which runs directly alongside a footpath, so some of this stuff had entered the footpath. Due the location, near a bridge, there's no way to avoid the already narrow path.

By design I guess, this stuff is essentially impervious to rain, and doesn't dry out. Needless to say, it looked about as good for the environment or wildlife as crude oil, if not worse. Curiously, by the time I saw it, major effort had been expended to remove the remains of the container, all but the base, the guilty party perhaps hoping it would then be seen as an epic case of seagul excrement. It had the whiff of a corporate cover up.

Absolutely nothing was done about it for weeks, and inevitably it started to spread as people stepped in it or rode through it. No doubt children. It surely landed people with significant cleaning bills and perhaps even health stress. I can only assume the contractor simply didn't report it.

By the time it was cleaned up, as well as all the other effects, it was clear that the delay had meant permanent but superficial damage (deep staining) had been done to the rather nice block paving that forms the nearby steps forking off this path to allow pedestrian access to the paths running beneath the railway bridge. The blockwork was in good nick until then, chewing gum aside, despite looking like it dated from the 90s.

For the usual reasons, this unsightly damage will never be rectified, it will just stay that way for another twenty years, adding to the sense of general mankyness and neglect of the public realm in the areas deemed unimportant. In this case, that includes the deep scar in the dirt alongside the steps cause by cyclists taking a shortcut. I only like this act of vandalism because it exposes all the coal underneath that is a legacy of this branch railway having been an important coal route back in the day.

It's not a main or central route, but it is yards from a well used part of the national cycle network, and is the logical route for pedestrian visitors to their major city as they trabsit between their budget hotel and the nearby chain restaurants.

It's only one incident, but given what it was, it's really inexcusable. And you get no sense that it isn't reflective of the culture of the railway these days. I seriously doubt anyone got fined, so of course the costs are loaded straight onto the tax payer. This is already a loss making area of the railway.

 

[zwk500]

is it safe not close the line, would it health and safety risk. Surely the Trains aren’t passing by at 125 mph, that would be dangerous, I hope there is lower speed limit, for engineering team safety.

Leaves are cleaned off the line by the RHTTs utilising a pressure washer (in effect). The are trains running between traffic without any lineside workers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Simply put, it costs more for them to pick it up than to leave it behind. If the possession is running close to the time limit, it's financially better for them not to overrun than to spend an extra half hour picking up after themselves. Once the items have been left, it's very expensive to organise a follow up trip to pick them up. Of course, sometimes objects like ballast bags end up making their way onto the tracks and causing problems and delays, so it isn't a harmless problem.
Litter and fly tipping is generally picked up on more as it has a greater chance of moving and getting somewhere it shouldn't as well as being unhealthy and attracting pests like rats that can do real damage to the railway, but you aren't going to send a person out for a few crisps packets, the disruption to passengers just isn't worth it.

Scrap rail is actually worth a fair bit and the internal off charging system used to provide a credit back to your budget for whatever was returned as scrap.
Time is certainly part of the issue on mid week nights when your dealing with a rail defect which have become much more prevalent since the deployment of the ultrasonic trains but its also become culturally acceptable to just leave stuff behind. Even perfectly serviceable S&T assets are just discarded but that is also the aggravation now with manual handling items on and off trolleys.

Another big issue is each contractor will only deal with their own stuff despite many of them deploying RRVs to do their work, all on NRs account remember, but won't pick other stuff often because they don't have weights and then would get criticised for lifting without a lift plan.

I will nominate Sth Croydon Jcn vee as the worst place on the Brighton Line but almost everywhere North of Purley has locations with far too much material abandoned cluttering up access points as well as the lineside. Needs a temporary team setting up with the goal of clearing the lineside but the scarp value wouldn't cover the cost so it aint going to happen anytime soon given current financial constraints.

 

[zwk500]

Scrap rail is actually worth a fair bit and the internal off charging system used to provide a credit back to your budget for whatever was returned as scrap.

It is, but once it's left organising a 2nd access is more expensive than the credit.

