Northern managers bonus, from MEN

[pippinmoo]

Just seen this on Manchester Evening News web site


Rail operator Northern gives managers £1,800 bonus for keeping region's trains running

Rail operator Northern gives managers £1,800 bonus for keeping trains running

But move angers staff who haven't had a pay rise in four years

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

The North of England's biggest train operator has angered unions by handing its managers £1,800 bonuses while refusing to give drivers a pay rise.

Publicly-owned Northern Trains says it has made the extra payment "in recognition of the significant contributions made in managing contingency planning and delivery of our business plan".

An internal message by a senior manager - and seen by The Northern Agenda politics newsletter - says the payment recognises the "superb efforts" of frontline managers who have been "relentless, constantly scrutinised, working with ambiguity and keeping us safe and compliant".

Not good when front line staff work hard maybe they should get it aswell

 

[Horizon22]

Lots of inaccuracies in there. There's no way that all managers "worked from home, by Zoom, throughout the pandemic". And even if some did, that was the guidance at the time. Lots of managers had to come to work, just like everyone else. The article also seems to skew that somehow front-line and middle managers are somehow to blame for Northern's strikes! Whilst yes, ALL staff should have had a pay deal, no point shouting down one group just because another hasn't had anything. That's a union dispute anyway, with many managers not in (although some represented by TSSA who have settled) in a union.

Also see that this bonus doesn't include senior managers:

In a post on Northern's internal intranet system seen by The Northern Agenda Chris Jackson, the firm's Regional Director responsible for drivers, conductors, stations said the 'additional payment' had not been given to the highest level executive managers or directors.

And as for:

Staff are also angry after learning that managers at Northern have been paid £250 a day extra to help keep trains running on strike days.

That's probably payment for doing additional roles like contingency dispatch and guard duties to keep a skeleton service running.

Not all management are evil, parasetic money suckers!

 

[185143]

Lots of inaccuracies in there. There's no way that all managers "worked from home, by Zoom, throughout the pandemic". And even if some did, that was the guidance at the time. Lots of managers had to come to work, just like everyone else. The article also seems to skew that somehow front-line and middle managers are somehow to blame for Northern's strikes! Whilst yes, ALL staff should have had a pay deal, no point shouting down one group just because another hasn't had anything. That's a union dispute anyway, with many managers not in (and often not allowed) to be in a union.

Also see that this bonus doesn't include senior managers:



And as for:



That's probably payment for doing additional roles like contingency dispatch and guard duties to keep a skeleton service running.

Not all management are evil, parasetic money suckers!

It will be, for sure.

Many will percieve it as a bribe to undermine the strikes however!

 

[Horizon22]

It will be, for sure.

Many will percieve it as a bribe to undermine the strikes however!

Perhaps. But many "contingency" staff were trained for exactly that reason.

 

[InkyScrolls]

"Staff are also angry after learning that managers at Northern have been paid £250 a day extra to help keep trains running on strike days."

This £250 is paid even if the strikes are called off, which is where the ire arises from.

 

[Neptune]

This £250 is paid even if the strikes are called off, which is where the ire arises from.

Have you got a source for this or is it messroom wibble?

 

[PupCuff]

Have you got a source for this or is it messroom wibble?

At our place it would depend on when the strike gets called off. There would be a minimum notice period 'after the daily sheets were posted' so to speak, after which you'd only be able to be stood down with mutual agreement. It was the same when I was frontline staff fwiw.

It also isn't helpful for ASLEF to go on about managers working from home during covid, as there was a good and extremely close working relationship between management and the TUs over the pandemic to deliver the safest possible working environment. They do therefore know that managers were frequently running around ragged to try and get extra messroom space, do the risk assessments, plan things like spare at home arrangements, supporting employees who were concerned about vulnerability etc, dealing with any ad-hoc issues that arose. There isn't a button on MS Teams that summoned the Covid Fairy.

It sounds as though this has come out of the recent pay talks so if TSSA have successfully negotiated a bonus then good on them. Nothing stopping RMT or ASLEF asking for the same thing but of course pay talks with those unions are less well advanced at this stage.

