New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[jopsuk]

The advice I got was from a member of NXEA staff, who was advising people to buy onn board/on arrival for both lines to London. there were two (as far as I spotted) people with handhelds, but there can easily be that many on a "normal" Monday doing queue busting.

 

[amcluesent]

I see they now put up a barrier to keep a walkway clear right under the big board.

 

[stut]

I see they now put up a barrier to keep a walkway clear right under the big board.

Yup, and it does just about work, as long as you don't get some numpty rushing towards you with a giant, rolling suitcase.

Last night, they were stopping people using the 'staff entrance' (by platform 5) even though the barriers and gates are all open :roll:

 

[Aictos]

Last night, they were stopping people using the 'staff entrance' (by platform 5) even though the barriers and gates are all open :roll:

Your point being what exactly :roll:? These gates aren't for the general public but rather access gates for ISS, Network Rail and their various vehicles so what's the problem with having to walk a few more feet and use the barriers?

 

[stut]

Your point being what exactly :roll:? These gates aren't for the general public but rather access gates for ISS, Network Rail and their various vehicles so what's the problem with having to walk a few more feet and use the barriers?

What exactly is the point of preventing people from using wide-open barriers when the entire area has been left open for the night? Yes, I can easily walk round a too-narrow passage through hordes of drunk people in a crowded rush to get a seat at my far-end-of-platform-0 train that's been announced all of 5 minutes before departure. It's just yet another one of those joyful little hindrances put in there that manages to make your journey that little bit less pleasant.

 

[jon0844]

I saw posters saying that from next week, they're changing the system at King's Cross so platforms will be announced earlier. Anyone know what's actually happening and how it will work (and how much sooner they'll be announced)?

In the last year or so, there have been platform changes and announcements that make people really need to run - and anyone who might struggle to walk would easily miss the train if they weren't in the right place to begin with. With some rather notable examples of trains changing from platform 11 to 0 at the last minute, I do hope they can improve things.

 

[amcluesent]

>and how much sooner they'll be announced<

I know that the platform info often appears on the UK Train Times 'app' for the iPhone a good 5 minutes before the same info appears on the departure board. Regular commuters can still loiter at the appropriate gate waiting to spring into action...

 

[stut]

I know that the platform info often appears on the UK Train Times 'app' for the iPhone a good 5 minutes before the same info appears on the departure board. Regular commuters can still loiter at the appropriate gate waiting to spring into action...

Beware of that, though - last-minute changes from the app do happen as well!

Having platforms announced sooner will be a great help. However... Does that mean they'll be announcing platforms before the train arrives? Some of the turnaround times in rush hour are very tight on the PBO services, and platforms 10/11 (for example) wouldn't cope particularly well with a crowd.

I expect (hope!) there'll be room for some discretion...

 

[jon0844]

>and how much sooner they'll be announced<

I know that the platform info often appears on the UK Train Times 'app' for the iPhone a good 5 minutes before the same info appears on the departure board. Regular commuters can still loiter at the appropriate gate waiting to spring into action...

Yes, but for at least the last six months that info can turn out to be incorrect. With the work going on, I can see the booked platforms online and a lot of services for 9-11 can, and are, moved to the main building - such as platform 0.

On that basis, that 'advanced knowledge' can catch you out - and has caught me out many times, often with the consequence that I've walked down to platform 11 and it's now on 0 (or to 0 and now it's platform 9 or something). Now I no longer look at my phone and wait until I see the boards.

I am hoping that this is what will be fixed next week.

I didn't read all the text on the poster, but it did mention something about being careful to check things. I wonder if one thing they're going to do is announce trains on the same platform at the same time (e.g. 9b for X and 9a for Y). As it stands, some trains are there and ready but not displayed until the front train has left - which if delayed for any reason will mean a late announcement for the service behind. Also, I believe there are some combinations where a train to the same destination isn't announced until another has left (such a Peterborough), as there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to the Cambridge/Foxton trick for those services.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Last night (23 March), had my first experience of the Kings Cross ticket barriers. And it was not a joyous experience.

