TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Wolfie]

I'm completely opposed to this and have responded accordingly.

I am most against the withdrawal of Day Travelcards as a standalone product since this is one of the very few one-ticket options which avoids TfL's stupid 'exceeded journey time' trap when spotting.

If this was marketed as a standalone Oyster product, I would be fine with the removal of paper tickets.

As a London council taxpayer l have zero interest in paying additional money to fund infrastructure to let you save money spotting. Forget that! In fact if that was the strongest argument for retaining these tickets l would submit my agreement to the proposal.

 

[cactustwirly]

What is there legally to stop me using a London terminals ticket on the Elizabeth line to Liverpool Street, heading from the west?

 

[tomuk]

What is there legally to stop me using a London terminals ticket on the Elizabeth line to Liverpool Street, heading from the west?

I stand to be corrected that that isn't a valid route as you pass through London Terminals ie Paddington already. So you would be liable for whatever sanction the RPIs felt was due.

 

[cactustwirly]

I stand to be corrected that that isn't a valid route as you pass through London Terminals ie Paddington already. So you would be liable for whatever sanction the RPIs felt was due.

But you can pass through Vauxhall, Waterloo and Waterloo East to head to Charing Cross on a London terminals ticket.
So why isn't it a valid route?

 

[Tetchytyke]

But you can pass through Vauxhall, Waterloo and Waterloo East to head to Charing Cross on a London terminals ticket.
So why isn't it a valid route?

Same reason why you can’t travel past City Thameslink in either direction.

 

[cactustwirly]

Same reason why you can’t travel past City Thameslink in either direction.

Which is?

 

[Starmill]

Which is?

That Farringdon isn’t a member of London Terminals?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Which is?

The simplest explanation is “because you can’t”. Both cross-city routes have the same restriction.

I believe it’s because Farringdon isn’t a London Terminal, in the same way Tottenham Court Road etc are not London Terminals.

ETA: beaten to it by @Starmill

 

[Starmill]

The simplest explanation is “because you can’t”. Both cross-city routes have the same restriction.

I believe it’s because Farringdon isn’t a London Terminal, in the same way Tottenham Court Road etc are not London Terminals.

ETA: beaten to it by @Starmill

Indeed. If the question were if a ticket from, say, Greenhithe to London Terminals is valid to London Liverpool Street (EL) then I would say that it were.

 

[MikeWh]

Indeed. If the question were if a ticket from, say, Greenhithe to London Terminals is valid to London Liverpool Street (EL) then I would say that it were.

Except I'm not sure that it is. The 'core' runs all the way from Paddington to Abbey Wood.

 

[Starmill]

Except I'm not sure that it is. The 'core' runs all the way from Paddington to Abbey Wood.

Indeed but this doesn't appear to be written down anywhere, as @cactustwirly was no doubt getting at. The stations which are members of London Terminals are actually defined. TfL don't like it but unless the ticket is routed Not Elizabeth Line or a geographic restriction applied it's unlikely that it actually wouldn't be permitted.

 

[jon81uk]

It only takes one open gateline, or one missed standalone validator, or one abandoned journey after touching in for people to fall foul of the system and be charged a maximum fare. Once that happens once or twice, it puts people off and they stick with Travelcards.

99% of those missed touches are automatically corrected and refunded though.

 

[Starmill]

99% of those missed touches are automatically corrected and refunded though.

It's true for Contactless, but missed touches being corrected automatically with Oyster is very difficult.

 

[Haywain]

99% of those missed touches are automatically corrected and refunded though.

And a good few will be quite deliberate.

 

[island]

But you can pass through Vauxhall, Waterloo and Waterloo East to head to Charing Cross on a London terminals ticket.
So why isn't it a valid route?

The "rule" is that when using a ticket to London Terminals, once you reach a London terminal you can continue to travel to further London terminals, but not to any station that is not a London terminal.

No I don't know where this is written down; I recall it being posted here some time ago.

I guess the maximum would be 6: Vauxhall, Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink.

 

[JonathanH]

No I don't know where this is written down; I recall it being posted here some time ago.