 

[43066]

Interesting that the DfT has allowed TOCs to make bonus payments to people in management when there’s apparently no money for the plebs who actually operate the service, and turned out throughout Covid to do so.

If that doesn’t show how political this dispute is then nothing ever will!

The article also seems to skew that somehow front-line and middle managers are somehow to blame for Northern's strikes! Whilst yes, ALL staff should have had a pay deal, no point shouting down one group just because another hasn't had anything.

This point is widely accepted, to be fair. Everyone in the industry knows that this dispute isn’t really between operational grades and management, of course that point would be lost on a clueless journalist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2023 ==

At our place it would depend on when the strike gets called off. There would be a minimum notice period 'after the daily sheets were posted' so to speak, after which you'd only be able to be stood down with mutual agreement. It was the same when I was frontline staff fwiw.

That makes sense - and is fair enough.

 

[brick60000]

This £250 is paid even if the strikes are called off, which is where the ire arises from.

And so it should be, within reason. Just as frontline staff would be paid if their shift was cancelled at the last minute.

Interesting that the DfT has allowed TOCs to make bonus payments to people in management when there’s apparently no money for the plebs who actually operate the service, and turned out throughout Covid to do so.

The DfT has also allowed TOCs to give drivers and other grades a pay rise. But the unions don’t want to sign up for it because of the strings attached. Not saying that’s right or wrong, but the fact is there is money on the table.

The tone here frustrates me though, as it implies that managers don’t “actually operate the service”. I know Train Planning managers (for instance) that were routinely working 18hr days on management contracts, getting zero overtime payment, to rewrite the plan every five seconds throughout Covid. So I will always jump to their defence when anybody suggests managers don’t do any “actual work”.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Have you got a source for this or is it messroom wibble?

Worth asking! But yes, I do have a source - a member of the Leeds conductor management.

 

[scrapy]

It sounds as though this has come out of the recent pay talks so if TSSA have successfully negotiated a bonus then good on them. Nothing stopping RMT or ASLEF asking for the same thing but of course pay talks with those unions are less well advanced at this stage.

Pretty sure that's not the case as then the statement made by management that TSSA accepted the same deal that the RMT and ASLEF rejected would be false because the deal offered to TSSA was then different if it included a bonus.

 

[PupCuff]

Pretty sure that's not the case as then the statement made by management that TSSA accepted the same deal that the RMT and ASLEF rejected would be false because the deal offered to TSSA was then different if it included a bonus.

The RMT and ASLEF deals didn't get past the RDG though, the TSSA one got through RDG to company level so it would have been at that stage that this stuff would have had to be agreed. I'm not sighted into what the discussions are at Northern though.

 

[43066]

The DfT has also allowed TOCs to give drivers and other grades a pay rise. But the unions don’t want to sign up for it because of the strings attached. Not saying that’s right or wrong, but the fact is there is money on the table.

This is rather disingenuous. There has been no offer of a nice “thank you” bonus, with nothing expected in return, and there has been no “money on the table” for pay rise that doesn’t include significant Ts and Cs changes that haven’t been imposed on other sectors.

The tone here frustrates me though, as it implies that managers don’t “actually operate the service”. I know Train Planning managers (for instance) that were routinely working 18hr days on management contracts, getting zero overtime payment, to rewrite the plan every five seconds throughout Covid. So I will always jump to their defence when anybody suggests managers don’t do any “actual work”.

But they don’t actually operate the service in the physical sense. That is a factual statement, and any “tone” is something you’ve read into my comment yourself. I don’t get into the one upmanship between operational and non operational grades, but I can assure you it goes both ways. Plenty of non operational staff are blinded by what drivers earn but wouldn’t be willing or able to put up with the shift work and the compromises they come with the role.

If people choose to work 18 hour days with no overtime, more fool them. Especially when train planners are paid pretty poorly to begin with.