Ahead of time, I bought an off-peak day return (with Network Card) from Kings to Baldock. Bought specifically from the FCC web site and specifcally for the 17:23. When I put my ticket in, the barrier came up with the 'seek assistance'. The East Coast trains ticket inspector at the wide barriers, studied my ticket carefully and crossed check it with some coloured graph. He thought my ticket was valid for the 17:23, but being an East Coast trains person would not accept responsibility if I was fined on the train. He cross checked with another East Coast person who appeared no more confident.

During the incident, I was trying to retreive the FCC sales email from my mobile to show my ticket was valid. Of course, I coudn't get a connection at the moment. After re-rechecking the validity of my ticket, they let me through.

It's left me thinking that everytime I make this particular journey in the future, I'll be face with some problem all over again at Kings Cross. Next time, I'l have the email ready beforehand !!

How come these errors occur and do others have a similar problem ?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I spoke with the barrier staff earlier in the week (in between the mad rushes!) to ask how they were finding the new arrangements and how passengers were responding.
Firstly, I can confirm that platform announcements were being made earlier than in recent months, at around 20 minutes before departure, though not consistently so, ranging from 25 to 15 mins.

The control of valid entry, in advance of a departure, can be regulated from a terminal behind one of the pillars along the gateline, and even if one of the staff is slow to 'authorise' a forthcoming departure, the first passenger attempting to use a ticket for that departure will flag up the attempt and the supervisor will be able to respond by 'authorising' tickets for that departure.
This can create the mistaken impression by the passenger who takes their rejected ticket and tries in the next gate (by which time it will have been authorised) and thinks that one gate worked and the other didn't!
Apparently a lot of passengers have been complaining that 'the barriers made them late' which, after observing several rush-hour departures, I find hard to accept.

One practice which does cause a lot of confusion among passengers is the regular changes in direction of flow though the barriers, set, reasonably enough, to maximise flow to suit demand. (eg when there is an arrival, a whole block of gates will be set to allow exits (and a few for entrances) and when departures are announced, a whole block of gate is set to allow entrances.
This confusion can arise as these changes to the flow through these blocks are made, and the difficulty for passengers in recognising which barriers are set for each direction - especially in a dense crowd, until you are closer to them. Its being managed by staff who usher and direct passengers towards the 'open' block of gates, but until passengers realise and become accustomed to the direction of flow being alternated so regularly, it will remain chaotic. This seemed to be quite effective, though does involve a lot of shouting "This way please" several times. Even once passengers know and expect the flows to be changed from minute to minute, there is no indication from a distance which way to go - its only when passengers are close enough to see the green arrow or red cross on the gate's display that they will know which block of gates are open.
The staff ushering passengers will be needed throughout the time while the barriers are in their present position.

 

[shinkansen1966]

the first passenger attempting to use a ticket for that departure will flag up the attempt and the supervisor will be able to respond by 'authorising' tickets for that departure.
This can create the mistaken impression by the passenger who takes their rejected ticket and tries in the next gate (by which time it will have been authorised) and thinks that one gate worked and the other didn't!
Apparently a lot of passengers have been complaining that 'the barriers made them late' which, after observing several rush-hour departures, I find hard to accept.

Could this have happened to me last night ? Was I the first or indeed the only passenger using a valid off peak day return on the 17:23 to Baldock ?

 

[jon0844]

That reminds me of Farringdon, with signs above the gates to show which ones are operating for in and out (and manually flicked over by staff). Is there a modern equivalent using LEDs that could be put up at stations and operate automatically?

Also, the poster I'd seen before mentioning changes at King's Cross on the 21st said:

'We'll be able to let you know sooner what platform your service departs from. This upgrade could mean more than one service can be advertised so please check that it's the right train before you board"

 

[swt_passenger]

The staff ushering passengers will be needed throughout the time while the barriers are in their present position.