Time is certainly part of the issue on mid week nights when your dealing with a rail defect which have become much more prevalent since the deployment of the ultrasonic trains but its also become culturally acceptable to just leave stuff behind. Even perfectly serviceable S&T assets are just discarded but that is also the aggravation now with manual handling items on and off trolleys.

Another big issue is each contractor will only deal with their own stuff despite many of them deploying RRVs to do their work, all on NRs account remember, but won't pick other stuff often because they don't have weights and then would get criticised for lifting without a lift plan.

These are indeed problems, and part of the fragmentation issue as well - a central component recovery service could probably save everybody a good deal of money but nobody wants to pay for it.

I will nominate Sth Croydon Jcn vee as the worst place on the Brighton Line but almost everywhere North of Purley has locations with far too much material abandoned cluttering up access points as well as the lineside. Needs a temporary team setting up with the goal of clearing the lineside but the scarp value wouldn't cover the cost so it aint going to happen anytime soon given current financial constraints.

Given the training compound at Purley they should be able to recover scrap quite easily!

ISTR a couple of years ago there was a serious delay caused by some scrap being left too close to the rail just outside Redhill on the NDL which took out the shoes on the morning train to Reigate.

 

[slowroad]

Do you see the same thing in other countries?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Do you see the same thing in other countries?

Certainly not in Western Europe but mind you ive seen far worse graffiti in some of those countries but then lineside access is somewhat easier and maybe that also helps in clearing scrap.

 

[Western Sunset]

Surely, as part of the contract to repair/relay any part of the infrastructure, it should be beholden to those undertaking the work to remove debris and surplus material from the work site on completion.

Currently, it looks a mess, is a mess and encourages fly-tipping and other nefarious activity. It looks unprofessional and gives a suggestion (maybe wrongly, but still an impression) that the contractors want to just do a quick slap-dash job.

And that's before we think of the environmental aspects, as others have noted above.

I was at Kings Langley last week, and the slow lines through the station had short pieces of cut rails in the four-foot. Looks like they'll be there for a long time as sandbags have been positioned to prevent them from creeping. But it looks like a mess as per my photo below... Or are these rails there for an engineering purpose; say to anchor the tracks on the reverse curve? If so, surely a more elegant solution could be found.

 

[The exile]

Definitely a problem unique to railways.

Really? I take it you don’t spend much time on our trunk road network, then.

 

[Alanko]

Really? I take it you don’t spend much time on our trunk road network, then.

Likewise, until fairly recently Edinburgh airport had a couple of long-dead aircraft sitting next to the Dalmeny line. One had a collapsed undercarriage leg. I remember seeing a similar written-off aircraft at Exeter airport in the early noughties.

It seems like a good number of UK airports have at least one derelict airframe on site (the Herald at Gatwick seems a notable example) as well as defunct baggage handling equipment, stairs etc. I would argue that this is worse than a bag of Pandrol clips and some offcuts of rail.

 

[Efini92]

We treat lines to remove the safety impact of leaves. The railhead treatment trains effectively wash the leaves off the railhead, they don't suck them up.

And we certainly don't close lines to remove leaves.

It depends. It’s not unknown for lines to be closed whilst they are treated.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Likewise, until fairly recently Edinburgh airport had a couple of long-dead aircraft sitting next to the Dalmeny line. One had a collapsed undercarriage leg. I remember seeing a similar written-off aircraft at Exeter airport in the early noughties.

It seems like a good number of UK airports have at least one derelict airframe on site (the Herald at Gatwick seems a notable example) as well as defunct baggage handling equipment, stairs etc. I would argue that this is worse than a bag of Pandrol clips and some offcuts of rail.

I think at least some of those planes are used for training

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Surely, as part of the contract to repair/relay any part of the infrastructure, it should be beholden to those undertaking the work to remove debris and surplus material from the work site on completion.

My experience is this less of a contractors issue and more of an NR mtce one because projects get funding to complete scrap clearance but mtce are always minding the purse strings and don't have the access opportunities that big projects get.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely, as part of the contract to repair/relay any part of the infrastructure, it should be beholden to those undertaking the work to remove debris and surplus material from the work site on completion.

