Thameslink trains becomming tired already?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

School kids on the 3-4pm Mitcham Eastfields southbounds stop are starting using toilets for Medicinal purposes… 3 times last week I saw a group pilgrammage to the loo, with words along the lines of “pass me a pill”.

disgusting really, but as I dont want to be knifed on a 700 i’ll not step up.

Yes, I really would recommend minding your business on that one!

 

[HSTEd]

The toilets are disgusting. and not just some of them ALL of them. Why even have toilets, the stations are so frequent just get off and get the next train.

You want trains that travel from Cambridge to Brighton to not have toilets?

A lot of stations won't have usable toilets, and the frequency on the extremities is not high.

 

[SE%Traveller]

As regular user of the Sevenoaks service I agree with other posters that's its the loos which bad on the 700s and i'd definitely think it's got worse since the pandemic.

it's the outer london stretch that has the worse reputation on that line i think, St Mary Cray and Bat & Ball in particular

 

[Hadders]

They REALLY are.

Never seen anything quite like it on any other UK or ROI train.

That is bad, and I have seend odd examples like this myself but it's not representative of the whole fleet.

 

[Jozhua]

School kids on the 3-4pm Mitcham Eastfields southbounds stop are starting using toilets for Medicinal purposes… 3 times last week I saw a group pilgrammage to the loo, with words along the lines of “pass me a pill”.

disgusting really, but as I dont want to be knifed on a 700 i’ll not step up.

There is a fairly big ASB issue on trains and wider public transport in the UK generally and London seems to be pretty poor.

More police on the ground just being present seems like it would help, as people are more likely to behave themselves if there is a non-zero chance of a potential night in the slammer for grafitting a toilet, harassing other passengers or being a general nuisance.

It's pretty bad on the trams up in Nottingham too, if it's any solace.

 

[whoosh]

It is the eight cars which have vandalised toilets more often than not.
I think someone on here on another thread suggested covering the toilet walls with a vinyl mural or picture etc. might dissuade the graffiti. Seems an idea worth exploring in my opinion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2023 ==

It's pretty bad on the trams up in Nottingham too, if it's any solace.

They are all Driver Only now aren't they? No more Conductors?

 

[RunRepeat]

I remember a conversation with a chemical supplier a good few years ago, who were looking at trying to make a soap for the carriage washers that would be effective against the grime on the sides of the trains. Looks like no solution was found, and a wash by hand seems to be the only thing that touches it!

I work in this arena, there are solutions but this comes at a price. If there's a will, there's a way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's pretty bad on the trams up in Nottingham too, if it's any solace.

Metrolink also has major ASB issues. Much as I'm not the biggest fan of how they conduct themselves, Merseyrail's "rentathugs" and zero tolerance policy (e.g. prosecuting for feet on seats with no warning) does seem to have worked in making that network feel very safe even at night, so others probably need to copy.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

School kids on the 3-4pm Mitcham Eastfields southbounds stop are starting using toilets for Medicinal purposes… 3 times last week I saw a group pilgrammage to the loo, with words along the lines of “pass me a pill”.

disgusting really, but as I dont want to be knifed on a 700 i’ll not step up.

At least 700's are gangwayed walk-through sets with CCTV throughout (okay, not the toilets)

Try travelling through South East London every night on a slam door EPB with compartments, so no way out if undesirables boarded your compartment. Especially when the light bulbs could be easily removed, chucked out the windows plunging your compartment into darkness

 

[507 001]

They are used intensively and cannot all get back to home depots at end of day for heavy clean.

I remember a conversation with a chemical supplier a good few years ago, who were looking at trying to make a soap for the carriage washers that would be effective against the grime on the sides of the trains. Looks like no solution was found, and a wash by hand seems to be the only thing that touches it!

Painting them white was a truly terrible idea...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Painting them white was a truly terrible idea...

But then a quick lick of paint (in the toilets) to cover the graffiti once back to depot during routine maintenance/exams perhaps (?)

 

[507 001]

But then a quick lick of paint (in the toilets) to cover the graffiti once back to depot during routine maintenance/exams perhaps (?)

Absolutely, wouldn't be too difficult. We regularly repaint the lower part of the cab bulkhead on M5000s as its a tempting target for the graffiti artists.

