Thameslink trains becomming tired already?

[Starmill]

I suspect part of the problem is that Thameslink's depot staff aren't really equipped with the resources and time to deal with this much graffiti. You can see evidence of where they've tried to remove it but obviously aren't able to finish the job because there's so much of it. The units probably need to be seen by a specialist contractor who can give them a full shift each to start restoring the panels to their original condition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect part of the problem is that Thameslink's depot staff aren't really equipped with the resources and time to deal with this much graffiti. You can see evidence of where they've tried to remove it but obviously aren't able to finish the job because there's so much of it. The units probably need to be seen by a specialist contractor who can give them a full shift each to start restoring the panels to their original condition.

Or just vinyl them. Quite a few TOCs have gone that way and it's very effective, and well within the capability of depots to do it. Even without vandalism it's far more pleasant (well, less unpleasant) to use a toilet with decorated walls than a little grey prison cell.

It's mostly toilets, but even other surfaces like cab back walls can be vinyled with art or nice scenery. The T&W Metro is doing it from day one on their Stadlers, they ran a competition to choose the art.

 

[AJDesiro]

Or just vinyl them. Quite a few TOCs have gone that way and it's very effective, and well within the capability of depots to do it. Even without vandalism it's far more pleasant (well, less unpleasant) to use a toilet with decorated walls than a little grey prison cell.

It's mostly toilets, but even other surfaces like cab back walls can be vinyled with art or nice scenery. The T&W Metro is doing it from day one on their Stadlers, they ran a competition to choose the art.

I quite like what WMT have done for their toilets to be honest. I think that having some metro tiles printed onto vinyl looks rather classy and much nicer, in my opinion, than a plain wall, even the 390 refurbishments look good with the toilet vinyls.

 

[jon0844]

If Siemens can't afford to keep replacing the egress panel glass (because, frankly, it's a lost cause at this point*), they're unlikely to get the DfT to agree to vinyls. It really does seem like every little detail needs approval, worse than before.

* The solution is to use the metal covers like the 707s and 717s, but - again - money.

 

[Starmill]

Or just vinyl them. Quite a few TOCs have gone that way and it's very effective, and well within the capability of depots to do it. Even without vandalism it's far more pleasant (well, less unpleasant) to use a toilet with decorated walls than a little grey prison cell.

It's mostly toilets, but even other surfaces like cab back walls can be vinyled with art or nice scenery. The T&W Metro is doing it from day one on their Stadlers, they ran a competition to choose the art.

Indeed, you'd imagine that paying to have them all cleaned professionally, and then immediately wrapped in say a pink vinyl (similar to the secondary colour on the website), wouldn't be unreasonably expensive and would actually save money in the long run as they'd not need paint removing again. But I guess that cost would never be approved under the current regime.

 

[Sm5]

I’m reminded of driverless cars. Theoretically they are much safer than human drivers. They are all interlinked and maintain speeds etc.

However the public find the notion of one Granny being flattened by “the computer gone wrong” so unacceptable they prefer the human drivers who, statistically, are much more likely to flatten her.

Since half the time my phone AI lock function declares that my face isn’t my face (!), I can’t see people being sentenced on the basis of AI identification any time soon.

On a different tangent theres the flat earth society who think AI is about to go full Scharzeneggar and terminate humanity, without considering the power of a human and the humble plug socket to end AIs ability to bring armageddon.

The human brain remains far more creative than an AI one, especially when it comes to sci-fi and selling newsprint stories.

But if AI profiles some guy with mental issues carrying a knife, and stops him before he sits next to you on the 0712 to Blackfriars, I doubt you would complain then ? Cctv alone would only record the after math.

 

[Meerkat]

Interesting to hear about the anti-social behaviour on UK public transport. I’ve travelled plenty of times at night in the UK and the continent, and it’s the UK which I often find has problems.

I have a theory that this perception is linked to lack of familiarity.
In the UK I have heard the reputation of many dodgy areas so would be on edge already, I can vaguely understand what UK scratters are saying, and I am familiar with what UK scratters wear and how they behave. I may well have been in similarly dodgy areas abroad and surrounded by foreign scratters, but a lack of familiarity meant I didn't notice.

