Overuse of "Waiting at Signal" button?

[zwk500]

Do you? How? If it was that obvious it couldn’t be kicked about.

Because if a train is, say, 10 minutes late due to a points failure (NR Pays) but then gets 10 further minutes late due to a train problem that required a circuit breaker reset or something (TOC pays), the TOC will try very hard to get all the consequential delay put to the original points failure, not the second train failure.

It’s rather an incentive to fix stuff

That was the idea in theory.

 

[Annetts key]

My priority at a fault should be ”lets fix that” not “lets make sure I get a good clear photo so my manager can make p-way take the blame and the delay.”

Yeah, since mobile devices with cameras have been issued to signalling technicians, they have filled up with more and more photos of point slide chairs, sleepers, and other P.Way infrastructure.

It does not matter what the S&T team think the problem may be, you get told to take photos regardless. I once asked why they don’t trust the team, the answer came back that the photos are used as evidence, as the other parties don’t believe it.

Also keep in mind that not all P.Way (track) infrastructure is owned or maintained by Network Rail.

A very important point is that every second the S&T are messing about taking photos, is a second that we are not fixing anything AND a second that is being consumed in the limited time available in the line block between trains (which may be as little as only five minutes). And if the signaller has stopped trains to allow the S&T to “get in”, trains may be getting further delayed while photos are taken…

But you say, it only takes a couple of seconds to take a photo. Yeah, but it’s not just one, it’s a photo of every slide chair that’s rusty or lacking lubrication. And if there are shadows, you have to find a good angle in order to take a half decent photo. Or ask another team member to shine their torch to illuminate the item you are taking a photo of.

From my experience, S&T faulting teams now spend between one and three hours dealing with the “paperwork” or the electronic or computer equivalent, including adding photos, selecting photos, telling fault control about the failure, writing a shift report and sending emails.

And then there is the internal reporting of defects that have been discovered. A couple of years ago, a manager asked a team to check some defect reports. Some were ten years old. When checked on site, all the required work was still outstanding. Even the simple stuff like providing the correct signage on an equipment hut door (yes, this is minor). But it’s a similar story when an item of equipment is found to be operating out of specification or in need of renewal, but is still just about functioning. You know it will continue to degrade and at some point in the future, cause a failure. But you are not allowed to fix it there and then. It has to be reported and go in the job bank. Then wait for the company to work it’s way through the job bank. It’s then a gamble if it gets allocated to a team before it fails and causes delays…

 

[Falcon1200]

There is a difference between looking at ways to improve performance and the needless delay attribution culture where you kick around delays because of the cost, not to improve performance.

Yes, 'delay attribution' is often taken to mean the whole process, which actually consists of two things; Investigating and recording delays and their causes, which will always be necessary no matter how the railway is organised, and the performance regime where delays are dissected to the nth degree and any possible avenue taken to dispute them.

We all know why the train was delayed.

Not always, the most difficult delays to investigate are those where a train ends up say 6 minutes late, and affects other services, but has incurred several sub-threshold (less than 3 minutes) delays which will not be generated through Trust, or investigated, until reactionary delays occur.

So let me make it crystal clear. Of course the reasons for a train being delayed or cancelled (including part cancelled) should be investigated. I have no problem with the principles of this part of the system.

Agree 100%, of course.

But the rest of it, where all parties blame each other and try to wriggle out of paying for it is a total waste of resources.

It‘s an incentive to try to pass the buck.

Agree with both the above, although I am not sure that disputes would totally disappear if the railway was one organisation, they would just be between departments rather than companies.

An example of how the dispute process could be, shall we say, manipulated:
Train fails on the main line due to loss of air, has to be assisted to clear the line, much disruption results. Delays attributed to train fault.
Hours, sometimes days, later, Train Operator disputes the incident on the basis that the train had struck an object, so the delays are now Network Rail's.
But what was the object, large enough to damage a train, but which no Driver reported seeing (before or after the incident), or in the case of the failure, striking? Why was Network Rail not advised of this object so that the line could be examined? Sometimes we would send staff out to do just that, which was a waste of everyone's time.

Such incidents occurred more than once.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Do you? How? If it was that obvious it couldn’t be kicked about.

Delays get kicked around because that's easier than dealing with the issues.
Delays also get kicked around in the hope that the other side don't have time to deal with it, thereby getting lumbered with it

 

[LAX54]

Can only say what I do, as I’m no longer an instructor but if it’s a random signal, I press it straight away as per my manager telling me not to wait a minute or two! If I see the section is blocked somehow, I don’t press it at all and if I’m going from red to red then I will use my common sense wether or not to press it at the first red, but never at the following reds. As far as I’m concerned, the signaller knows I’m there and the SG has recorded the delay for attribution purposes. Never, ever press it whilst still moving. That’s just arrogant.

Its not unknown to get SG when a train is passing a double yellow at our location ! yet when passing a green, where they should have a mximum of a DY (routing) just silence until they stop at the signal giving the 'wrong' route !

