What should passengers do if the ticket machine at their origin station has failed?

[RedPostJunc]

Moderator note: Split from

Modern fare dodgers hunted down by rail bosses

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/22/train-fare-dodgers-digital-footprint-fraud-prosecutions/ ...Northern has warned fare dodgers they are leaving a “trail of digital breadcrumbs” that is seeing them prosecute around 1,000 fraudsters every month. The company has established a Digital...

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The Comments section which accompanied that article showed that many passengers thought that they could always pay on board. I know that the position is confusing - e.g. penalty fare areas, compulsory ticket areas, no ticket machines etc, but clearly the general public do not always realise that you should have a ticket before you board unless you don't have to.

What are you supposed to do when you turn up at a station where there is no ticket office (or it is closed) and the only machine is out of order? It happened to me once and I took a photo of the machine, which I showed to the barrier staff when I reached my destination. They quite happily issued me with a ticket. However, this was a normal employeee, not an RPO. I'm not convinced that RPOs would have handled things the same way.

 

[island]

What are you supposed to do when you turn up at a station where there is no ticket office (or it is closed) and the only machine is out of order? It happened to me once and I took a photo of the machine, which I showed to the barrier staff when I reached my destination. They quite happily issued me with a ticket. However, this was a normal employeee, not an RPO. I'm not convinced that RPOs would have handled things the same way.

If you find no ticketing facilities available you are entitled to board a train without a ticket and buy at the first opportunity. An RPO should have treated you identically. There is no obligation for you to take photos of defective machines though this can help your journey go without issue.

 

[spag23]

There is no obligation for you to take photos of defective machines

No obligation, but:
Five seconds of photographing broken machine and unmanned ticket window
versus:
10 minutes of arguing with disbelieving RPI
Public accusation of fare evasion
Several hours of correspondence and forum trawling
Possible fine and criminal record

If only every choice in life were that easy.

 

[Haywain]

No obligation, but:
Five seconds of photographing broken machine and unmanned ticket window
versus:
10 minutes of arguing with disbelieving RPI
Public accusation of fare evasion
Several hours of correspondence and forum trawling
Possible fine and criminal record

If only every choice in life were that easy.

None of the latter is likely unless you happen to be the only passenger who has found the machine to be out of service.

 

[spag23]

None of the latter is likely unless you happen to be the only passenger who has found the machine to be out of service.

But you may be one of the first passengers on the RPI's shift to employ this excuse (and have it rejected). And maybe it's only after the 3rd or 4th issue of a PF that the RPI starts to believe the passengers.
Plus TVMs have been reported on this forum as intermittently not working; so open to dispute.
I'd still invest in taking photos/videos.

 

[AdamWW]

If you find no ticketing facilities available you are entitled to board a train without a ticket and buy at the first opportunity. An RPO should have treated you identically. There is no obligation for you to take photos of defective machines though this can help your journey go without issue.

I have been told that I shouldn't worry because a defective machine will always report its failure and this will be known to staff inspecting tickets.

I am not entirely convinced.

It seems strange to accept that machines may fail but think that the method of communicating such failure is guaranteed to work perfectly, though of course it is convenient to take this position.

I take a photo when a machine refuses to work for me.

 

[Haywain]

It seems strange to accept that machines may fail but think that the method of communicating such failure is guaranteed to work perfectly, though of course it is convenient to take this position.

Inevitably this may depend on the nature of the failure, and the nature of the back office reporting. An unresponsive machine will not necessarily report that it is out of service, and in such a case a photograph may not help either.

 

[yorkie]

What are you supposed to do when you turn up at a station where there is no ticket office (or it is closed) and the only machine is out of order? It happened to me once and I took a photo of the machine, which I showed to the barrier staff when I reached my destination. They quite happily issued me with a ticket. However, this was a normal employeee, not an RPO. I'm not convinced that RPOs would have handled things the same way.

Although there is no requirement to do anything other than pay at the destination when this occurs, as others have said it can be a good idea to take a photo of the machine if you are able to do so.

