Formal offer to ASLEF by RDG

[matthewjohnson]

How much disruption will the overtime ban cause do we think?

 

[Kite159]

I think it's fairly obvious why the FA Cup final was chosen, but what ASLEF have miscalculated is that the government couldn't give two stuffs about the FA Cup. So instead fans will just find other ways to get to Wembley. Private coach operators around Greater Manchester will be delighted as I'm sure the bookings will be flooding in. Who knows, perhaps they'll become more popular still as the railways rattle themselves apart...??

Agreed regarding coaches from Manchester, they would already been busy with football fans heading to Wembley, not wanting to trust the rail industry.

At least with private hire coaches they will hang around in the event of extra time + penalties and most likely a lot cheaper than travelling by train. They will just shrug and say "told you so, railways can't be trusted"

 

[Bantamzen]

Agreed regarding coaches from Manchester, they would already been busy with football fans heading to Wembley, not wanting to trust the rail industry.

At least with private hire coaches they will hang around in the event of extra time + penalties and most likely a lot cheaper than travelling by train. They will just shrug and say "told you so, railways can't be trusted"

I can remember back in 1996 when Bradford City went to Wembley for the first time for some promotion playoff finals, we hired buses from all over the region to take over 30K of us there. There were coaches from as far north as Scotland and south as Birmingham showing up. Now more than double that for the FA Cup final and it will be a bumper day for local and not local operators. Any that do well might encourage supporters groups to use them again in future instead of risking it by rail. I wonder if ASLEF took that into consideration...??

 

[Haywain]

but a lot of changes re changes to sick arrangements and annual leave.

The changes to sickness arrangements appear to be about how it is calculated for attendance processes. For most people this wouldn't be considered onerous. And the rejection of the offer doesn't mean ASLEF see that bit as a problem.

What is the annual leave entitlement for drivers ? Does this vary.

Everyone gets pretty much the same, but there can be variations in the arrangements for taking leave and how easily it can be booked.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Until the government provides more money, the RDG can’t offer any more money. There isn’t any to offer. The only way to get a payrise is pay for it through productivity, which quite rightly is a no-go to aslef. Stalemate continues ad infinitum.

 

[Goldfish62]

While I know that might be financially unsound, I dislike this "bubbling along" thing because it's inconvenient and could "bubble along" forever because it doesn't really cause disastrous issues in these days of high car ownership and work-from-home. Personally I'd rather the staff just went "all out" and fully closed the railway until a resolution, as Arriva bus drivers on Merseyside did, though I believe they had some sort of funding that allowed them to get at least some pay during that period. Question is how long it'd take. I suspect probably only weeks.

That's as a passenger.

Drivers received £70 per day strike pay, which is the standard Unite daily rate. Given this was roughly equivalent to a day's take home pay they could hold out indefinitely.

While the drivers won a handsome pay rise the whole thing did such financial damage to Arriva North West that it's resulted in three depots closing, with consequent significant job losses.

An all out strike would play right into the government's hands. It would give them the excuse to impose more draconian cuts on the railways, while sitting back and watching the strike inevitably gradually crumble.

Day stoppages here and there are the right thing to do as much as it disrupts my plans as a passenger.

Given that the government is prepared to let the much more serious teachers and NHS disputes rumble on I expect there's even less incentive to resolve the rail disputes than there was six months ago.

 

[RexMundi]

Are you a member of ASLEF?

Yes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2023 ==

Nothing *needs* to be put to the members. The union can gauge feeling without a formal vote.

Well, they’re not *gauging* my depot very well

 

[mandub]

Yes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2023 ==


Well, they’re not *gauging* my depot very well

Drivers at your depot have seen this offer from.today and they like it and would vote for it given an opportunity??

 

[theageofthetra]

Drivers at your depot have seen this offer from.today and they like it and would vote for it given an opportunity??

Hard to say since so little detail is being revealed about the T & C changes. Why aren't we bring told?

 

[brad465]

I think it's fairly obvious why the FA Cup final was chosen, but what ASLEF have miscalculated is that the government couldn't give two stuffs about the FA Cup. So instead fans will just find other ways to get to Wembley. Private coach operators around Greater Manchester will be delighted as I'm sure the bookings will be flooding in. Who knows, perhaps they'll become more popular still as the railways rattle themselves apart...??

Was there not a time where the Manchester clubs had to go to Wembley and engineering works on the WCML scuppered it somewhat? If so then they're already used to it. Of course if it was down to me I'd not have two clubs next door to each other in one part of the country travelling a long way for a football match, irrespective of strikes/other disruption, but that's another matter entirely.

 

[Urobach]

Well, they’re not *gauging* my depot very well

Really? It's pretty much unanimous anger at the RDG/Govt at mine for the apparent stringing along with no intention of sorting this dispute which seems to be reflected in ASLEF's choice of action

 

[XIX7007177]

They could end the dispute tomorrow at that percentage or thereabouts with no strings attached.

 

[jfollows]

If it’s true that ASLEF members have not had a pay rise since 2019, then a pay rise of 19% to 20% would be required today to keep up with cumulative CPI inflation since then. That’s just maths, I don’t know other facts.
EDIT See https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

 

[XIX7007177]

If it’s true that ASLEF members have not had a pay rise since 2019, then a pay rise of 19% to 20% would be required today to keep up with cumulative CPI inflation since then. That’s just maths, I don’t know other facts.

Correct, not since 2019 at some TOCs.