 

[Javelin_55]

The issue is that they don't attribute properly because they're more concerned about managing their 'delay minutes payment' budget than getting accurate reports to create targeted investment/renewals plans.

Worth pointing out (before *all* attribution staff are maligned) that there are different levels of delay attribution, the first of which (Level 1) investigate delays on day 1 based on immediate cause. They are not senior managers and have no personal stake in the minutes allocated. However they are generally so understaffed that they don't have time to investigate every delay. Managers further into the process have even less time and will assume that everything attributed to an incident is correct, looking only at the supposed cause. Thus big incidents become magnets for surrounding delays and is the main cause for disputes. If you're a responsible party, would you accept an incident of 1000 minutes when only 400 are correct?

 

[zwk500]

Worth pointing out (before *all* attribution staff are maligned) that there are different levels of delay attribution, the first of which (Level 1) investigate delays on day 1 based on immediate cause. They are not senior managers and have no personal stake in the minutes allocated. However they are generally so understaffed that they don't have time to investigate every delay. Managers further into the process have even less time and will assume that everything attributed to an incident is correct, looking only at the supposed cause. Thus big incidents become magnets for surrounding delays and is the main cause for disputes. If you're a responsible party, would you accept an incident of 1000 minutes when only 400 are correct?

I used to work for a train planning team that shared resource with the Freight Delay team, I do appreciate the conditions for the frontline delay attribution.

 

[Midlands5678]

SG SG SG, wait 5 minutes SG!

 

[dk1]

SG SG SG, wait 5 minutes SG!

 

[Egg Centric]

Its not unknown to get SG when a train is passing a double yellow at our location ! yet when passing a green, where they should have a mximum of a DY (routing) just silence until they stop at the signal giving the 'wrong' route !

Would you be able to do anything if you got one earlier? Presumably too late to pull route at that point till train stationary anyway? Or can it be done with train on the move?

 

[Midlands5678]

Its not unknown to get SG when a train is passing a double yellow at our location ! yet when passing a green, where they should have a mximum of a DY (routing) just silence until they stop at the signal giving the 'wrong' route !

Its not unknown to get SG when a train is passing a double yellow at our location ! yet when passing a green, where they should have a mximum of a DY (routing) just silence until they stop at the signal giving the 'wrong' route !

 

[ComUtoR]

Its not unknown to get SG when a train is passing a double yellow at our location ! yet when passing a green, where they should have a mximum of a DY (routing) just silence until they stop at the signal giving the 'wrong' route !

When a Driver gets a wrong route. What do you expect in this situation ? Should they stop at the junction signal; where they can then be correctly routed. Or should they stop just passed the green (in this case) ? Neither situation warrants an SG (yes, I know why we do it)

Potentially the Driver doesn't know they have been wrong routed. Should the Signaller send a stop message to the Driver to prevent the route being taken when they pass the Green ?

 

[LAX54]

When a Driver gets a wrong route. What do you expect in this situation ? Should they stop at the junction signal; where they can then be correctly routed. Or should they stop just passed the green (in this case) ? Neither situation warrants an SG (yes, I know why we do it)

Potentially the Driver doesn't know they have been wrong routed. Should the Signaller send a stop message to the Driver to prevent the route being taken when they pass the Green ?

They won't know on many routes, but some a branches may be approach controlled, so where they are expecting to see a DY in the distance they will see a green, and know it's wrong, an SG will alert the Signaller, simply by drawing his attention to the train, who could then call the driver (contact sig), they driver may call, and then the route can be taken back, and reduce delay to a minimum, or of course the driver may well wait unti it stops at the green.
The last thing the driver wants is to 'pass' the green, even by a minimal distance !
If its an electric towards an unwired road, and the signaller notices before the train gets there, he will take the signal back to red regardless

 

[skyhigh]

Its not unknown to get SG when a train is passing a double yellow at our location ! yet when passing a green, where they should have a mximum of a DY (routing) just silence until they stop at the signal giving the 'wrong' route !

We are specifically instructed at our TOC to stop at the signal that gives the incorrect route, and only then contact the signaller. We are to observe the signal is put back then clears with the correct route.

an SG will alert the Signaller, simply by drawing his attention to the train, who could then call the driver (contact sig), they driver may call, and then the route can be taken back, and reduce delay to a minimum, or of course the driver may well wait unti it stops at the green.

Unless in an emergency we're not allowed to use the GSMR on the move, which I guess is part of the reason we have to stop at the junction signal before contacting to avoid the signaller calling us on the move.

 

[ComUtoR]

, an SG will alert the Signaller,

Which is the incorrect use of SG.

The last thing the driver wants is to 'pass' the green, even by a minimal distance !

The last thing the Driver wants is to receive an incorrect route. . If they do pass the green and stop at the junction signal, I'd say that technically they haven't taken a wrong route. Can the road always be taken back and reset or are there circumstances where passing the green is game over ?