It's also worth noting that many tickets these days can be issued as e-tickets, so if you have a mobile device on you, it may be less hassle to buy an e-ticket rather than take a photo; the forum's site makes it clear at the search stage if e-tickets are available.

 

[AdamWW]

Inevitably this may depend on the nature of the failure, and the nature of the back office reporting. An unresponsive machine will not necessarily report that it is out of service, and in such a case a photograph may not help either.

Quite - and intermittent failures are even worse.

I once tried to help a passenger with an unresponsive ticket machine and couldn't get it to do anything either.

Then a few minutes later someone else came along and it worked for them.

If I get on a train and say that the machine didn't work, and another passenger who boarded at the same time had a ticket from the same machine it might not be very convincing, even if it is the truth.

 

[MotCO]

Although there is no requirement to do anything other than pay at the destination when this occurs, as others have said it can be a good idea to take a photo of the machine if you are able to do so.

It's also worth noting that many tickets these days can be issued as e-tickets, so if you have a mobile device on you, it may be less hassle to buy an e-ticket rather than take a photo; the forum's site makes it clear at the search stage if e-tickets are available.

View attachment 133745

Would this complicate matters since, if there was a ticket inspection, it would be apparent that the ticket was purchased after boarding, maybe because the ticket inspectors were spotted? You would then have to argue that the TVM was out of order, which may not be believed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would this complicate matters since, if there was a ticket inspection, it would be apparent that the ticket was purchased after boarding, maybe because the ticket inspectors were spotted? You would then have to argue that the TVM was out of order, which may not be believed.

Why would you wait until after boarding? You've got to the station with time to use the TVM, it's broken, so you spend that time buying one on your phone instead.

 

[AdamWW]

Would this complicate matters since, if there was a ticket inspection, it would be apparent that the ticket was purchased after boarding, maybe because the ticket inspectors were spotted? You would then have to argue that the TVM was out of order, which may not be believed.

I think that would not be a good idea.

If there's time to buy an e-ticket before boarding then it makes sense if possible. Otherwise I think you're better off not doing anything.

 

[jfollows]

I have been told that I shouldn't worry because a defective machine will always report its failure and this will be known to staff inspecting tickets.

I am not entirely convinced.

I am completely convinced that this is untrue.
I would personally take a picture of the broken machine if I could, and I'd just be prepared to argue my case if I couldn't. If I couldn't take a picture then I'd be unlikely to be able to buy an e-ticket either.

 

[AdamWW]

Why would you wait until after boarding? You've got to the station with time to use the TVM, it's broken, so you spend that time buying one on your phone instead.

If you're not used to buying e-tickets then figuring out how to do that and typing in credit card details etc. may well take longer than using a ticket machine.

 

[MotCO]

Why would you wait until after boarding? You've got to the station with time to use the TVM, it's broken, so you spend that time buying one on your phone instead.

Doh! Of course.

 

[AdamWW]

I am completely convinced that this is untrue.

I do not see how it can possibly be true.

But I can see why it would not be helpful for the railway to make it too easy for people to claim that they had encountered a dodgy ticket machine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're not used to buying e-tickets then figuring out how to do that and typing in credit card details etc. may well take longer than using a ticket machine.

You've probably not left enough time if that's the case, because remember there could be a queue ten deep at the TVM, so "just enough time to use the TVM if there isn't a queue" is not enough time to leave.

However, if you do end up in that position and it's not a DOO train, proactively finding the guard (you'll see them on the platform) and explaining is probably the best bet.

In the end you can just board and quote your rights, but if you show willing your day is likely to be much smoother.

 

[mangyiscute]

Yeah when I've had issues with a ticket office queue taking forever (over 10 mins!) I've gone up to the guard and asked them (I've also done this when delays have caused me to take an invalid train) and every single time they've been great and let me travel/sold me a ticket if required

 

[spag23]

Yeah when I've had issues with a ticket office queue taking forever (over 10 mins!) I've gone up to the guard and asked them

This won't work at St Albans City. 15-20 minute queues, and the trains are DOO.