 

[Turtle]

Absolutely, wouldn't be too difficult. We regularly repaint the lower part of the cab bulkhead on M5000s as its a tempting target for the graffiti artists.

CORRECTION!
Graffiti vandals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely, wouldn't be too difficult. We regularly repaint the lower part of the cab bulkhead on M5000s as its a tempting target for the graffiti artists.

Would it be worth vinylling on some Manchester scenery to remove the temptation? Blank surfaces breed graffiti, yet so many trains are covered in blank surfaces.

 

[BJames]

They are all Driver Only now aren't they? No more Conductors?

No conductors but recently they have really stepped up presence of revenue protection officers (or whatever name they go by here) so fairly regularly see staff on the trams.

I agree with comments about the toilets and unfortunately (and especially in the last few months) it is indeed a majority of toilets that are graffiti-ridden. I reported one particularly bad example to TL over Twitter because it was the worst I'd ever seen.

 

[Meerkat]

Surely there are companies that would pay for the advertising potential of vinyls in the toilets? At least enough to cover the cost. I assume they last a fair while.

 

[Richardr]

As for getting off to go to the toilet and getting the next train. Yes, this would work for the core and possibly some destinations like St. Albans. But when I go to St. Neots it’s half hourly. As are stations between Hitchin - Cambridge, Three Bridges - Horsham, the Sutton Loop south of Streatham, London Bridge - Rainham, some of the stations between Purley - Horley. That’s a lot of sections that would not lend themselves to getting off for a Johnny Cash and then getting the following service. Plus a lot of them don’t have toilets. Someone above also mentioned not feeling safe. Taking the Sutton Loop, if you were to get off to try and go to the toilet at most stations, not only is there not one, but you’d then be stuck at an unstaffed station for half hour, possibly in the dark during winter. By having the toilets on the train this eliminates that. Of course, you can still have trouble on the train but that’s for another thread.

Even in the core, Blackfriars and London Bridge have their toilets outside the barriers - not sure how exiting and re-entering works with all tickets.

Elsewhere, I would imagine that a reasonable amount of toilet usage is late evening trains. Presumably there are even fewer stations that have toilets open late.

 

[bramling]

Metrolink also has major ASB issues. Much as I'm not the biggest fan of how they conduct themselves, Merseyrail's "rentathugs" and zero tolerance policy (e.g. prosecuting for feet on seats with no warning) does seem to have worked in making that network feel very safe even at night, so others probably need to copy.

I don’t have a problem with enforcement, however - as you say - “rentathug” brings its own issues. A professionalised version of that is the solution.

Now for something that’s pretty bad in the evenings, and at some other times, there’s Tyne & Wear Metro. That is quite an experience, especially in the rear car which is essentially left to its own devices, but even in the front car the presence of the driver doesn’t really do much in practice.

Dread to think what Metrolink is like. Thankfully I’ve never had the experience of the airport route in the evening, but I can certainly imagine.

 

[185143]

That is bad, and I have seend odd examples like this myself but it's not representative of the whole fleet.

I don't use 700s that often, but I'd say that one was slightly worse than normal, but not much, in my experience.

 

[Jozhua]

Maybe this can be moved to a new thread?

I'm not against if anyone fancies the move.

It is the eight cars which have vandalised toilets more often than not.
I think someone on here on another thread suggested covering the toilet walls with a vinyl mural or picture etc. might dissuade the graffiti. Seems an idea worth exploring in my opinion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2023 ==



They are all Driver Only now aren't they? No more Conductors?

Yes - all driver only. I think it would be good to have some of the ticket inspectors cycle back and forth on the worst affected sections by ASB at night (e.g. Wilkinson St - Nottingham station)

Metrolink also has major ASB issues. Much as I'm not the biggest fan of how they conduct themselves, Merseyrail's "rentathugs" and zero tolerance policy (e.g. prosecuting for feet on seats with no warning) does seem to have worked in making that network feel very safe even at night, so others probably need to copy.

Yeah, I've seen some sights on Metrolink, but nothing quite as bad as what I've experienced on NET after moving to Notts a couple years ago. What I have heard, however, is ASB has gotten worse across the board in general, so Manchester is probably unfortunately quite similar...