Isn't it set out here?
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-London.aspx#Terminals

'London Terminal' stations
Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a specific station. This is because the ticket may be valid to more than one London Terminal station, provided it’s on a permitted line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services. Tickets to/from London Terminals are not valid to travel on the Elizabeth line between London Paddington and London Liverpool Street.

For example, a ticket from Woking to London Terminals is valid to:

London Waterloo
London Victoria (via Clapham Junction)
London Bridge
London Blackfriars
City Thameslink
London Charing Cross
London Waterloo East
London Cannon Street (via London Bridge)

It would not be valid to, for example, London Euston or Paddington as this would not be on the line of route and would involve crossing London using another mode of transport, such as the London Underground or London Buses.

The exception to this is where there are National Rail journey opportunities that include a choice of London Terminal stations on the Thameslink route between London Bridge, London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and London St Pancras. For these Thameslink journeys, the London Terminal stations that you can use with a London Terminals ticket, will be determined by whether your journey will start / finish north or south of London as follows:

<maps not pasted>

Tickets which restrict travel on services of a specific train company or some special fares may be valid only to a named London Terminal station, e.g. London Kings Cross.

List of London Terminals

The list of London termini stations, defined as 'London Terminals' for ticketing purposes are:

London Blackfriars
London Cannon Street
London Charing Cross
London Euston
London Fenchurch Street
London Kings Cross
London Liverpool Street
London Bridge
London Marylebone
Moorgate
London Paddington
St Pancras International
London Victoria
London Waterloo

In addition, the following stations, whilst not technically a London terminus are considered to be 'London Terminals' for ticketing purposes

City Thameslink
Vauxhall
London Waterloo East
Old Street (on journeys starting north of London and via Kings Cross St Pancras only)

Please note:

Tickets issued to or from 'London Terminals' are only valid as described above, except if travel is allowed on Southeastern High Speed services (see below).

Shoreditch High Street is not considered to be part of 'London Terminals'
Tickets for travel on High Speed services

Customers with tickets with an origin or destination of 'London Terminals' and routed "Plus High Speed" are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and:

Farringdon
City Thameslink
London Blackfriars
Elephant & Castle
London Bridge

 

[Meerkat]

And yet TfL happily subsidise the tube from bus fares. People in Amersham essentially get super cheap commuter rail off the backs of long suffering suburban London bus passengers, many of whom live miles from a tube station.

Isn't this entirely the wrong way round? AIUI pre Covid the Tube made significant profits that were used to cross-subsidise London buses?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just gone on to make representations on this, and the only opportunity seems to be to ask questions. Am I missing something, or do all representations need to be phrased as questions?

 

[RJ]

99% of those missed touches are automatically corrected and refunded though.

That's a surprisingly good inference rate for journeys then given elsewhere it's quite a lot lower than that. The people who say they don't want to use Oyster or Contactless because of maximum fare charges must all be in the unlucky 1%!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I am most against the withdrawal of Day Travelcards as a standalone product since this is one of the very few one-ticket options which avoids TfL's stupid 'exceeded journey time' trap when spotting.

Thank you to the three who answered my earlier question.

Now... please may I ask what are these other one ticket options that don't fall foul of the journey time limits?

 

[Alex365Dash]

I've just gone on to make representations on this, and the only opportunity seems to be to ask questions. Am I missing something, or do all representations need to be phrased as questions?

TfL changed it in the evening of the first day of the consultation so now all representations need to be phrased as questions.

 

[davews]

I guess the maximum would be 6: Vauxhall, Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink.

In my experience the when travelling Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge the gateline at London Bridge swallows my paper London Terminals ticket.
(but on your continuation to Blackfriars of course you wouldn't need to go through the gateline so guess it is OK to continue)

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL changed it in the evening of the first day of the consultation so now all representations need to be phrased as questions.

Thanks. Fairly easy to put "Why doesn't TfL consider X" or "Why doesn't TfL do X" but that does seem a sign they are getting a lot of dissent and don't want to listen to it!

 

[bakerstreet]

The frustrating thing about the maximum journey times, and the 2 x max fares charged in such circumstances, is that TfL state that they limit you to reconciling only 3 such maximum fares in any month.