 

[JonathanH]

it’s been clear to see now for a long time that the RDG/DfT don’t want this dispute to end

I'm sure they do want the dispute to end, they just aren't able / willing to offer what the membership wants.

 

[aleandrail]

Predictable (non) offer I suppose, but so disappointing.
4 face to face meetings, indications ASLEF were expecting a reasonable offer......and then it's 4% + 4% with broad undetailed proposed changes to working conditions.

And I'm knackered for getting to Wembley now too

Out of interest, why are you Knackered for getting to Wembley. if you intended going you will get their no matter what. Will not make the slightest difference to a lot of fans, we will be there. coach companies and Salford van hire will have some great business

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it’s true that ASLEF members have not had a pay rise since 2019, then a pay rise of 19% to 20% would be required today to keep up with cumulative CPI inflation since then. That’s just maths, I don’t know other facts.
EDIT See https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

There's barely an employee anywhere of whom that or something similar isn't true, and I think people are generally pragmatic enough to realise that pay restorations (as the doctors for instance are striking for) are not going to happen in the next few years; they'll need to wait until better times. It does seem to me that something like 5% + 5% with no strings would settle things quite happily, though, and that this is more about conditions than anything else.

 

[mandub]

Out of interest, why are you Knackered for getting to Wembley. if you intended going you will get their no matter what. Will not make the slightest difference to a lot of fans, we will be there. coach companies and Salford van hire will have some great business

I'll be going of course. Doesn't mean I can't go at all.
But I always go aways via train and coaches or driving is very unappealing

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, why are you Knackered for getting to Wembley. if you intended going you will get their no matter what. Will not make the slightest difference to a lot of fans, we will be there. coach companies and Salford van hire will have some great business

I also suspect Megabus, Flix and NatEx will be looking to hire every single accessible coach they can find, as they stand to make a fortune out of this (and will be able to up their fares a bit to cover the cost and make a good profit).

BA might also do well putting on a widebody from Manchester to London and back a few times on those days if they can spare one, and similar the other way for Eurovision. It's been done before.

 

[172007]

T

 

[Frankfurt]

I'm sure they do want the dispute to end, they just aren't able / willing to offer what the membership wants.

The government are able but not willing, same as all the others in dispute, Teachers, Nurses, Civil Servants etc etc.

Drag it all out, pick off a few unions and groups of workers here and there who settle. Meanwhile hope that others start to break and industrial action starts to collapse, or they get through their anti striking bills.

 

[Thirteen]

The MSL Bill is on its third reading so it's likely will get voted in in the next few months.

 

[footprints]

Presumably the impact of the overtime bans on certain dates will vary considerably between different train operating companies. Haven't Aslef drivers refused to work rest days and overtime at Avanti, for example, since last summer?

 

[chrisp37]

We have the Riviera Sleeper booked from Paddington at 23.45pm on Friday 2 June, arriving in St Ives (changing at St Erth) at about 8am on the Saturday morning. Is it reasonably safe to say that that service is not going to run, assuming the strike goes ahead?

 

[NEDdrv]

As per my comment yesterday, seen offer today and not surprised it’s rubbish, no need to ask members ballot results have been high and this will probably make next results even higher yes votes

 

[Robertj21a]

Until the government provides more money, the RDG can’t offer any more money. There isn’t any to offer. The only way to get a payrise is pay for it through productivity, which quite rightly is a no-go to aslef. Stalemate continues ad infinitum.

So......'....productivity is a no-go'....

Is it any surprise that the government etc despair at that sort of comment?

 

[Bantamzen]

Was there not a time where the Manchester clubs had to go to Wembley and engineering works on the WCML scuppered it somewhat? If so then they're already used to it. Of course if it was down to me I'd not have two clubs next door to each other in one part of the country travelling a long way for a football match, irrespective of strikes/other disruption, but that's another matter entirely.

Well Wembley is the biggest ground in the country, and part of the FA Cup tradition, so there will be a lot of fans that disagree. But either way the union are going out of their way to disrupt key events that the general public enjoy, and that a lot of people will want to travel to. And whilst disruption is the point of these strikes, hitting things like this do nothing for public support of the dispute. Meanwhile the government don't give a stuff, and won't budge an inch as a result meaning that the only people that suffer are football fans, the travelling public, and ASLEF members who lose a little more money...

 

[ValentaFan1974]

We have the Riviera Sleeper booked from Paddington at 23.45pm on Friday 2 June, arriving in St Ives (changing at St Erth) at about 8am on the Saturday morning. Is it reasonably safe to say that that service is not going to run, assuming the strike goes ahead?

Almost 99.99999% guaranteed not to run.

 

[Master29]

I wonder if there might have been a minor contributing factor to FA Cup Final day being chosen.

Mick Whelan is a Chelsea fan, Chelsea were beaten 4-0 by Man City in the 3rd round of the cup, and they do say revenge is a dish best served cold...

It's about the only smile anyone from Chelsea will get this year if so.

 

[choochoochoo]

Well Wembley is the biggest ground in the country, and part of the FA Cup tradition, so there will be a lot of fans that disagree. But either way the union are going out of their way to disrupt key events that the general public enjoy, and that a lot of people will want to travel to. And whilst disruption is the point of these strikes, hitting things like this do nothing for public support of the dispute. Meanwhile the government don't give a stuff, and won't budge an inch as a result meaning that the only people that suffer are football fans, the travelling public, and ASLEF members who lose a little more money...

Man Utd should support the strike given their history.