Northern managers bonus, from MEN

[Bluejays]

You’ve nothing against the people that are trying to undermine the dispute? You’ve lost money whilst they’ve been paid extra.

I don't think most of them had a choice. I don't expect people to suffer hardship themselves just to help me out. My issue is with the TOC higher management and the dft .

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't think most of them had a choice. I don't expect people to suffer hardship themselves just to help me out. My issue is with the TOC higher management and the dft .

Their job is to get the trains moving. Should the passengers suffer because of ideology ? They already are.

The problem is that everyone is simply doing their job, have suffered losses due to lack of a pay rise and due to industrial action.

Difficult to knock people trying to earn a crust.

 

[baz962]

The only objections I have are that

A) the bonuses paid to contingency managers on top of the normal wage they already receive are often very far in excess of the wages of the staff they stand in for, and very often they don't even conduct the full duties of the grade

B) when in receipt of these bonuses, plus their normal salary, they even get provided a packed lunch, whereas any and all lunch opportunities provided to us for things like full length training days were cost cut out of existence years ago When I first started it was a local deli provided a sandwich platter and snacks and it made you feel welcome. Then it got degraded to a Rail Gourmet sandwich. Then, nothing. Yet a contingency guard books on to ride around in a cab all day not even checking tickets and they get bottles of pop, sweets, sandwiches etc provided!

It does nothing to help industrial relations issues to hear there is no money in the pot, only to see it being chucked at clerical staff having a day out playing trains.

They also get a hotel. Plus they don't do anything bar the bare minimum. Dispatch only and don't leave the cab.

 

[Horizon22]

Because OLR money is public money.

So we should never pay overtime, wages, or any sort of bonus? You do realise that the reason some train companies have had so many cancellations and delays is due to no sanctioning of new rest day working rates which, outside of the DfT control, most TOCs would have been able to wotrk out fine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

The only objections I have are that

A) the bonuses paid to contingency managers on top of the normal wage they already receive are often very far in excess of the wages of the staff they stand in for, and very often they don't even conduct the full duties of the grade

Not sure that's entirely true; it may be for contingency guards (i.e no revenue training and very limited / one route), but contingency dispatchers have to be just as qualified as any regular dispatcher and maybe frontline managers are anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

They also get a hotel. Plus they don't do anything bar the bare minimum. Dispatch only and don't leave the cab.

If they live miles away from the depot they have been designated to cover, that's probably reasonable. It's not likely the "60 minute" rule applies when you're desperate to get a service running and these managers may not have any alternative to get to the book on point for 0400-0500.

It's not like this is the norm - it is for one-off situations.

 

[Starmill]

They also get a hotel. Plus they don't do anything bar the bare minimum. Dispatch only and don't leave the cab.

How are they supposed to cover the work without staying overnight nearby if they don't usually work from that location? Are you saying that they should be paying for the accommodation themselves?

 

[baz962]

How are they supposed to cover the work without staying overnight nearby if they don't usually work from that location? Are you saying that they should be paying for the accommodation themselves?

They could travel. In fact we go as far or further than they do for example for our medical and we don't get a hotel and quite a few of them work at our depot during normal times.

 

[Starmill]

They could travel. In fact we go as far or further than they do for example for our medical and we don't get a hotel and quite a few of them work at our depot during normal times.

I'm not being rude but I'm not sure why you need an overnight stay for a medical? I wouldn't agree to work a safety critical job from a remote location starting early in the morning and I'm sure you wouldn't either. Pretty basic stuff.

 

[43066]

for example for our medical

Indeed - and can be expected to be there at 0900, which for me means leaving home at 0500 and for others wouldn’t be possible at all . Worse now that they’ve moved it that much further north.

 

[CC 72100]

They could travel. In fact we go as far or further than they do for example for our medical and we don't get a hotel and quite a few of them work at our depot during normal times.

Do you do a full day's of train working on your medical day?

I guess not.

 

[baz962]

Do you do a full day's of train working on your medical day?

I guess not.

Do our contingency managers work a full day when they cover. I guess not, in fact I know not and as I posted above it's also ones that work in that location normally. It's also in excess of two hours each way for my medical. And anyway it was brought up about the 60 minute rule or does that only work one way.

 

[CC 72100]

Do our contingency managers work a full day when they cover. I guess not, in fact I know not and as I posted above it's also ones that work in that location normally. It's also in excess of two hours each way for my medical. And anyway it was brought up about the 60 minute rule or does that only work one way.

I'm guessing you've seen all the diagrams from that day? I've not, bit I doubt you have either.

So 2 hours travelling each way, medical last 2 hours max, 2 hours back? 6 hours from book on to book off doesn't sound too bad?

60 minute rule should apply, but would be based on normal home location. What if, perhaps, they sign the length of a route, but they're only operating trains at one end of the route (not the end they're based at) - how do you comply with Hidden regulations if you have a lengthy job in those circumstances?

And I'm not sure railway booked hotels are all that, I've stayed in some for training before and they're often bang average at best. Plus I'd rather avoid a night away personally (but not all will be the same!)