I usually opt for paper day travelcard where possible for this reason.

On Oyster, one delay which takes you beyond the journey time TfL expects and you’ve used up 2 of your 3 lives.

This is really easy to do, particularly when using London Overground as part of the journey, or when an OSI joins two journeys together without you realising.

When an OSI joined my two journeys together, I had walked from Embankment to Waterloo, met a colleague, we then continued together to our meeting.
It was only when I consulted my app that I realised I was stll on my original journey and time was running out!
Had I been inspected en route on SWR I might have also risked a penalty fare.
So I alighted at Wimbledon, touched out and touched in, and problem averted. But only just - by about 5 mins.
But it was a faff and it’s only because I checked my app that I realised i had to do this.

I would like a day travelcard to be available as an Oyster product. You can travel and don’t need to think.

(The day cap still attracts penalties on top of the cap).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't entirely understand why maximum fares don't contribute to an all zone cap. It's not like (bar maybe Watford Jn) you could do anything that didn't come under that.

TBH I think the system is often too complex for its own good, caused mostly by trying to implement a fare system designed for zonal paper tickets on a contactless system. And Project Oval isn't going to make that any better; a totally new system really needed to be devised for that.

 

[jon81uk]

On Oyster, one delay which takes you beyond the journey time TfL expects and you’ve used up 2 of your 3 lives.

If there is a delay then you can claim compensation refund instead anyway.

 

[bakerstreet]

If there is a delay then you can claim compensation refund instead anyway.

Yes I agree that’s true, but, unfortunately - unlike delay repay TOCs - only a delay when it’s within TfL’s control is refunded.

So flooding, heat, wind, passenger action etc will not be included.
And on the Overground, only a delay of 30 minutes or more counts.

A combined Tube and Overground journey, delayed by 10-15 mins on tube and 25 mins on Overground (easily done) results in no delay refund.

So whatever the cause of the 2 x Maximum fares, once it’s happened then later in the month, should it happen again, you will face forfeiting one of those maximum fares.

Anyway I accept that my wish is a personal preference!

 

[jon81uk]

Yes I agree that’s true, but, unfortunately - unlike delay repay TOCs - only a delay when it’s within TfL’s control is refunded.

So flooding, heat, wind, passenger action etc will not be included.
And on the Overground, only a delay of 30 minutes or more counts.

A combined Tube and Overground journey, delayed by 10-15 mins on tube and 25 mins on Overground (easily done) results in no delay refund.

So whatever the cause of the 2 x Maximum fares, once it’s happened then later in the month, should it happen again, you will face forfeiting one of those maximum fares.

Anyway I accept that my wish is a personal preference!

Has that situation actually ever happened? The average user will probably get one or two incomplete journey a year and probably never have a maximum journey time issue. It’s not something I’ve ever come across in fifteen years of using TfL.

I would expect if you couldn’t get compensation refund but you got a maximum fare and called TfL and it’s clear there was flooding etc affecting the journey they would reset it to the correct fare even if you had somehow done two more maximum fares that month. But realistically that is such a rare niche situation.

Incomplete journeys have happened a few times due to having to change into Greater Anglia at Seven Sisters where there is no gate line before the Overground platforms and then I finish outside TfL zones. But log into the website and correct it to finish at Seven Sisters and I’m all good.

 

[island]

In my experience the when travelling Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge the gateline at London Bridge swallows my paper London Terminals ticket.

It would, although behaviour of gatelines does not determine ticket validity.

(but on your continuation to Blackfriars of course you wouldn't need to go through the gateline so guess it is OK to continue)

Indeed.

 

[Richardr]

I don't entirely understand why maximum fares don't contribute to an all zone cap. It's not like (bar maybe Watford Jn) you could do anything that didn't come under that.

TBH I think the system is often too complex for its own good, caused mostly by trying to implement a fare system designed for zonal paper tickets on a contactless system. And Project Oval isn't going to make that any better; a totally new system really needed to be devised for that.

What about those who tap in using contactless, or even worse an Oystercard, but go to the likes of Luton or Gatwick Airports?