 

[Snow1964]

Why would you wait until after boarding? You've got to the station with time to use the TVM, it's broken, so you spend that time buying one on your phone instead.

Not if you only have cash, and no cards or stored bank details with you as, as online sites are anti-cash transactions

 

[SuspectUsual]

I have been told that I shouldn't worry because a defective machine will always report its failure and this will be known to staff inspecting tickets.

I am not entirely convinced.

That’s true to a point. From memory of a conversation with someone at Northern a few years ago, TVMs send a message back periodically (no idea what the frequency is) basically saying “hello I’m working”, so if that signal isn’t received the host system knows the machine has failed.

However, that won’t work for an unresponsive machine, as others have said.

In addition, it would’ve been no use to me on the morning I went to a local station to me and found the (then only) machine covered in spit and phlegm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not if you only have cash, and no cards or stored bank details with you as, as online sites are anti-cash transactions

Indeed. In which case the best plan is to simply act like you're not trying to get away with it. For instance if you see the guard in the rear portion of the train formed of two units don't go sit in the front one, and if they come through proactively ask to buy a ticket and don't wait to be asked.

You can, as I said, just sit and bleat about your rights, but being proactive and not acting like a casual evader will mean an easy life.

 

[mangyiscute]

Not if you only have cash, and no cards or stored bank details with you as, as online sites are anti-cash transactions

I'd love to hear a suggestion on how online sites can become anti-cash?

 

[Wolfie]

Why would you wait until after boarding? You've got to the station with time to use the TVM, it's broken, so you spend that time buying one on your phone instead.

Possibly because the station is in blackspot and the train would take you out of that? Or you have limited or no 4/5G data and want to use the onboard WiFi?

 

[bob007]

In this day and age, I would not board if there is a defective machine unless I had cash.

You are likely to be treated as guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

I’ve had northern machines fail to process payment - how do I prove that? No error messages. Machine appears working and functional if you just look at the screen. I don’t trust them to accurately detect faults on such a complex machine/system.

 

[Howardh]

None of the latter is likely unless you happen to be the only passenger who has found the machine to be out of service.

At my local station I could well be the only passenger that evening, so yes I could well be that passenger.

If something's wrong and I'm unable to photograph it, at least I know where the guard will pop out so I can speak to her/him. One plus over driver-only trains!

 

[purple-Azumas]

To extend this, I was at a station the other day having booked and paid for tickets for ToD collection. Got to the station and the TVM was working fine, just not for ToD collection (see image).

What am I supposed to do here? The TVM was working fine to buy tickets if you hadn't booked in advance, so it wasn't as if there weren't available facilities when boarding but obviously I wouldn't want to buy another ticket when I had one already, just not printed out!

Asked the guard of the service and he said we'd sort it out at the destination but would be interested as to the legal position here.

(Image shown LNR TVM with 'Collect prepaid ticket(s)' button greyed out)

 

[Furryanimal]

I have twice in recent months had TFW machines refuse to authorise my card.Fortunately on both occasions the ticket office has been open and my card worked in it with no problem.
I don't possess a phone that I could buy a ticket on ( only does calls and texts)so if the office had not been open I would have had to trek to the nearest cash point.
And at my local station it's a ten minute walk away.

Technology is wonderful when it works.
My card has never been a problem in any pub,cafe or shop.Or getting into a sports ground when paying on the gate.
Just TFW ticket machines!
But would I be believed if I boarded a train at my local unbarriered station and claimed that?
There was also the occasion the ticket machine only issued the outward ticket....again I was fortunate the ticket office open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly because the station is in blackspot and the train would take you out of that?

Or you have limited or no 4/5G data and want to use the onboard WiFi?

There's always a niche answer. In that case, make sure you buy ASAP and proactively explain why you bought after departure rather than waiting to be asked.

 

[GodAtum]

I had this problem at Earlswood. I tweeted Southern who told me to buy a ticket on their app which I couldn't as the train was too near time of departure. So I bought a ticket for the next train and got on the one I was waiting for. At East Croydon I just showed my purchase at the ticket counter before the barrier exit and he printed it off so I could exit.