I don’t have a problem with enforcement, however - as you say - “rentathug” brings its own issues. A professionalised version of that is the solution.

Now for something that’s pretty bad in the evenings, and at some other times, there’s Tyne & Wear Metro. That is quite an experience, especially in the rear car which is essentially left to its own devices, but even in the front car the presence of the driver doesn’t really do much in practice.

Dread to think what Metrolink is like. Thankfully I’ve never had the experience of the airport route in the evening, but I can certainly imagine.

T&W metro can be scary during the day! My experience taking a nerdy network completionist trip south of the Tyne the other week was that things were pretty bad there too. Not helped by school holidays I guess - reminds me not to take annual leave during times the kids are off!

 

[yorksrob]

unfortunately a good reason not to have toilets on trains in inner city areas

Most trains end up going to inner city areas at some stage. People need them, especially if there aren't loos on the stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2023 ==

Painting them white was a truly terrible idea...

Indeed - all white based liveries look terrible.

 

[eh_oh]

To be fair to the 700s, it's nothing to do with the actual trains that is the problem, just the maintenance and possibly the choice of paintwork.

Though that said I do mostly agree with the toilets being awful.

 

[physics34]

Time to get tougher with anti social behaviour on trains. That means more staff... which unfortunately is unlikely to happen.

Generally though most 700s i travel on are in a poor state internally and externally. Just not cleaned enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2023 ==

Painting them white was a truly terrible idea...

as i said when they were new. Some real stupid decisions made.

 

[bramling]

Time to get tougher with anti social behaviour on trains. That means more staff... which unfortunately is unlikely to happen.

Generally though most 700s i travel on are in a poor state internally and externally. Just not cleaned enough.

I do think there needs to be a clampdown on behaviour. Things have seriously degenerated since Covid.

Playing music or films out loud would be top of my list. Disgusting behaviour in a public space.

This isn’t just a railway thing, it seems to be an issue in many public spaces.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Or the seemingly-often found conversion of the front and rear first class compartments into a hotbox between Central London and Croydon. This is, of course, in addition to the people vaping throughout the trains.

 

[physics34]

I do think there needs to be a clampdown on behaviour. Things have seriously degenerated since Covid.

Playing music or films out loud would be top of my list. Disgusting behaviour in a public space.

This isn’t just a railway thing, it seems to be an issue in many public spaces.

Yep and having conversations on loudspeaker. Beyond rude. Yep total lack of manners

 

[Hadders]

It isn't just the standard of behaviour on trains that is a problem, it's across all areas of society. The railway cannot solve all of this on its own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't just the standard of behaviour on trains that is a problem, it's across all areas of society. The railway cannot solve all of this on its own.

It can at least strictly enforce it on board.

The law could make it a bit easier for them by allowing a base Penalty Fare to be charged for minor antisocial behaviour e.g. feet on seats or music out loud.

 

[jon0844]

The 700s on the Sevenoaks/WGC service aren't rotated that much, so that might explain how bad things are in terms of how badly they're hit. The toilets have been repainted and within a week, they're covered again. You'll quite likely see that they now cover the ceiling in the toilet and have taken to using white paint to cover the floor also. It's absolutely insane how bad these trains are being hit, and if repainting isn't stopping them then I wonder what will? Vinyls might work to a degree, but you'd need suitable designs/patterns to stop people just covering them and forcing new vinyls almost daily.

You'll probably also see that the 700s on some routes are now almost exclusively without the glass on the egress panels. On some trains, you can see the floor covered - and it can't be cost effective to replace them. Perhaps they will get the 717 style panels in the next refurb?

At the end of the day, they look terrible. People want them kept clean, but that comes at a huge cost. The cost isn't new paint, chemicals to clean paint, or vinyls, it's better policing of the railway - especially the Southeastern stations that appear totally lawless. There's no way you could fix this with penalty fares for anti-social behaviour if such behaviour is so far gone that staff would be in extreme danger. It would take strong police action, and months or years to alter behaviour to a level where you could patrol trains safely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sorry but I think that is gross hyperbole. Merseyrail style "hit squads" equipped with bodycams could absolutely patrol these trains safely, and it would, as it did on Merseyside, make a huge difference if they did.