And how much do you want to increase railway industry subsidies for this additional service you are requiring of contractors?

 

[Pdf]

I think at least some of those planes are used for training

Yes. Most major airports have a partial airframe on site for firefighter training.

 

[Western Sunset]

It should all be costed into the job as a requirement; not an "additional service".

And how much do you want to increase railway industry subsidies for this additional service you are requiring of contractors?

 

[Energy]

It should all be costed into the job as a requirement; not an "additional service".

Agreed. Cleaning up after yourself should be a requirement for bits like offcuts of rail. Litter is more difficult as much of it will be blown in.

 

[HSTEd]

It should all be costed into the job as a requirement; not an "additional service".

The reality is, however you want to define it, doing this will require a substantial increase in effort compared to now.

That will put costs up, which will require subsidies to the industry to increased.

 

[Western Sunset]

It's all down to the mindset of the railway industry and DfT. There is a "cost" in leaving scrap metal (which has a monetary value) in situ after work has been "completed", just as there is a "cost" to take the stuff away.

As the OP commented: "What is it about the railway culture in this country that treats the railways like a rubbish dump?"

 

[Taunton]

My experience is this less of a contractors issue and more of an NR mtce one because projects get funding to complete scrap clearance but mtce are always minding the purse strings and don't have the access opportunities that big projects get.

Not necessarily the way there either. When the Goblin reopened after its lengthy closure, the section through Walthamstow, where the track had been lowered, one of the big parts of the closure, was left an absolute mess of empty materials bags, material offcuts, everything, all just thrown wherever. I wrote about it on here at the time.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not necessarily the way there either. When the Goblin reopened after its lengthy closure, the section through Walthamstow, where the track had been lowered, one of the big parts of the closure, was left an absolute mess of empty materials bags, material offcuts, everything, all just thrown wherever. I wrote about it on here at the time.

Never said contractors were perfect but NR projects build into the contracts site clearance and their oversight organisation is used to make sure sites are cleared up before full settlement of application for payments are made. Well thats whats supposed to happen!! and the recent S&C track renewals ive observed at on the Kent and Sussex sides have been left very tidy. However, as i say they projects have generous levels of access, just look at how many weekends we've had all line blocks into Victoria since the Xmas 10 day closure so plenty of opportunity for clearing up. The annoying factor will be the missed opportunity to clear all the legacy detritus that is stranded alongside the track because its not created by the resignalling/remodelling project.

 

[DelW]

As an aside (but related), I've seen a YouTube video of clearing up after a track relaying operation in the USA. A rail mounted hydraulic machine fitted with an electromagnet on the end of the dipper arm was collecting ferrous metal items and putting them into an open wagon that it was towing. I assume it was picking up small items like clips and spikes that would be too time-consuming to collect by hand, but still have a value when collected in quantity. Are such devices ever used here? I can't recall ever having seen any mention of one, but then it probably wouldn't attract much attention anyway.

 

[43066]

Likewise, until fairly recently Edinburgh airport had a couple of long-dead aircraft sitting next to the Dalmeny line. One had a collapsed undercarriage leg. I remember seeing a similar written-off aircraft at Exeter airport in the early noughties.

It seems like a good number of UK airports have at least one derelict airframe on site (the Herald at Gatwick seems a notable example) as well as defunct baggage handling equipment, stairs etc. I would argue that this is worse than a bag of Pandrol clips and some offcuts of rail.

Manston certainly had some impressive specimens before it closed!

As the OP commented: "What is it about the railway culture in this country that treats the railways like a rubbish dump?"

I don’t think it’s “railway culture”, as such, more that finance and (especially) time is limited in an engineering work context, so it’s a question of priorities

Used rail and old bags of ballast aren’t great to look at, for sure, but they aren’t in any way unhygienic or unsafe.

 

[2192]

Didn't one P-way manager start an incentive scheme whereby useful stuff abandoned by the wayside was credited to the team that brought it back and used to finance the Christmas meal?