 

[Bluejays]

Pathetic statement from Aslef. These managers who have received the bonuses aren't the people refusing to give front line workers a rise. Needlessly divisive and nonsense statement from Aslef. I'd hope and imagine a lot of their members will be feeding back to the union that they want the idiot responsible sent back to whatever nursery they escaped from

 

[Tractor2018]

Pathetic statement from Aslef. These managers who have received the bonuses aren't the people refusing to give front line workers a rise. Needlessly divisive and nonsense statement from Aslef. I'd hope and imagine a lot of their members will be feeding back to the union that they want the idiot responsible sent back to whatever nursery they escaped from

Seriously? I'll take the bait, save anyone else.

Why would Aslef members 'feed back' on a non event that you've created yourself? It's so clear and unambiguous that Aslef have laid responsibility on the operator, and not management, in the quote from 'a spokesman' that I can only believe you've only skim read the piece or are new to reading.

 

[Bluejays]

Seriously? I'll take the bait, save anyone else.

Why would Aslef members 'feed back' on a non event that you've created yourself? It's so clear and unambiguous that Aslef have laid responsibility on the operator, and not management, in the quote from 'a spokesman' that I can only believe you've only skim read the piece or are new to reading.

There's no 'bait' to take. It's my opinion, feel free to disagree if you want. I'm an RMT member, I've been on strike and I'm seriously peeved with dft and toc higher management for their games. But I have nothing against the middle managers, they've got nothing to do with this dispute. The statement by Aslef was moronic, the pathetic line about working from home was shameful. If the rmt did similar I'd be sending an email off

 

[TreacleMiller]

There's no 'bait' to take. It's my opinion, feel free to disagree if you want. I'm an RMT member, I've been on strike and I'm seriously peeved with dft and toc higher management for their games. But I have nothing against the middle managers, they've got nothing to do with this dispute. The statement by Aslef was moronic, the pathetic line about working from home was shameful. If the rmt did similar I'd be sending an email off

They could simply to do their jobs rather than covering additional duties. Instead many have maximised there income as much as possible by covering what they are able and the operator is offering silly money to do so. Managers are driving units for a much higher rate than has been stated here.

 

[PupCuff]

They could simply to do their jobs rather than covering additional duties. Instead many have maximised there income as much as possible by covering what they are able and the operator is offering silly money to do so. Managers are driving units for a much higher rate than has been stated here.

Why? If overtime is available, you're free, and it's paid at a rate you're willing to sell your time off for, why would someone not take it? It's not like drivers, train managers et al have never milked the overtime cow to maximise their income is it?

Some management staff want to just work their booked week and go home, some want to do all the paid overtime they can get their hands on. No different to front line staff in that regard.

In any case, the bonus payment by Northern it would seem is not linked to whether the management grade staff involved have worked any contingency shifts.

 

[Darandio]

They could simply to do their jobs rather than covering additional duties. Instead many have maximised there income as much as possible by covering what they are able and the operator is offering silly money to do so. Managers are driving units for a much higher rate than has been stated here.

And why shouldn't they?

 

[Horizon22]

They could simply to do their jobs rather than covering additional duties. Instead many have maximised there income as much as possible by covering what they are able and the operator is offering silly money to do so. Managers are driving units for a much higher rate than has been stated here.

And what’s wrong with that? If the company is happy to offer a certain amount to keep the job going, so be it.

All sorts of grades have “maximised their income” when the opportunity presents!

 

[185]

And what’s wrong with that?

Because OLR money is public money.

 

[ComUtoR]

Because OLR money is public money.

What's the objection here? Should no overtime be paid to anyone because its public money or is some overtime allowed to be paid to specific people only ? What about the service itself. Do you object to paying to run services during a strike because its public money ?

We have a load of Managers out today supporting services because of the London Marathon. Granted, none are driving trains but they may be asked to or may be used to help support and direct passengers. Should they not get paid for that ?

Checking through my daily sheets. I know at least 8 Drivers who are doing rest days today. That public money is being spent to help the public. Without the overtime, the network would come to a grinding halt.

