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Britain Better Connected: Labour's Transport Policy Review

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The banks were like parents who allowed their children too many sweeties. You can't blame the children for not knowing enough to say no.

And until Brown took it away the Bank of England regulated the lending banks. Once Brown took that regulation away the banks went out of control lending money to people who used their property as collateral. The banks were more than happy to lend money, after all if people couldn't eventually repay the loan the bank aquired a house to sell as profit and the local council had another tenant to find a council house for - as well as all the ones for the eastern european and middle eastern immigrants that Labour let in and are now admitting that it was a mistake that got out of control. Incidentally, Brown did admit that the apparent Labour early success with the economy was due to a combination of inheriting a strong economy - the strongest in Europe at the time - and luck.

But enough of this and back to railways. Labour is not good for rail, never has been and never will be. They had thirteen years to right wrongs and completely blew it from fatty Prescot's nonsense to put people back on the rails to Byers' deeply flawed liquidation of Railtrack.
 
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Greenback

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You can't blame children, no, but the grown ups who signed up for these credit cards/ took out these loans/ naively assumed that house prices only ever went up... should hold their hands up too.

Bankers and politicians are to blame (as are journalists who kept telling us how rising house prices meant we were all richer), but we need some personal responsibility in this country, we need to learn that there is no such thing as "free" money (even if politicians etc want to pretend).

Yes, there is an element of blame to those who were foolish enough to be duped into borrowing too much, but more blame should be attached to the bankers!

And until Brown took it away the Bank of England regulated the lending banks. Once Brown took that regulation away the banks went out of control lending money to people who used their property as collateral. The banks were more than happy to lend money, after all if people couldn't eventually repay the loan the bank aquired a house to sell as profit and the local council had another tenant to find a council house for - as well as all the ones for the eastern european and middle eastern immigrants that Labour let in and are now admitting that it was a mistake that got out of control. Incidentally, Brown did admit that the apparent Labour early success with the economy was due to a combination of inheriting a strong economy - the strongest in Europe at the time - and luck.

But enough of this and back to railways. Labour is not good for rail, never has been and never will be. They had thirteen years to right wrongs and completely blew it from fatty Prescot's nonsense to put people back on the rails to Byers' deeply flawed liquidation of Railtrack.

Back to railways, and I thought Labour's record in this area was very poor, at least until Adonis came along!

If Railtrack hadn't decided to use their bailout to pay shareholders a dividend then maybe he wouldn't have taken such drastic action.

Quite. I think Railtrack was effectively dooemd form that point on.
 

LE Greys

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Quite. I think Railtrack was effectively dooemd form that point on.

Frankly, Railtrack was doomed from the start. They were the worst possible aspect of privatisation, a company not responsible for running the lines they owned and not handling their own maintenance but subcontracting it. Their main concern was keeping their shareholders happy, not running a safe and efficient railway. Stephen Byers did the world a favour by nixing the company, then did something very stupid by not renationalising it on the spot.
 

Greenback

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I think I agree with that. It was a flawed concept and Railtrack behaved more like a property developer. I just think that the dividend was the straw that broke the camels back, and it was that which ensured that the company would be finished.

Network Rail is also a flawed concept, and will shortly be doomed as well!
 

tbtc

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To continue this point even talking about debt as percentage of GDP can be somewhat simplistic as GDP is not a fixed number. IIRC between 97 and 02 GDP grew by 33% so what we are really talking about isn't debt reducing but rather growing slower than the economy. National debt hasn't actually gone down in real terms since WWII just in some periods grown slower than the wider economy.

Going back to rail issues as you note refranchising will be interesting an interesting test to see what the current administration does differently. IMHO premium payments, cap and collar, ROSCO fee's and infrastructure co-payments all need to be addressed in the next batch of franchises.

The fundamental question is I suppose are railways a public service or commercial venture..

True, but I think that "debt as a percentage of GDP" is the least worst way of measuring it. Debt is relative, and the ability to repay it becomes easier the more you have. A Student with £20,000 of debts may struggle, yet a few years later (once working full time) may get a £150,000 mortgage no trouble.

As you say, there was a period where growth went up significantly under Labour, as did tax receipts (not necessarily at exactly the same percentage, of course), which makes the inherited debt more manageable.

Trouble with debt is that you can usually chose your figures to suit your argument, you can easily say that debt under Labour was higher than it was under the Tories (in cash terms), but if the economy grows 10% then the "cost" of that debt becomes a lot easier.

