Formal offer to ASLEF by RDG

[VP185]

That doesn't deliver the apparent objective of increased harmonisation of T&Cs though.

Neither does the current offer from the RDG

 

[jon0844]

With inflation looking set to remain high this year, it's an insult to have any changes of conditions for 4%. That's for all rail staff.

If they want to offer such a small percentage, they should simply offer that with no conditions whatsoever. To change conditions, you need to be offering above inflation increases at the very least.

I know a few drivers who had said they're prepared to dig in for a long battle - and why not? They have actual power that ordinary rail staff don't.

 

[87electric]

I think it's time to implement what I've coined "Operation Vatican" in which the DfT, RDG, ASLEF and the RMT are cooped up in a Travelodge and restricted to continental breakfast and bland salads (and denied access to the hotel bar) until a deal is worked out a la the papal elections.

If the deal passes, that's that.

If it doesn't, back to the Travelodge.

And wait for the 37 style clag from a chimney to signal a resolution.

 

[newtownmgr]

Mr. M. Whelan General Secretary ASLEF
Sent by email.
27th April 2023
Dear Mick,
PAY & REFORMS PROPOSAL
I refer to our meeting yesterday and I am setting out in this letter a pay and reforms proposal.
This proposal seeks to reflect the discussions that have taken place at industry‐wide level since mid‐February between representatives of the passenger train operators (TOCs) and the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineman and Fireman (ASLEF) arising from the dispute on pay between the TOCs & ASLEF.
This proposal seeks to balance a fair pay deal for employees with the need for workforce reforms to help put the industry finances on a sustainable footing for the future, recognising that whilst off peak leisure travel has recovered to above pre‐Covid levels overall passenger revenue has plateaued at circa 80% of pre‐covid levels due to lower demand for peak and business travel.
This proposal seeks to resolve the current disputes that exist between ASLEF and TOCs on pay and the associated cessation of further industrial action in this dispute.
PAY OFFER
The proposal comprises a two‐year pay offer which provides for a 4% increase in year one (including retrospective pay) and a further increase of 4% in year two to be based on the successful outcome of reform discussions.
Year one will apply from the respective 2022 TOC pay anniversary date and year two will apply from the respective 2023 TOC pay anniversary date. The exceptions to this are C2C and South‐ West Railway who will receive the year two increase only from 2023 TOC pay anniversary date to reflect they have both received a 2022 pay increase under previously agreed multi‐year deals.
Annual TOC pay negotiations will resume in 2024 reflecting the respective TOC anniversary dates.
Rail Delivery Group Limited Registered Office, 2nd Floor, 200 Aldersgate Street, London EC1A 4HD www.raildeliverygroup.com 020 7841 8000 Registered in England and Wales No. 08176197

YEAR ONE ‐ 2022
Year one will become payable on ASLEF endorsing this proposal through a referendum of its members and subsequent receipt of formal acceptance under the respective TOC collective bargaining arrangements. This proposal includes the industry‐wide reform elements set out below: ‐
o Driver Training Competence Review & Driver Training Complimentary Certificate (Part B) *
o Rolling Stock Procurement*
o Train Driver Career Progression
o New Entrants Driver Salary Progression
o New Improving Attendance Policy
o Rolling Sick Pay Year and New Entrants Sick Pay Qualification Periods o Notice Periods
Each of these elements will be brought forward for discussion in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedures.
* Driver Training Competence Review & Complimentary Certificate and Rolling Stock Procurement elements will continue to have industry‐wide oversight which will include the setting up of an Industry Joint Committee for Rolling Stock Procurement.
YEAR TWO ‐ 2023
Year two will be payable upon successful conclusion of meaningful discussions on reform elements contained within individual TOC proposals which will be held in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedural arrangements.
The scope of these TOC level discussions is to be based on the Bespoke Framework Reform Elements listed below. This will require each TOC to undertake a scoping exercise to determine which elements are appropriate, recognising these will vary by each TOC.
o WorkingArrangementsPrinciples
o Sunday Working (7‐Day Railway) Arrangements
o Diagramming and Rostering Including Leave Arrangements o Spare Turns & Utilisation Arrangements
o Annual Leave Entitlement Arrangements
o NewSMARTTechnologyEquipment
TOCs will bring forward proposals based upon the outcome of the scoping exercise for discussion under the respective collective bargaining procedures. These discussions are on the understanding that progress is concluded in each TOC within an expected three‐month period following any endorsement of this proposal.