 

[Dougal2345]

I have a theory that this perception is linked to lack of familiarity.
In the UK I have heard the reputation of many dodgy areas so would be on edge already, I can vaguely understand what UK scratters are saying, and I am familiar with what UK scratters wear and how they behave. I may well have been in similarly dodgy areas abroad and surrounded by foreign scratters, but a lack of familiarity meant I didn't notice.

That's very true, if you don't speak the language how can you tell whether the youngster next to you is talking about politics or his family, or discussing how he's going to stab someone etc...

 

[alex397]

That's very true, if you don't speak the language how can you tell whether the youngster next to you is talking about politics or his family, or discussing how he's going to stab someone etc...

I don’t have a problem with what people are talking about. It’s the aggression and intimidation I have a problem with, where language is no barrier. Maybe on my late night travels on public transport on the continent people have been up to no good, but they appear to do it more quietly and less aggressively!

 

[Egg Centric]

Surely there are companies that would pay for the advertising potential of vinyls in the toilets? At least enough to cover the cost. I assume they last a fair while.

I've seen some "sole traders" doing so!

 

[PG]

I've seen some "sole traders" doing so!

Not many phone boxes around these days!

 

[D7666]

Many of the units have a dirty stripe that starts by the cab door and continues along side of first car , this seems to be caused by onboard flange lubrication system fitted to leading wheelset being defective, a small pipe either side becoming detached and spraying side of train rather than wheel sets , the visual appearance looks like the unit has been driven through a field .

I commented on that dirt stripe only months after they were new when only maybe 25% of them were in use. I did not know the cause. But always the end cars.

I was shot down by defenders of the TOC by some argument I can't remember now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

w.r.t. on board vandalism, and on board patrolling staff, a problem wth 700s that revenue protection persons pointed put to me is the length of the units.

A 700 is a huge train with no bolt holes for staff except the end cabs - and they can be a long way from a cab.

On a 319 they were always within 2 car lengths of a cab, and lock themselves in, if the undesirables became hostile. On a 700 they can be 4 or 6 cars away from a cab, thats a long way to run. Loos are not practical as bolt holes.

This also applies to phone calls. A 700 being a large tube, carries sound a long way, they call for support, possibly away from the person involved, but they can be heard making that call from quite a way off, and be attacked.

And so on.

 

[Supercoss]

the bodyside stains in question where leading wheelset lubricator is spraying side of train not wheel flange

 

[PG]

the bodyside stains in question where leading wheelset lubricator is spraying side of train not wheel flange
View attachment 134535

Presumably this isn't that hard to fix? Are they not being fixed or is there some sort of design fault which means the lubricator soon looses its aim?

 

[Supercoss]

If you look to right of leading wheel, the pipe can be seen above the "lifeguard" very vulnerable location

 

[jon0844]

Has anyone noticed that not only the toilets are getting obliterated now, but also all the seat backs, and the wall panels within the narrow seat pairs? I've also seen above the doors in the vestibule and on the toilets. It's like kids have time to walk through the entire eight coaches of a Sevenoaks train and cover it all without any fear.

Clearly CCTV is covering everywhere but the toilets.

 

[bramling]

Has anyone noticed that not only the toilets are getting obliterated now, but also all the seat backs, and the wall panels within the narrow seat pairs? I've also seen above the doors in the vestibule and on the toilets. It's like kids have time to walk through the entire eight coaches of a Sevenoaks train and cover it all without any fear.

Clearly CCTV is covering everywhere but the toilets.

This is a problem with the walk-through design, as it makes it very easy for such people to both steam through the whole train, and see from some way off that there’s no one else about. Likewise on a train made up of non-gangwayed units there comes a point where they can go no further without switching units on the platform, which would start drawing attention to themselves.

I took a trip to Welwyn earlier this week, and the first class section of the 700/0 I travelled in was in an absolutely trashed state. I don’t think that unit has been to Sevenoaks that day, so it would seem they’re being put into service like this.

Do we know for sure it’s happening on the Sevenoaks route? It wouldn’t surprise me to find Rainham is just as bad.

 

[jon0844]

It was a Sevenoaks train I was on, but - yes - I have no doubt it's happening on Rainham trains too.

While 700s can and do move around, it does seem that the unit numbers are fairly consistent on some routes - almost as if they're trying to limit the spread of the damage to the whole fleet.

It's most notable that a lot of the rubbish is made up of things like sweets and crisps. Given the timing of the train I was on, I'd suspect it is quite likely school kids getting on the train between 1500 and 1600 near the start of the journey from Sevenoaks.