If AIUI the ticket barriers are basically inline with the brick arches, they are already in their final position.

It's the current concourse position that is the main cause of all the problems, they are about 9 months too early with the barriers...

 

[jon0844]

And who says everything in the railway industry is behind schedule!!

 

[swt_passenger]

That reminds me of Farringdon, with signs above the gates to show which ones are operating for in and out (and manually flicked over by staff). Is there a modern equivalent using LEDs that could be put up at stations and operate automatically?

Yes, automatic overhead LED versions that mirror the individual barrier below are part of the current signage standards, but you'll only see them above an intentionally switchable barrier line. The recent big rebuilds at places like Kings Cross LU's various ticket halls seem to have enough barriers for them to only operate one way, so you don't get variable signage.

Tried to find a picture link, but they are on page 71 of the LU signs manual anyway, if you want to look it up, but beware it's a fairly massive pdf (16 Mb) if you haven't a fast connection:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/lu-signs-manual-issue04.pdf

 

[jon0844]

When finished perhaps, but if they're being changed at the moment to manage demand in and out, then these would seem essential (even if just temporarily).

Finsbury Park is getting a whole 5 gates for both in and out, and with people coming up the stairs (therefore being even lower than normal) they're going to find it hard to see which gates are operational.

 

[shinkansen1966]

When finished perhaps, but if they're being changed at the moment to manage demand in and out, then these would seem essential (even if just temporarily).

Finsbury Park is getting a whole 5 gates for both in and out, and with people coming up the stairs (therefore being even lower than normal) they're going to find it hard to see which gates are operational.

I have a bad feeling about Finsbury Park: crowds, problems. I had probs at KX ticket barriers last night and queues quickly built up behind me....

 

[jon0844]

I have a bad feeling about Finsbury Park: crowds, problems. I had probs at KX ticket barriers last night and queues quickly built up behind me....

If it is like WGC, they'll end up opening the gates when it gets busy - so fare evaders can just travel on the busiest trains.

To be fair, there is quite a lot of room on platforms 5/6, with what would appear to be an emergency gate at one side that can slide open.

For platforms 1/2, there's the newly opened waiting area (as against waiting room) that still means obstructions in the form of pillars. Again, I can see the gates being opened a lot of the time.

I can also see that, from the positioning of the heaters for staff, there's a place for staff to stand from the other side of the stairs - presumably to observe crowds coming up and maybe open the gates. All will become clear when it's all finished, but I do think the gates will either cause major problems (delays) or end up being opened so much that they fail to protect revenue at key times.

 

[Aictos]

If AIUI the ticket barriers are basically inline with the brick arches, they are already in their final position.

It's the current concourse position that is the main cause of all the problems, they are about 9 months too early with the barriers...

I'm sure though that Network Rail have stated before that they won't be demolishing the temporary concourse until after the 2012 even though the new concourse opens this year.

Timeline:

2008 Work on western concourse began
2009 Roof restoration began
2010 Extra platform complete, roof restoration complete
2011 New concourse opens
2012 Demolition of existing concourse
2013 New public square complete

 

[jon0844]

Doesn't the new concourse open in late December 2011? It may open early (these projects usually do) but I suppose they don't want to create a real mess ahead of the Olympics - given how busy King's Cross will be.

After all, knocking it down would be one thing - but would they just leave it empty for the event (they wouldn't be able to finish it all).

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure though that Network Rail have stated before that they won't be demolishing the temporary concourse until after the 2012 even though the new concourse opens this year.

Timeline:

2008 Work on western concourse began
2009 Roof restoration began
2010 Extra platform complete, roof restoration complete
2011 New concourse opens
2012 Demolition of existing concourse
2013 New public square complete

Yes, but if the barriers in the end of the train shed are all set to exit, no-one should be waiting for departures in the old (current) concourse, it'll effectively just be a way out to the Euston Rd.