I believe the discussions leading up to this proposal have been undertaken in good faith by both parties in order to try and seek a resolution to the current industrial dispute over pay which exists between ASLEF and TOCs. I understand this proposal will be considered by your Executive Committee at the earliest opportunity and you will advise me of the outcome after their due consideration.
Your sincerely,
Steve Montgomery
Chair of Rail Delivery Group (RDG)

Absolute insult of an offer.

 

[VP185]

With inflation looking set to remain high this year, it's an insult to have any changes of conditions for 4%. That's for all rail staff.

If they want to offer such a small percentage, they should simply offer that with no conditions whatsoever. To change conditions, you need to be offering above inflation increases at the very least.

I know a few drivers who had said they're prepared to dig in for a long battle - and why not? They have actual power that ordinary rail staff don't.

Absolutely. We need more than a strike day here and there. We need to walk out for at least a week at a time.

 

[175001]

I think it's time to implement what I've coined "Operation Vatican" in which the DfT, RDG, ASLEF and the RMT are cooped up in a Travelodge and restricted to continental breakfast and bland salads (and denied access to the hotel bar) until a deal is worked out a la the papal elections.

If the deal passes, that's that.

If it doesn't, back to the Travelodge.

Travelodge is like the Ritz.

Put them in a Britannia Hotel establishment I say...

 

[Thirteen]

Absolutely. We need more than a strike day here and there. We need to walk out for at least a week at a time.

You risk losing support from the public though by striking for that long though and I'm not sure that it would be acceptable to lose that money.

I'm surprised ASLEF have opted for the 12th May but I guess they don't want to hurt people going to Eurovision by striking on the 13th.

 

[VP185]

You risk losing support from the public though by striking for that long though and I'm not sure that it would be acceptable to lose that money.

I'm surprised ASLEF have opted for the 12th May but I guess they don't want to hurt people going to Eurovision by striking on the 13th.

Depends how you look at it.

A week long strike may be more effective in getting a satisfactory resolution then a series of one day strikes that carry on over the course of a year.

Public support isn’t going to win staff this dispute. General election looming…..

 

[JonathanH]

General election looming…..

A year and a half away. A long time for this, and other disputes to carry on.

 

[jon0844]

Can't see a general election in the autumn or winter again, unless they can be certain inflation will be down, energy costs won't shoot up as it gets colder, and all the disputes have been settled.

Far more likely to be next May IMO. This means they need to resolve the issues and throw more money at people in the budget to try and make people forget the last 13 years.

 

[Thirteen]

Can't see a general election in the autumn or winter again, unless they can be certain inflation will be down, energy costs won't shoot up as it gets colder, and all the disputes have been settled.

Far more likely to be next May IMO. This means they need to resolve the issues and throw more money at people in the budget to try and make people forget the last 13 years.

I agree, a Spring election is more likely.

 

[43096]

You risk losing support from the public though by striking for that long though and I'm not sure that it would be acceptable to lose that money.

Losing support? Train drivers are always going to be near the bottom of the list for support (along with the likes of MPs) for pay rises. They get paid way more than the average person for fewer hours worked.

 

[trainophile]

I’m affected . Booked to come back from a 2-night stay in Hastings on 12th. I can never remember whether we can use our tickets the next day on strike days?

 

[43066]

I’m affected . Booked to come back from a 2-night stay in Hastings on 12th. I can never remember whether we can use our tickets the next day on strike days?

Almost certainly.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I wonder if there might have been a minor contributing factor to FA Cup Final day being chosen.

Mick Whelan is a Chelsea fan, Chelsea were beaten 4-0 by Man City in the 3rd round of the cup, and they do say revenge is a dish best served cold...

 

[matthewjohnson]

Let the individual TOCs thrash out a deal and keep the DfT out of it. Simple

I thought that was the plan, or has it been hijacked by the gov again?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2023 ==

I wonder if there might have been a minor contributing factor to FA Cup Final day being chosen.

Mick Whelan is a Chelsea fan, Chelsea were beaten 4-0 by Man City in the 3rd round of the cup, and they do say revenge is a dish best served cold...

At least the Utd fans will still be able to get the tube there

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely. We need more than a strike day here and there. We need to walk out for at least a week at a time.

While I know that might be financially unsound, I dislike this "bubbling along" thing because it's inconvenient and could "bubble along" forever because it doesn't really cause disastrous issues in these days of high car ownership and work-from-home. Personally I'd rather the staff just went "all out" and fully closed the railway until a resolution, as Arriva bus drivers on Merseyside did, though I believe they had some sort of funding that allowed them to get at least some pay during that period. Question is how long it'd take. I suspect probably only weeks.