I'm not sure it matters who gets it. Just that the trains run.

 

[LowLevel]

What's the objection here? Should no overtime be paid to anyone because its public money or is some overtime allowed to be paid to specific people only ? What about the service itself. Do you object to paying to run services during a strike because its public money ?

We have a load of Managers out today supporting services because of the London Marathon. Granted, none are driving trains but they may be asked to or may be used to help support and direct passengers. Should they not get paid for that ?

Checking through my daily sheets. I know at least 8 Drivers who are doing rest days today. That public money is being spent to help the public. Without the overtime, the network would come to a grinding halt.

I'm not sure it matters who gets it. Just that the trains run.

The only objections I have are that

A) the bonuses paid to contingency managers on top of the normal wage they already receive are often very far in excess of the wages of the staff they stand in for, and very often they don't even conduct the full duties of the grade

B) when in receipt of these bonuses, plus their normal salary, they even get provided a packed lunch, whereas any and all lunch opportunities provided to us for things like full length training days were cost cut out of existence years ago When I first started it was a local deli provided a sandwich platter and snacks and it made you feel welcome. Then it got degraded to a Rail Gourmet sandwich. Then, nothing. Yet a contingency guard books on to ride around in a cab all day not even checking tickets and they get bottles of pop, sweets, sandwiches etc provided!

It does nothing to help industrial relations issues to hear there is no money in the pot, only to see it being chucked at clerical staff having a day out playing trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

Does the overtime work different then ? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about "plus their normal salary" I thought that is how overtime worked for everyone ? It's money paid on top of your salary as an additional payment.

I'm not sure where I stand about the amount for the day worked as people do need to be incentivised for working overtime. Some TOCs will pay an additional booking on fee and or an enhanced rate. Again, this is all very much par for the course. Deciding how much they get paid is difficult because some may be on more than the grade they are subbing for or some may be on less. Front line grades are notoriously on more money than 'clerical grades' and there is an open thread at the moment discussing Managers pay and how they don't get overtime so often works out less than their frontline grade.

The industrial relations thing I totally agree with. I find it quite shocking seeing where the money goes, what gets spent, which payment gets authorised, where the waste is and then "nothing in the pot" for wages. NOT forgetting that the wage issue has affected everyone at the TOCs and not just the frontline staff. Our Managers also didn't get a rise. Our 'back office clerical staff' didn't get one.

There shouldn't be such division amongst staff but the 'them and us' always tends to be the biggest cause of friction.

 

[Efini92]

There's no 'bait' to take. It's my opinion, feel free to disagree if you want. I'm an RMT member, I've been on strike and I'm seriously peeved with dft and toc higher management for their games. But I have nothing against the middle managers, they've got nothing to do with this dispute. The statement by Aslef was moronic, the pathetic line about working from home was shameful. If the rmt did similar I'd be sending an email off

You’ve nothing against the people that are trying to undermine the dispute? You’ve lost money whilst they’ve been paid extra.

 

[yorkie]

You’ve nothing against the people that are trying to undermine the dispute? You’ve lost money whilst they’ve been paid extra.

Are you saying you hold a grudge against people who take opportunities?

 

[43066]

It does nothing to help industrial relations issues to hear there is no money in the pot, only to see it being chucked at clerical staff having a day out playing trains

Indeed. For me it depends: those who are contractually required to do it, fair enough. I’m less impressed by people who go outside of their own roles just to make a bit of extra cash. If our gateline staff were on strike I’d feel pretty pathetic going in and covering their jobs on my days off, for example.

Are you saying you hold a grudge against people who take opportunities?

Are you saying you would undermine your own colleagues just to make a bit of extra cash?

 

[ComUtoR]

Indeed. For me it depends: those who are contractually required to do it, fair enough.

Some Managers are contractually obliged to cover the work.

 

[43066]

Some Managers are contractually obliged to cover the work.

Absolutely, and nobody has any right to criticise them for doing so.

 

[Efini92]

Are you saying you hold a grudge against people who take opportunities?

@43066 beat me to it