If its an electric towards an unwired road, and the signaller notices before the train gets there, he will take the signal back to red regardless

Why not send a stop message ? Putting the road back doesn't stop the train. If you already pass at green then the signal steps down to Red, you are suddenly reducing the warning distance and may result in the train going past. A stop message will get the Driver to hit the brakes pretty hard and stop. Not forgetting that signal sighting is also an issue.

 

[Annetts key]

Can the road always be taken back and reset or are there circumstances where passing the green is game over ?

From a technical point of view, a signaller can cancel a route at any time, no matter where the train is. This is a requirement in case a signal needs to be put to danger in case of an incident.

The following describes the general arrangements. As ever with existing signalling systems, in some areas, the operation may vary depending on the age and design of the interlocking. Further, this does not apply to mechanical interlocking.

The signaller cancelling the route does not mean that the route locking (including approach locking) will release. Once a proceed aspect has (or should have been) displayed to a driver, the approach locking will become effective. This holds the route locking so that no points can be moved ahead of the train or manually operated level crossing can be opened to road traffic.

If the train stops before passing the relevant signal (the junction signal), after a set time (typically between 2 minutes to 6 minutes) the approach locking will time out. Thus the route locking will become free, and hence release the points and/or level crossings. Now the signaller can call a different route.

If the train passes the relevant signal (the junction signal), the train detection (track circuit or axle counter) will hold the route locking in the locked state. This situation will be maintained (* see note) until either, the train continues and clears the signal section in the normal direction. Or the train sets back so that the relevant track circuit or axle counter section(s) become clear.

* note - some interlocking systems, especially where shunting may take place and it was specified at the time the signalling system was designed, may have extra circuitry to release route locking if a track circuit or axle counter is occupied continuously for a set time. The time delay being set so that it’s reasonably likely that the train has come to a halt.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers for the reply. We have had circumstances where the Driver passes the Green vice DY and has then been told the route can't be reset and they have to take the wrong route; even if they haven't passed the junction signal.

 

[sw1ller]

I’ve gone passed a green only to see it step down to single yellow (for the correct route) before. So it can be done, luckily I was stopping at a station before the junction anyway so the brakes were already in. The reason to stop at the signal is to compose yourself, call the signaller and get the route sorted then fill out a RT3185 too. Now I know many of us will be looking at ways to alert the signaller without causing a fuss but you can’t expect every driver to have that response to something that could have potentially caused a black mark on their licence. I’d assume the driver will first be relieved they caught the wrong route, especially if it’s their first and would like a couple of minutes to get their head together. It might happen a lot in some areas but on most of my routes It’s quite rare. I’ve had 3 in 7 years, it does make you sit up and take note. I let two slide but one occasion the signaller acted very unprofessionally and I couldn’t let it go.

 

[endofthetunnel]

If you know it’s a wrong route, the signaller will appreciate knowing ASAP. The sooner the route is replaced to danger the sooner the timing out of interlocking can begin and the delays are reduced. Even if you then drive continue down to the red to fill out any paperwork.
From a signallers perspective a wrong route isn’t a failure or irregularity so no RT3185 but we would have to inform control etc

 

[sw1ller]

If you know it’s a wrong route, the signaller will appreciate knowing ASAP. The sooner the route is replaced to danger the sooner the timing out of interlocking can begin and the delays are reduced. Even if you then drive continue down to the red to fill out any paperwork.
From a signallers perspective a wrong route isn’t a failure or irregularity so no RT3185 but we would have to inform control etc

As a driver I couldnt care less about delays and how the signaller feels sorry. I simply care about preserving my driving record and keeping my job.

 

[Stigy]

As a driver I couldnt care less about delays and how the signaller feels sorry. I simply care about preserving my driving record and keeping my job.

Sometimes it’s about professionalism. Obviously the priority should always be safety, but where we’re acting safely anyway and this won’t be jeopardised, I don’t see an issue with reducing delays where we can?

 

[endofthetunnel]

As a driver I couldnt care less about delays and how the signaller feels sorry. I simply care about preserving my driving record and keeping my job.

I’m all for keeping our jobs and delays are part and parcel of it. It’s just about all being one big team and trying to keep the railway overall moving!

It’s not only the one train affected normally, there could easily be 4 or 5 in a queue over a junction getting held up - just like if there’s a situation at a station etc it’s best to know ASAP for the sake of everyone else.

 

[Neo9320]

I’m all for keeping our jobs and delays are part and parcel of it. It’s just about all being one big team and trying to keep the railway overall moving!

It’s not only the one train affected normally, there could easily be 4 or 5 in a queue over a junction getting held up - just like if there’s a situation at a station etc it’s best to know ASAP for the sake of everyone else.

This is the most sensible post I think I’ve ever seen on this forum!

One team, one vision, TRY to keep the railway moving!