Agreed also about where the problems lie in the railways. Things could be so much simpler and cheaper, and if this Government can tackle them (rather than *saying* they will, as Labour did) then I'll have to give credit where its due.
 

w1bbl3

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True, but I think that "debt as a percentage of GDP" is the least worst way of measuring it. Debt is relative, and the ability to repay it becomes easier the more you have. A Student with £20,000 of debts may struggle, yet a few years later (once working full time) may get a £150,000 mortgage no trouble.

As you say, there was a period where growth went up significantly under Labour, as did tax receipts (not necessarily at exactly the same percentage, of course), which makes the inherited debt more manageable.

Trouble with debt is that you can usually chose your figures to suit your argument, you can easily say that debt under Labour was higher than it was under the Tories (in cash terms), but if the economy grows 10% then the "cost" of that debt becomes a lot easier.

Oh absolutely and this where the economic cycle adage that Brown as chancellor was so fond repeating comes into play. Shame he seemed to completely and utterly not understand the concept, off balance sheet spending, direct deficit spending during a period of growth. The concept would have only ever worked if basic economic principles had been followed run a surplus during the good times to pay for reduced tax receipts and stimulus investment during the bad...

We've ended up with shadow toll roads, PFI council house refurbishments and TOC's being forced to lease pay as you go trains. In all cases direct procurement by state borrowing would have been cheaper. If the state is going to specify trains, timetables and subsidise the operators to run the service why oh why do private companies then need to lease said trains back to the TOC's.
 

Zoe

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The theory was that you have a few private leasing companies as this would allow competition and so lower leasing costs. This isn't the way it has worked in practice though.
 

jon0844

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Competition is great, in theory, except that when you have many companies that can compete with each other - they end up buying each other, or forming cartels to control the industry.

You then need a regulator with strong teeth.
 

passmore

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More political propaganda from a party less interested in the railways than the Tories.

When will people realise that these glossy mandates are nothing more than ego massaging?
 

LE Greys

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Competition is great, in theory, except that when you have many companies that can compete with each other - they end up buying each other, or forming cartels to control the industry.

You then need a regulator with strong teeth.

Besides, it doesn't work on a single route because of path-blocking and lack of flexibility to alter timetables. Given two routes between the same basic points (Paddington-Exeter and Waterloo-Exeter for instance) than the operators (FGW and SWT) can compete effectively. Or at least they could if SWT could make decisions about investment in the route, such as full dualling and speed increases - remembering that their fastest service is still slower than the ACE in steam days. That can't happen under the current model, indeed timetable changes have to go through a different authority. The GWR and SR were effective competitors on London-Exeter, FGW and SWT are not.

As for cartels and mergers, they were very much the thing in the pre-grouping. The "Euston Square Confederacy" operated for years, involving the LNWR, the Midland and the MS&LR with an effort to stop the expansion of the GNR, principally aimed at stifling GNR London traffic. It failed, leading to the Midland deciding to build its own line to London. Price wars were common, which was ultimately good for passengers but not for profits. Races developed to various places (London-Scotland, Plymouth-London, Dover-London and so on). Another cartel was the "Three Greats", GNR, GER and GCR. This was more an agreement to share traffic and not compete too much, and ultimately all three merged to form the southern LNER anyway.

All good clean fun, and ultimately of some benefit to the passenger and goods customer. Each company competed to build better, faster and more powerful engines, smoother, more comfortable and better appointed coaches and bigger, faster wagons. They owned the works that built them, so it was easy to do. New routes and new yards appeared regularly to tap new freight flows, while improved stations provided better passenger facilities. Basically, being an integrated company led to flexibility, thus improving competition. As for regulation, this was the Victorian era and it was minimal to say the least. Did that cause problems? Sometimes. Did it ultimately lead to a worse situation? In my opinion, NO!

These unregulated companies were usually fiercely independent and protective of their territory. Look at the Hull and Barnsley railway, built to undercut the North Eastern and their traffic from Hull docks by connecting them to the GNR, Midland, L&Y and MS&LR. This provoked a huge price war, but did not put the H&B out of business, indeed Hull gained more traffic. If either had reduced service, the other would have jumped in and grabbed the business. Ultimately, they sorted out their differences, cooperated to build the King George Dock, and finally merged in 1921.