 

[baz962]

I'm guessing you've seen all the diagrams from that day? I've not, bit I doubt you have either.

So 2 hours travelling each way, medical last 2 hours max, 2 hours back? 6 hours from book on to book off doesn't sound too bad?

60 minute rule should apply, but would be based on normal home location. What if, perhaps, they sign the length of a route, but they're only operating trains at one end of the route (not the end they're based at) - how do you comply with Hidden regulations if you have a lengthy job in those circumstances?

And I'm not sure railway booked hotels are all that, I've stayed in some for training before and they're often bang average at best. Plus I'd rather avoid a night away personally (but not all will be the same!)

Over two hours and from my home. My actual depot is another 50 miles away from the medical location. Obviously haven't seen every diagram, but I get on with the contingency managers ( not complaining about them, just funny how money can be thrown everywhere except for the staff that usually do the job). And they have told me or boasted within earshot about what they get and how little they do.

 

[CC 72100]

And they have told me or boasted within earshot about what they get and how little they do.

Yeah that's probably not a great look!

I mean its not exactly the worst kept secret and I don't think there is a huge amount of conflict with frontline managers and frontline crew, especially they're normally operational anyway, but the very least that should be done is to work the train to the best of their ability ie. Patrol the train (even if no revenue), dispatch from best position for operational purposes (not convenient back cab).

 

[baz962]

Yeah that's probably not a great look!

I mean its not exactly the worst kept secret and I don't think there is a huge amount of conflict with frontline managers and frontline crew, especially they're normally operational anyway, but the very least that should be done is to work the train to the best of their ability ie. Patrol the train (even if no revenue), dispatch from best position for operational purposes (not convenient back cab).

Oh I have to be fair , they dispatch properly.

 

[brick60000]

Yet a contingency guard books on to ride around in a cab all day not even checking tickets and they get bottles of pop, sweets, sandwiches etc provided!

It does nothing to help industrial relations issues to hear there is no money in the pot, only to see it being chucked at clerical staff having a day out playing trains.

Two points here:-

1) There are some “proper” guards that do just that (I.E. never leave the cab) and many people will defend them saying that dispatch and safety critical duties are the most important parts of the role and that if they take precedence then tough. It can’t work both ways...

2) Strike days only have a skeleton service. Even with all the “perks”, the outlay cost for contingency staff overall is almost certainly less on a given day, once you consider all the striking staff that aren’t being paid…

You’ve nothing against the people that are trying to undermine the dispute? You’ve lost money whilst they’ve been paid extra.

Maybe, but it’s not their (I.e. office staff’s) dispute.

If people don’t want them to earn money, then they have a choice to not go on strike and prevent that from happening.

However, many people are suffering from the cost of living crisis. I’m sure it would be nice to be in a position where you can be principled and refuse bonus remuneration on a moral basis. But for many, that just isn’t an option for them personally.

Dispatch only and don't leave the cab.

Not all contingency guards are doing this, and I’ve seen this myself on strike days.

Saying this is no different to tarring all regular guards with that brush. And those that do this may have valid operational reasons for doing so.

 

[Horizon22]

Do our contingency managers work a full day when they cover. I guess not, in fact I know not and as I posted above it's also ones that work in that location normally. It's also in excess of two hours each way for my medical. And anyway it was brought up about the 60 minute rule or does that only work one way.

Why wouldn't they? They would be covering a crew diagram so exactly the same as any other time. If there's less to cover because its a contingency / strike timetable, then that's hardly their fault.

You are making a lot of assumptions throughout this thread.

 

[WAB]

I'm not sure where I stand about the amount for the day worked as people do need to be incentivised for working overtime. Some TOCs will pay an additional booking on fee and or an enhanced rate. Again, this is all very much par for the course. Deciding how much they get paid is difficult because some may be on more than the grade they are subbing for or some may be on less. Front line grades are notoriously on more money than 'clerical grades' and there is an open thread at the moment discussing Managers pay and how they don't get overtime so often works out less than their frontline grade.

The training involved in becoming a contingent is not an insignificant time out, and so is the duty itself. The day job doesn't stop whilst you do it, so it means longer hours when you're back on normal duties. So you do need to be offering incentives for people to take on the extra work, as you say. Personally, I'm not sure I'd ever take up the offer of being a contingent because I'm not sure how confident I would be in performing safety-critical tasks without regular opportunities to keep in practice!

Traincrew pay compared to clerical and management grades is always a bit of a sticking point, and it shows in the ability or lack thereof to retain people, especially those with talent, in those roles. There is the usual animosity between those on both sides of course.

They also get a hotel.

Contingency diagrams are not always going to work out neatly with the unit diagrams for whatever revised timetable has been bodged together given the combination of staff on strike. A hotel is the least that ought to be offered for working away from the office and with odd hours.

Plus they don't do anything bar the bare minimum. Dispatch only and don't leave the cab.

1. You probably wouldn't want to unleash contingents on the general public
2. They are merely following in the footsteps of a proportion of guards out there who are invisible to the public haha