 

[Recessio]

the bodyside stains in question where leading wheelset lubricator is spraying side of train not wheel flange
View attachment 134535

Christ, that's due to a fault? I see that so often I assumed it was just dirt getting kicked up by the wheels... Not a design flaw that in my experience seems to be present in a lot of the units!

 

[MCR247]

I wonder if having light coloured interior panels presents almost a ‘blank canvas’ on trains that go through areas with these problems.

Something like the 345s might be better, at least perhaps as a lesson learnt for the future

 

[physics34]

Every toilet I have been in on the 700s has been covered in graffiti, though I am not a regular user.

Interesting to hear about the anti-social behaviour on UK public transport. I’ve travelled plenty of times at night in the UK and the continent, and it’s the UK which I often find has problems. Can’t think of many places I’ve felt unsafe on public transport on the continent (apart from Paris), and that’s when they usually have no barriers and little staff! UK can feel intimidating and unsafe even with better security.
(I’m not saying that it isn’t an issue in other countries, but this is just my personal experience)

Have to agree about the UK and Paris. Public behaviour at its worst.

 

[PG]

If you look to right of leading wheel, the pipe can be seen above the "lifeguard" very vulnerable location

Right, thanks. I assume it is that U shaped pipe/wire thing that seems to hang down from the rear of the nose fairing? Like you say a vulnerable location, almost as if it was added late on in the design...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Santa SAB there are a few inescapable undeniable facts here which people need to take into account.

1. Thameslink and the DFT don't care about anything except money and spending as little of it as is humanly possible

2. These crapulous trains whilst being able to swallow an insane amount of people were pretty much unfit for purpose in every other sense from day one and I certainly pointed out that the highly utilitarian interiors would be an easy target for vandals but like so many other things regarding new stock on here was shouted down, only to be proved right in a few years time, see my many comments from donkeys years ago on the as yet unbuilt at the time IET fleets and so so many of my prophecies are becoming true in that situation, from short forming to bits that wear out or didn't work in the first place
Same goes for the Thameslink fleets. Rent a thug, merseyrail style is probably not a bad idea but at least give the thugs a days worth of customer service training, even if it's done from home on a computer or tablet with some versatile voiceover attempting to stuff some basic manners into these people who are going to have supreme power to do many nasty things to potential toilet destroyers and fair Dodgers


3. The rain quality on some units is truly awful and whilst for me they have never felt comfortable and inferior to the worst example of preserved or narrow gauge railways run by volunteers, I've certainly noticed a deterioration in the last 12 months. Has their been major change in the maintenance strategy? Or our Siemens simply doing what Siemens do best and being utterly useless here question mark apologies to any employees of that organization but we saw this maintenance dip with the three five zero fleet a few years back and they had to behold up by the short and curlys by the thing London midland to get it right and ensure that more toilets were not locked out of use and that virtually every seat base on the /1 fleet was replaced.

Same went for a while with the TransPennine 185 again until some effort was made

 

[Supercoss]

Right, thanks. I assume it is that U shaped pipe/wire thing that seems to hang down from the rear of the nose fairing? Like you say a vulnerable location, almost as if it was added late on in the design...

pipework attached where arrow shown

 

[PG]

View attachment 134614

pipework attached where arrow shown

Thank you for taking the time to pin point the location for me

So is this a different location from other Classes?

 

[Supercoss]

Nkt aware of any other stock having this Or even same ' family' class 707city beam or 717 Northern City Lines which poses the question if any other UK rolling stock has onboard equipment fitted ?

 

[jhy44]

There's been quite a lot of research into how environments affect perception and behaviour; it's significant, far more than the average person realises. I think the Thameslink Class 700 interiors are some of the worst on the network and encourage bad-behaviour due to their design.

All the bright white plain/blank surfaces, the blue details, the cold light hue. It creates quite a clinical feel, they remind me of sitting in hospital waiting room. It's not at all 'cozy', you wouldn't want to spend all day sat on one reading for example. This is often done intentionally in some urban design to discourage waiting around, for example in train stations where you want people to move through quickly; I don't really see the design need for this on trains though, if this has been done intentionally then it's quite sadistic. The flip side of this is that it makes people feel like this isn't their home; and is therefore more 'game' to commit antisocial behaviour, such as litter, graffiti, etc.