That's as a passenger.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You'd have to add the DfT too.

You'd also have to add H.M. Treasury; the DfT are firmly under the Treasury's control.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought that was the plan, or has it been hijacked by the gov again?

The Government can't really be out of it given that they hold the purse strings.

 

[JonathanH]

Personally I'd rather the staff just went "all out" and fully closed the railway until a resolution, as Arriva bus drivers on Merseyside did, though I believe they had some sort of funding that allowed them to get at least some pay during that period. Question is how long it'd take. I suspect probably only weeks.

I think you would need to make some contributions to the 'fighting fund' to get that to happen.

All out is what might have happened in the past but both sides know it simply isn't affordable to the members.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All out is what might have happened in the past but both sides know it simply isn't affordable to the members.

True. And I think the Government is quite happy to just let this bubble on, with repeated issuing of slightly tweaked offers they know won't be accepted, until the General Election, on the basis that it's another poison chalice to hand over to Labour, and because each day of strike action saves a bit of money.

It all harks a bit back to the end days of Silverlink, where there were a few months of odd days of strike action over some issue or other (pay I think) which Silverlink's management just gave up on and allowed it to continue bubbling on until the end of the franchise, which (due to the change of employer) invalidated the ballot, some sort of offer was made and was accepted fairly quickly.

 

[Watershed]

I’m affected . Booked to come back from a 2-night stay in Hastings on 12th. I can never remember whether we can use our tickets the next day on strike days?

Based on the industry policy for every previous strike day, you'd be permitted to use your ticket the day before, and up to a few days after, the strike day.

 

[westv]

Hull Trains should do well on those days.

 

[Evolution]

Very disappointing but expected, it’s been clear to see now for a long time that the RDG/DfT don’t want this dispute to end and this paltry offer with all the strings attached just proves that point further.

It’s all smoke and mirrors from this ‘government’.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Also withdrawal of overtime (I’m not quite clear whether that’s TOC specific or national, so I won’t mention the dates).

The information shown below comes from the ASLEF press release, and the way I read it, the dates quoted apply to all the TOCs that ASLEF are in dispute with. The relevant bit I have put in bold

‘Consequently, we have today announced three more days of strike action – on Friday 12 May, Wednesday 31 May, and Saturday 3 June – at the companies with which we are in dispute, and which are letting down passengers, and taxpayers, so badly.

‘We are also withdrawing non-contractual overtime from Monday 15 to Saturday 20 May inclusive, as well as on Saturday 13 May and Thursday 1 June.’

The 16 train operating companies include: Avanti West Coast; Chiltern Railways; CrossCountry; East Midlands Railway; Great Western Railway; Greater Anglia; GTR Great Northern Thameslink; London North Eastern Railway; Northern Trains; Southeastern; Southern/Gatwick Express; South Western Railway depot drivers; SWR Island Line; TransPennine Express; and West Midlands Trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

I wonder if there might have been a minor contributing factor to FA Cup Final day being chosen.

Mick Whelan is a Chelsea fan, Chelsea were beaten 4-0 by Man City in the 3rd round of the cup, and they do say revenge is a dish best served cold...

I think it's fairly obvious why the FA Cup final was chosen, but what ASLEF have miscalculated is that the government couldn't give two stuffs about the FA Cup. So instead fans will just find other ways to get to Wembley. Private coach operators around Greater Manchester will be delighted as I'm sure the bookings will be flooding in. Who knows, perhaps they'll become more popular still as the railways rattle themselves apart...??

 

[Bungle73]

I'm sure to be in Edinburgh from the 15th to the 19th. This overtime thing has got me worried. I'm considering cancelling it.

 

[mandub]

Predictable (non) offer I suppose, but so disappointing.
4 face to face meetings, indications ASLEF were expecting a reasonable offer......and then it's 4% + 4% with broad undetailed proposed changes to working conditions.

And I'm knackered for getting to Wembley now too

 

[matthewjohnson]

Hull Trains should do well on those days.

Already booked GC for the Test match on the 3rd, although I might miss the start and the end of the day's play

 

[winks]

Have to say the RDG really are showing themselves up to be a hopeless lobby group who work on the orders of the Govt. 4 / 4% was expected but a lot of changes re changes to sick arrangements and annual leave.

What is the annual leave entitlement for drivers ? Does this vary. It was put to me by a manger once that “we bow down to the drivers!”

Sounds like the govt want a fight with them too