 

[transmanche]

Finsbury Park is getting a whole 5 gates for both in and out, and with people coming up the stairs (therefore being even lower than normal) they're going to find it hard to see which gates are operational.

I really can't see the point of ticket gates at Finsbury Park NR.

The tube station is ungated, due to the fact that there simply isn't the room to provide enough gates to be able to cope with passenger flows. It's the only busy tube station I can think if which is ungated.

So a ticketless passenger arriving at Finsbury Park can simply continue on to Highbury & Islington and enter the tube network there, even taking the tube back to Finsbury Park.

 

[island]

The tube station is ungated, due to the fact that there simply isn't the room to provide enough gates to be able to cope with passenger flows. It's the only busy tube station I can think if which is ungated.

Cannon Street and Kensington Olympia.

 

[jon0844]

So a ticketless passenger arriving at Finsbury Park can simply continue on to Highbury & Islington and enter the tube network there, even taking the tube back to Finsbury Park.

True. I wonder how many people will think of that! At least that scam ends around 10pm. Oh wait, the gates will probably be open long before that.

It would be funny to see Finsbury Park suddenly become half as crowded as it is today, and for crowd control measures to be required at Highbury & Islington!

 

[transmanche]

It's the only busy tube station I can think of which is ungated.

Cannon Street and Kensington Olympia.

2009 entry/exit totals
Kensington Olympia LUL : 1.275 million
Cannon Street LUL: 3.933 million
Finsbury Park LUL: 23.214 million

Like I said... Finsbury Park is the only busy tube station I can think of which is ungated...

 

[shinkansen1966]

I really can't see the point of ticket gates at Finsbury Park NR.

The tube station is ungated, due to the fact that there simply isn't the room to provide enough gates to be able to cope with passenger flows. It's the only busy tube station I can think if which is ungated.

So a ticketless passenger arriving at Finsbury Park can simply continue on to Highbury & Islington and enter the tube network there, even taking the tube back to Finsbury Park.

As far as I can tell, the ticket barrier at Finsbury Park NR will be at the top of the stairs leading down to the exits to street level and to the Underground. If someone were to avoid using these Finsbury ticket barriers, then switch FCC trains from the Kings Cross bound services to Moorgate bound services and change at Higbury & Islington instead.

 

[MikeWh]

True. I wonder how many people will think of that! At least that scam ends around 10pm. Oh wait, the gates will probably be open long before that.

It would be funny to see Finsbury Park suddenly become half as crowded as it is today, and for crowd control measures to be required at Highbury & Islington!

Perhaps it's just me, but I'm looking at the Oyster implications of gating the NR platforms. Obviously those with travelcards are ok, but PAYG users will also need to touch on a validator to put them back in to the system. This presumably means that FP will need to become an OSI rather than the current no touch required? I can see PFs galore while this beds down.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Perhaps it's just me, but I'm looking at the Oyster implications of gating the NR platforms. Obviously those with travelcards are ok, but PAYG users will also need to touch on a validator to put them back in to the system. This presumably means that FP will need to become an OSI rather than the current no touch required? I can see PFs galore while this beds down.

Interesting point.

Let's say you're going northbound on the Victoria line, changing at Finsbury Park and continuing on an FCC train to (say) New Barnet. What will be the Oyster touch in/touch out procedure at Finsbury Park ?

What does OSI stand for ? I should know, but don't.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What does OSI stand for ? I should know, but don't.

OSI = Out of Station Interchange. At a number of Tube, DLR, London Overground and National Rail stations which lie in close proximity, or where interchange requires passengers to pass through ticket barriers, an Out of Station Interchange (OSI) is permitted. In such cases, the card holder touch out at one station and then touch in again before starting the next leg of the journey. The PAYG fares are then combined and charged as a single journey. E.g. At Balham (National Rail) and Balham (London Underground), a maximum permitted interchange time of 20 minutes is allowed.