Compare this to the Elizabeth Line 345s. They're far warmer environments. The dark grey panels and the purple moquettes, the warmer light hue, and the colourful TfL advertising on the walls combine to create a much more welcoming environment. Unlike a hospital waiting room, it could be a modern library or a cool coffee shop. It's much 'nicer'. I'm sure most people would agree they'd far rather spend a day sat reading on a 345 than a 700. It almost feels a bit home-like. As a result it makes individuals much less likely to misuse the space.

I'd love to run an experiment and run both stock simultaneously on both lines and then compare the reports of littering/anti-social behaviour on both. I'd be very very surprised if the 700 didn't have statistically-significant higher levels.

 

[AM9]

There's been quite a lot of research into how environments affect perception and behaviour; it's significant, far more than the average person realises. I think the Thameslink Class 700 interiors are some of the worst on the network and encourage bad-behaviour due to their design.

All the bright white plain/blank surfaces, the blue details, the cold light hue. It creates quite a clinical feel, they remind me of sitting in hospital waiting room. It's not at all 'cozy', you wouldn't want to spend all day sat on one reading for example. This is often done intentionally in some urban design to discourage waiting around, for example in train stations where you want people to move through quickly; I don't really see the design need for this on trains though, if this has been done intentionally then it's quite sadistic. The flip side of this is that it makes people feel like this isn't their home; and is therefore more 'game' to commit antisocial behaviour, such as litter, graffiti, etc.

Compare this to the Elizabeth Line 345s. They're far warmer environments. The dark grey panels and the purple moquettes, the warmer light hue, and the colourful TfL advertising on the walls combine to create a much more welcoming environment. Unlike a hospital waiting room, it could be a modern library or a cool coffee shop. It's much 'nicer'. I'm sure most people would agree they'd far rather spend a day sat reading on a 345 than a 700. It almost feels a bit home-like. As a result it makes individuals much less likely to misuse the space.

I'd love to run an experiment and run both stock simultaneously on both lines and then compare the reports of littering/anti-social behaviour on both. I'd be very very surprised if the 700 didn't have statistically-significant higher levels.

I think that the nature of the service and the places served of the two types is far more influential than the colour scheme/lighting/seats. The Lizzie is a high density line running through the centre of London with high levels of security oversight, staff present on every station, and of course no on board toilets. The sections of the lines not in the core also have platformed staff and the stops are very frequent except for the GWML west of Maidenhead, but west London is not known for running through problem localities. Thameslink is run as a minimum staff operation through several difficult areas where stations are unstaffed and the driver is the only GTR member of staff there so if something does kick off that the driver or passengers request support, the miscreants will usually be long gone by the time BTP turn up. It is worth noting that TL had passenege behavior issues back in Class 319 days, particularly on the metro services, and those trains would be seen by some here as more 'cosy' yet they still suffered.

 

[Timmyd]

I think that the nature of the service and the places served of the two types is far more influential than the colour scheme/lighting/seats. The Lizzie is a high density line running through the centre of London with high levels of security oversight, staff present on every station, and of course no on board toilets. The sections of the lines not in the core also have platformed staff and the stops are very frequent except for the GWML west of Maidenhead, but west London is not known for running through problem localities. Thameslink is run as a minimum staff operation through several difficult areas where stations are unstaffed and the driver is the only GTR member of staff there so if something does kick off that the driver or passengers request support, the miscreants will usually be long gone by the time BTP turn up. It is worth noting that TL had passenege behavior issues back in Class 319 days, particularly on the metro services, and those trains would be seen by some here as more 'cosy' yet they still suffered.

The problem with this argument is that other trains running through the same areas - the 377s and the 465s - have nowhere near these problems and generally in my experience immaculate toilets. The 465s used to be terrible but since the PRM mods are generally in very decent nick. The problem with the 700s looks to me like a poor cleaning regime or surfaces which don’t lend themselves to be cleaned effectively - if you look at the images posted above they all look like an attempt has been made at cleaning them but just not a very effective one, making the situation worse.

 

[MML]

Thameslink employ cleaning staff for the turnarounds. I think from memory they are private contractors such as Churchill. I'm not sure of their remit, but staff wafting through the entire length of the train without any duster, disinfectant spray or bin bag doesn't really represent value for money. It doesn't excuse the filthy mess left by the travelling public. One can only imagine the state of their own homes.