As for Mergers, the LNWR decided to acquire the L&Y to reduce competition in their home territory and intrude into Midland and GNR territory. That was more a political move than anything. The Midland bought the LT&SR to gain access to Tilbury docks, making this a strategic move. The SER and LC&DR merged simply because they had been competing for so long for the same traffic that both sides were really getting nowhere, and merger would be easier on both. If it were not for the Grouping, then the southern half of the LNER would probably have formed anyway (see "Three Greats" above).

OK, it might have been messy sometimes, but it gave us a network of track that very few countries match. On the whole, it was a good thing. Stifling it by splitting the wheel from the rail was insane, and I have no idea why anyone would think that it was a good idea in the first place.
 

Aictos

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But enough of this and back to railways. Labour is not good for rail, never has been and never will be. They had thirteen years to right wrongs and completely blew it from fatty Prescot's nonsense to put people back on the rails to Byers' deeply flawed liquidation of Railtrack.

I quite agree, 13 years is more then enough to right wrongs and they blew it from the start - The only decent Labour Secretary of State for Transport in that period was Adonis and he came in far too late.

What did Labour get right/wrong during our time in government?

Not renationalising when Labour had the chance!
 

Zoe

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Not renationalising when Labour had the chance!
At the 2004 Labour party conference a motion was passed to renationalize the railways but Gordon Brown overruled it. New Labour were never soclialist and just continued with the private finance policies first introduced by John Major's Conservative government.
 
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Ivo

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So is this new idea actually an idea of their own at all, or are they just probing their voters for ideas? Are Labour that pathetic that they can't even tell what needs to be done? Or is this to be expected of Maria Eagle, who would seem to be about at competent at transport policy as my 3-year-old niece?

Typical of a political party though; include a "Join Us!" link...
 

SS4

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Why would they publish an alternative so early in the coalition? For me two theories spring to mind

A) Labour want to sow the seeds of discontent and force an election (troublemaking for the AV referendum?)
B) It will be forgotten about by the next election.

Similar to what Zoe said about New Labour I don't think the Labour party's founders would recognise that incarnation of their party.
 

WatcherZero

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So is this new idea actually an idea of their own at all, or are they just probing their voters for ideas? Are Labour that pathetic that they can't even tell what needs to be done? Or is this to be expected of Maria Eagle, who would seem to be about at competent at transport policy as my 3-year-old niece?

Typical of a political party though; include a "Join Us!" link...

Its the job of a party to find out what the people want and to represent their interests and concerns, are we so jaded that when a party asks us what we want now we feel they should be telling us what we want like a dictator?
 

w1bbl3

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The theory was that you have a few private leasing companies as this would allow competition and so lower leasing costs.

The concept was flawed from the outset when ROSCO's acquired whole fleets of the same train leaving TOC's with no ability to negoiate on cost.

Need 91's and mk4's? Eversholt Rail are the only option, 20+ fleet of 43's and mk3's angel trains etc...

Current deals where the ROSCO comes as part of the order really don't show good value. TfL London rail obviously figured this out by arranging leasing after placing their order.
 

WatcherZero

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Thats how the Dft procurement works, they choose the trains and specs and arrange finance then have a ROSCO take them on to manage the leasing.
 

Zoe

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Current deals where the ROSCO comes as part of the order really don't show good value. TfL London rail obviously figured this out by arranging leasing after placing their order.
tfl were originally going to own their stock but later changed their mind and decided to use a ROSCO.
 

w1bbl3

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QW Rail was setup for the purpose of leasing the 378's to TfL / LOROL which is somewhat different to the remaining ROSCO's. IIRC TfL announced at the time that refinancing the order via leasing was no more expensive than outright purchase.

The competition commission study into ROSCO's provides some useful background and how and why the deal is very different, 20 year term with right to extend or buy at the end.
http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/inquiries/ref2007/roscos/pdf/prov_find_app_4_4.pdf
 

ApAp

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QW Rail was setup for the purpose of leasing the 378's to TfL / LOROL which is somewhat different to the remaining ROSCO's. IIRC TfL announced at the time that refinancing the order via leasing was no more expensive than outright purchase.

So if it's around the same price why not just buy it outright?
 

w1bbl3

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Under the finance deal tfl can terminate at 20 years with no further costs due, what hasn't ever been disclosed is if equivalence on cost is after 20 years or based on finance extension to end of economic life say 40 years...

Also with leasing tfl don't have to deal with disposal or account for any risks of non sale. IIRC porterbrook have an extensive collection of mk2 coaches for sale in various states of storage / decay that no party wishes to buy.
 
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